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RobbyEarl
Guest
Please, show me where law removes sin. If I can do something to remove it then I need to know. Please help. amen
Why is it assumed by many here that Grace Folk live in blatant, unrepentant sin?
- Thread starter JGIG
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Its not that I believe that all "grace only" people live in constant sin. Its that this teaching is dangerous, as it can lead people to believe that they can sin as long as they believe. And I believe this because I know people personally in my life that live this way.
I have a friend who steals, manipulates people to get what he wants, lies, cheats and uses drugs/alcohol and talks about very perverted things. And if you try to tell him he needs to leave these things behind and repent and come to Him, he will tell you those same repetitious verses from the bible, "we arent saved by works, salvation comes through faith" ect ect.
And yeah those things are true, but are being taken out of context. Yes salvation comes through faith, but people act as if sinning leading to death contradicts that, therefore sin could never lead to death if you believe. But that is not biblical at all, there are verses about those who believe in vain, believers being given a place with the unbelievers, ect.
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But if you point these verses out to people who stand for "if you believe youll be saved no matter how you live", then theyll just repeat those same old verses out of context, claiming that those other verses cant possibly mean what they clearly state.
The life I came from, those same people use those teachings too. I claimed to be a Christian in my lbgt life, and I still know people in that life who claim to be Christian. If I tell them my testimony, and what the bible says, theyll say "no thats not right, we are saved by faith".
Whether or not anyone will accept it, this teaching can very much lead people to believe its okay to live in rebellion of God, as long as you believe in God.
And for the record, I dont believe that you are saved by works, those whod claim I do only say so to twist my words for the sake of their argument. I believe we are saved by grace, but I believe that the rules are up to God, and not up to us, and I believe in whats in the bible. God will not place anything wicked before Him. And that includes those who believe in what Hes done but continue to refuse His word.
I have a friend who steals, manipulates people to get what he wants, lies, cheats and uses drugs/alcohol and talks about very perverted things. And if you try to tell him he needs to leave these things behind and repent and come to Him, he will tell you those same repetitious verses from the bible, "we arent saved by works, salvation comes through faith" ect ect.
And yeah those things are true, but are being taken out of context. Yes salvation comes through faith, but people act as if sinning leading to death contradicts that, therefore sin could never lead to death if you believe. But that is not biblical at all, there are verses about those who believe in vain, believers being given a place with the unbelievers, ect.
'
But if you point these verses out to people who stand for "if you believe youll be saved no matter how you live", then theyll just repeat those same old verses out of context, claiming that those other verses cant possibly mean what they clearly state.
The life I came from, those same people use those teachings too. I claimed to be a Christian in my lbgt life, and I still know people in that life who claim to be Christian. If I tell them my testimony, and what the bible says, theyll say "no thats not right, we are saved by faith".
Whether or not anyone will accept it, this teaching can very much lead people to believe its okay to live in rebellion of God, as long as you believe in God.
And for the record, I dont believe that you are saved by works, those whod claim I do only say so to twist my words for the sake of their argument. I believe we are saved by grace, but I believe that the rules are up to God, and not up to us, and I believe in whats in the bible. God will not place anything wicked before Him. And that includes those who believe in what Hes done but continue to refuse His word.
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RobbyEarl
Guest
The teaching promotes sin. we all sin and fall short. the question is what is the object of our faith. Faith properly placed will produce good fruit and a closer walk with Him. Those who have eyes to see and ears to hear let them see and hear. Amen
I don't think anyone is arguing that relying on grace equates to living in blatant unrepentant sin, after all, we're all saved by grace. But some 'folks' associate grace with once saved always saved, and you can't decouple faith and repentance from grace. The OSAS crowd relies solely on grace, which is often construed as a license to sin. When we develop the mind-set that Jesus didn't just die for my sins, but so that I can indulge in sin, then we mock grace and become a hypocrite... jmo
My own understanding of this is that many who are grace only are ignoring the direct teaching of Jesus Christ in the Godpels. That is they ignore that the law is still valid but notin the rabbinical manner. It is to be observed with faith, mercy and justice. If we keep these three points in mind when observing the law we cannot avoicd but to observe it lawfully.
Mercy alone is enough it seems, but justice and faith in Jesus should do the rest. To delineatee all or to be asked to is unnfair since each person will have a nuance of difference in understanding due to each's own experience in coming to Jesus Christ.
If all understand that Jesus Christ suffererd and overcame all the temptations we have had individudally, then perhaps they will come to grips with grace and law for they are not sepaerable. Even the mention of grace is declaring that we need to kn ow the law in order to know just how much we are forgiven, living in grace as children of obedience and not more living in licentiousness as children of disobedience.
