Women Pastors? Help me.
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Nothing about "lead" in either passage. Nothing about "mixed assembly" either. 
My "church" is a mixed assembly. "Usurp authority" sounds like "leading" to me.
But each to his own interpretation? Ouch!! Oh! - I don't think interpretation is ultimately up to us, is it?
I said I was leaving, but . . . I am still very much trying to figure out these verses, but I refuse to just interpret them based on the culture around me!
What you say is true, it is written that man should lead women. However, it is also written that man should love God with all their heart, souls and might! If God cannot find a man after his own heart, shall he allow his creation to perish? Or will he not use another to speak his word? Is salvation and baptism only for men then? Or is it not for all? For who shall say whom God shall save and who he will not? Who is worthy to be the judge of his brother and sister? Who proclaims they do not need the Christ as thei savior, for he is perfect in all his ways? Who says God will not chose to save a gay person? Is their sin any worse then yours? For if the wages of sin is death? No matter how much you have sinned or what you have done. The payment due is the same. Shall you tell God who is worthy of his mercy? Then shall you also tell God who is worthy to carry His truth on their lips? What do you say of Esthet then?
You decry our "own interpretation"... as you make yours.
Samuel23 used the exact words, "lead" and "mixed assembly" stating that the scriptures were "clear" when neither term is in the passages quoted. This means that he has interpreted the verses to mean those things. I understand what he is trying to say, and not only do I not agree with it, but I really don't appreciate his threats against those who disagree with his interpretation.
I am well aware of what the verses say... in isolation. I don't take verses in isolation and make doctrine of them.
"Usurp authority" is a poor translation... I'd refer you to Angela53510's posts on pages 5 and 7 of this thread for a more complete explanation.
Samuel23 used the exact words, "lead" and "mixed assembly" stating that the scriptures were "clear" when neither term is in the passages quoted. This means that he has interpreted the verses to mean those things. I understand what he is trying to say, and not only do I not agree with it, but I really don't appreciate his threats against those who disagree with his interpretation.
I am well aware of what the verses say... in isolation. I don't take verses in isolation and make doctrine of them.
"Usurp authority" is a poor translation... I'd refer you to Angela53510's posts on pages 5 and 7 of this thread for a more complete explanation.
The problem with that type of thinking though is, Scriptures are clear that interpretations belong to God NOT TO MEN. Therefore anyone who goes about to interpret the Word of God is wrong, and is and will be subject to the sways of satan for doing such a wicked thing. God interprets the Word of God. Men try to, and they are wrong for thinking they have the authority or the knowledge to do so. The Holy Spirit of God reveals to whom He/She will reveal. Woe to men who interpret the Word of God, for this very reason is why there are so many false doctrines today, so many different denominations.
Interpretations belong to God NOT TO MEN.
lol, i never said otherwise. But when a persons interpretation changes the plain meaning of the verse to mean something other than what it actually says, this interpretation is UNGODLY. For example there is not one verse that teaches "Once Saved Always Saved" it is the interpretations of men with a specific few verses that they interpret to mean that. This interpretation is not Godly. If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures, then you believe a false interpretation of the TRUTH, that is the TRUTH. For example all those verses the OSAS believers believe in, can't possibly be TRUE, if a persons name can be blotted out of the Book of Life? Those verses contradict the OSAS belief. Therefore that belief is incorrect. Scriptures are TRUE, what people believe is the truth can be corrupted.
If it was possible, and you have a teachable spirit, and are like the Bereans, which would examine the Word to see if what is being said is TRUE or not, ACCORDING TO THE WORD, then if it were possible forget everything you have ever been taught by man, EVERYTHING, Read the Word of God, and merely believe what it says, Don't try to change verses that you do not agree with, just believe it, and what it plainly says, then you will begin to see the TRUTH, then you will begin to see just how narrow and difficult the path that leads to Everlasting Life actually is, and then you might understand how only a very few will actually find it.
Here is a sad Truth, 98% of Christians believe a false doctrine of some sort or another. Hence the reason Those who are actually on the wide path that leads to destruction are DECEIVED believing doctrines from men, and NOT what Scriptures actually teach. How many things do you believe is TRUE, based solely on a person interpretation or even your own interpretation of verses?
Love One Another, This is how you know who has Jesus in them and who does not.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
i have read the entire Bible over 80 times in my life. i listen to it, 8 hours a work day. Which of any of my words sounds like the words of demons or devils? If you are going to assume such a thing against a Brother in the Lord, it would seem you would give the grounds to back up such an assumption, So then tell me, in anything i have said here or elsewhere that sounds like the words of demons and devils.
Tell me, which of the following things which i adamantly teach everywhere, is from satan
1) Love One Another
2) Stop obeying His enemy the devil
3) Obey ONLY your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
4) Believe Scriptures, not what men teach
5) What i teach is what God told me (no lie)
6) Interpretations belong to God, NOT TO MEN.
7) STOP SINNING.
or do you think what i teach is from devils because it is contrary to what YOU THINK is the Truth?
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Tell me, which of the following things which i adamantly teach everywhere, is from satan
1) Love One Another
2) Stop obeying His enemy the devil
3) Obey ONLY your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
4) Believe Scriptures, not what men teach
5) What i teach is what God told me (no lie)
6) Interpretations belong to God, NOT TO MEN.
7) STOP SINNING.
or do you think what i teach is from devils because it is contrary to what YOU THINK is the Truth?
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Question concerning this verse:
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children;
This part of the punishment is still ongoing given to the woman by God Himself. When did the next part of the same verse cease to exist?
and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
my question is, Where in all of Scriptures, has this part of the punishment given to women by God Himself, cease to be? Where is it written it is no longer a punishment? Where is it written that women are now excluded from this part of the punishment?
Can the Lord find a Godly woman in AMERICA? Where women have become men, and the men have become women? Women wearing the pants in the family, and men being ruled over by their wife?
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