Mercy alone is enough it seems, but justice and faith in Jesus should do the rest. To delineatee all or to be asked to is unnfair since each person will have a nuance of difference in understanding due to each's own experience in coming to Jesus Christ.
If all understand that Jesus Christ suffererd and overcame all the temptations we have had individudally, then perhaps they will come to grips with grace and law for they are not sepaerable. Even the mention of grace is declaring that we need to kn ow the law in order to know just how much we are forgiven, living in grace as children of obedience and not more living in licentiousness as children of disobedience.
Before I was saved that's exactly how I saw it. I'd sin than say God forgives me and kept on doing it. I don't remember if it was stupidity or denial but luckily I've seen the error of my ways
You are right it can appear like a merrigo round.
But this is not repentance, it is serial acknowledgement of a problem without understanding
or dealing with it.
Applying grace where you ignore it is happening at all is even worse, because that is stopping
acknowledgement that there is even a problem.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
1. Just because someone can use it to live in sin (meaning they have not repented) does not mean it allows one ot live in sin.
2. OSAS does not rely solely on grace, that is a false insinuation. It relys on repentance which leads to SAVING FAITH which is granted ONLY because of Gods GRACE "for by grace we HAVE BEEN (not might be) SAVED!
3. Anyone who believes jesus not only died for my sin, but so that I can indulge in sin has not repented, Has no real saving faith, and according to Jude. has turned the grace of God to licentiousness. Which means they are no more saved then the legalist who is trying to earn salvation (even if he denys that is what he is doing. )
These are the ones who engage in Willful sin... It's not just sin.. It is sin with a in your face, rebellious, unrepentant attitude towards God... These ones do not have the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ..
Others though who shall from time to time sin because of they are still human with all the faults that being human entails, but hate their sin and are repentant shall be covered by the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ all their days...
The Law does not remove sin.. It only reveals to us that we are hopeless sinners in need of the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ..
The Law revealed our Problem..
Jesus revealed the Solution.
Paul taught the opposite to you. He said 'when sin grew, grace much more abounded, so that as sin reigned unto death, grace reigned through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.' Grace would more than triumph. It is GOD Who is acting in grace.
Immediately he raised someone's objection. 'shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?' That demonstrates he knew that his teaching at first gave that impression. But he immediately denied it, not on the basis that his teaching was misunderstood, but on the basis that true Christians would not behave that way because they were in Christ.
Amen...Valiant.
If people don't accuse us of saying that it's ok to sin all you want now because of the gospel of the grace of Christ - then we have not preached the gospel that Paul preached.
Being accused of saying that we can now sin all we want is a good sign that the true gospel is being preached and not a watered down works-based religion that actually denies the work of the Lord Jesus Christ for us.
If people don't accuse us of saying that it's ok to sin all you want now because of the gospel of the grace of Christ - then we have not preached the gospel that Paul preached.
Being accused of saying that we can now sin all we want is a good sign that the true gospel is being preached and not a watered down works-based religion that actually denies the work of the Lord Jesus Christ for us.
are you suggesting that God will act in grace and will fail.? He saves from beginning to end by grace. And He cannot and will not fail. John 6.39; I corinthians 1.8-9; phil 2.6; etc
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ladylynn
Guest
And it just goes to show how our old thinking has such a hold on us it can almost be unthinkable to accept the grace offered IN Christ because of our feeling so unworthy. Any idea that says to let go of your sin and guilt sounds to the human mind and heart like they are dismissing sin and not realizing how bad it is and how bad they are.
But in truth., accepting the huge payment that Jesus made IS giving Him the credit and glory due Him for our 100% unworthiness and inability. We can't be good/meet the standard of God without Jesus. This is not only FOR salvation but AFTER salvation. We were saved by grace through faith and that is how we must continue to walk. This kind of mind set will allow the believer to walk in newness of life.
Many Christians become like those poor souls encased in a man made religion that keeps trying to appease God. This God they see who insists on their sacrifices. So they cry, cut themselves, go away in deep torment and sorrow thinking somehow this shows God how they see themselves and it will please Him.
When in fact the Christians who do this are effectively putting aside Christ's power in their lives by trying to be their own power. They are putting aside the very ONE Who made their salvation possible and Who will make their works acceptable because they will be the fruits of the Spirit not the fruits of the flesh.
They don't see the true God Who gave us the ULTIMATE sacrifice that is 100% worthy to more than pay for alllllll the sins of the world. And the grace for us to live out Christ today while we behold Him.
When we behold "us" we are not going to be able to have those fruits of the Spirit coming out of us to be to the praise and glory of His name.
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I got to laugh. Ofcourse sin is not ok, but if it is forgiven sin, even before you commit it,
what the heck, you do not know why you do it, it is self to sort it out, that is Jesus's job,
so let it rip.
I mean no one would ever preach this, but this is the ethic behind the teaching....
what a farce of righteousness, love and purity. It is more like lets say you are a slave to
sin and rub you face in it and just leave you to rot, would be a better summary.
That type of thinking will always come when the true gospel of the grace of God is preached. This is what makes God's grace "hyper" ( - if I can use that term in a good sense and not in a derogatory way as some love to do to disparage the message of the love and grace of God towards us )
When we preach the gospel of the grace of Christ and no one says "What?...are you saying we can just go out and sin because of grace?" - if no one says that to us when we are preaching the grace of God. Then we have not preached the gospel like Paul did.
The very nature of the gospel leads the carnal mind to think that it means we can sin all we want because of grace and this is also what the natural mind that some Christians live by...which is what they hear when they hear the true gospel being preached that grace believers are saying it's ok to sin all you want now because of grace.....
The reality is what is being said is the complete opposite of what those listening with their natural minds think is being said.
We don't need to water down the gospel because it might get mis-understood as it takes away the full strength of the completed and awesome work that our Lord Jesus Christ did for all of us.
The answer to shall we sin so that grace may abound is in Romans chapters 6 and 7. Then Chapter 8 talks about walking by the Spirit and that we are in fact in the Spirit and NOT in the flesh.
When we preach the gospel of the grace of Christ and no one says "What?...are you saying we can just go out and sin because of grace?" - if no one says that to us when we are preaching the grace of God. Then we have not preached the gospel like Paul did.
The very nature of the gospel leads the carnal mind to think that it means we can sin all we want because of grace and this is also what the natural mind that some Christians live by...which is what they hear when they hear the true gospel being preached that grace believers are saying it's ok to sin all you want now because of grace.....
The reality is what is being said is the complete opposite of what those listening with their natural minds think is being said.
We don't need to water down the gospel because it might get mis-understood as it takes away the full strength of the completed and awesome work that our Lord Jesus Christ did for all of us.
The answer to shall we sin so that grace may abound is in Romans chapters 6 and 7. Then Chapter 8 talks about walking by the Spirit and that we are in fact in the Spirit and NOT in the flesh.
if one does not 100% keep this standard: do not miss the mark, fall short of a Biblical standard, know to do good and do all the time, because knowing to do so and not doing so is sin, then they are sinner. there is no " sin lists " there is no " little sin, big sin ". one is either a sinner or not. one sin every 20 years makes one unfit for the Kingdom. God's standard is perfection.
also, read the Sermon on the Mount. if one does not hold these standards 100% of the time, they cannot truthfully say they do not sin. we do not excuse sin, we know how deep and evil it is. and that is why many of us do not flippantly say " I don't sin ".
also, read the Sermon on the Mount. if one does not hold these standards 100% of the time, they cannot truthfully say they do not sin. we do not excuse sin, we know how deep and evil it is. and that is why many of us do not flippantly say " I don't sin ".
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I had a thought, like a vision. Why do people go to preachers who believe in Health, wealth,
Jesus only has good intentions for you, focus on the good things, and ignore everything else.
What is the internal conversation of a wealthy man?
I deserve this wealth
I can keep this wealth it is mine
I have success because of God
I am going to heaven and this gravy train is never going to stop
Now what makes a wealthy man wake up with a heavy sweat?
I am going to die.
My sins will catch up with me.
It is all pointless and nothing will last.
My health is failing and mortality is finally catching up with me
Now which of these two views is Jesus preaching.
Which will keep the rich man happy in his delusion and which shake him up into
action today?
And these preachers get paid serious money to continue to flatter the rich and powerful
just like the prophets like Balaam. And we are the enemy, because we will stop this
gravy train, completely, dead. So we must be eliminated and the wealth church will
conquer the world, and everything will be rosy, and the superhuman christians will reign
with Christ and heaven on earth will be ushered in. Yer sure thing, lol
Jesus only has good intentions for you, focus on the good things, and ignore everything else.
What is the internal conversation of a wealthy man?
I deserve this wealth
I can keep this wealth it is mine
I have success because of God
I am going to heaven and this gravy train is never going to stop
Now what makes a wealthy man wake up with a heavy sweat?
I am going to die.
My sins will catch up with me.
It is all pointless and nothing will last.
My health is failing and mortality is finally catching up with me
Now which of these two views is Jesus preaching.
Which will keep the rich man happy in his delusion and which shake him up into
action today?
And these preachers get paid serious money to continue to flatter the rich and powerful
just like the prophets like Balaam. And we are the enemy, because we will stop this
gravy train, completely, dead. So we must be eliminated and the wealth church will
conquer the world, and everything will be rosy, and the superhuman christians will reign
with Christ and heaven on earth will be ushered in. Yer sure thing, lol
Who are the wealthy?
Everyone typing into this forum. Just having this level of access defines you as wealthy.
But the wealthy always say they are poor and look to the next big guy up the chain.
But it is all a lie of the enemy and it keeps you enslaved, and ties everything you have into
the world and its ways.
Everyone typing into this forum. Just having this level of access defines you as wealthy.
But the wealthy always say they are poor and look to the next big guy up the chain.
But it is all a lie of the enemy and it keeps you enslaved, and ties everything you have into
the world and its ways.
Here is a great post from JGIG from another post that states what is happening sometimes.
Quote:
This is a really good point: "From the responses all over this forum, it is plain to see that people do not understand grace; therefore they pick apart anything they view as a threat to their understanding as though it were an attack on the gospel itself."
To a person, I can confidently say that each one who has come out swinging hard against so-called 'Hyper-Grace' cannot accurately articulate what the Grace position actually is.
This includes the theologian Dr. Michael Brown, the one who coined the term, 'Hyper-Grace', with whom I've conversed online 3 or 4 times. When the misrepresentations that he was promulgating online were pointed out to him, using quotes from his book and then presented with what 'Hyper Gracers' actually teach, he suddenly became very busy and could not/would not discuss the issues further.
CONSISTENTLY we see statements given as facts about Grace that we do not believe nor do we teach. Furthermore, those who rail against us 'quote' teachers, but only what they've heard others who are against those teachers say those teachers have said, but won't go to the source to see what those teachers have actually said, claiming they 'don't have time for that'. Well if you don't have time to check your sources, bow out. You have NO business spreading inaccuracies.
I've done the dance against true heresy - the modern Judaizers of the Hebrew Roots Movement. I have most of an entire site addressing the false beliefs of the HRM, and when refuting a false belief, not only do I make sure that I have a thorough understanding of what they actually believe from many sources within the movement, but I also make sure to quote, providing links and context to the reader to those sources so that they may consider the evidence and decide for themselves. That is not happening here.
Grace777x70 addresses one tactic used and put it this way so well in another thread, regarding the straw-man approach:
That happens a LOT in this debate, indicating that those who are heresy hunting the Grace of God don't really understand the issue. I read this quote earlier today from an article posted on FB:
I have tons more respect for someone who understands the issues and simply disagrees, but much less respect for those who demagogue without understanding simply to reinforce their position. When someone demagogues, they show that their penchant is more for their position than for what is TRUE.
-JGIG
UnQUOTE:
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...e-deeper-look-hyper-stuff-16.html#post2723706
Quote:
This is a really good point: "From the responses all over this forum, it is plain to see that people do not understand grace; therefore they pick apart anything they view as a threat to their understanding as though it were an attack on the gospel itself."
To a person, I can confidently say that each one who has come out swinging hard against so-called 'Hyper-Grace' cannot accurately articulate what the Grace position actually is.
This includes the theologian Dr. Michael Brown, the one who coined the term, 'Hyper-Grace', with whom I've conversed online 3 or 4 times. When the misrepresentations that he was promulgating online were pointed out to him, using quotes from his book and then presented with what 'Hyper Gracers' actually teach, he suddenly became very busy and could not/would not discuss the issues further.
CONSISTENTLY we see statements given as facts about Grace that we do not believe nor do we teach. Furthermore, those who rail against us 'quote' teachers, but only what they've heard others who are against those teachers say those teachers have said, but won't go to the source to see what those teachers have actually said, claiming they 'don't have time for that'. Well if you don't have time to check your sources, bow out. You have NO business spreading inaccuracies.
I've done the dance against true heresy - the modern Judaizers of the Hebrew Roots Movement. I have most of an entire site addressing the false beliefs of the HRM, and when refuting a false belief, not only do I make sure that I have a thorough understanding of what they actually believe from many sources within the movement, but I also make sure to quote, providing links and context to the reader to those sources so that they may consider the evidence and decide for themselves. That is not happening here.
Grace777x70 addresses one tactic used and put it this way so well in another thread, regarding the straw-man approach:
It's like some saying "The sky is blue...isn't it lovely?"...instead someone comes and says "What?..you are a false teacher ..the sky is not green...everyone knows it's blue...."
That happens a LOT in this debate, indicating that those who are heresy hunting the Grace of God don't really understand the issue. I read this quote earlier today from an article posted on FB:
"As any debate club veteran knows, if you can't make your opponent's argument for them, you don't truly grasp the issue." (source)
I have tons more respect for someone who understands the issues and simply disagrees, but much less respect for those who demagogue without understanding simply to reinforce their position. When someone demagogues, they show that their penchant is more for their position than for what is TRUE.
-JGIG
UnQUOTE:
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...e-deeper-look-hyper-stuff-16.html#post2723706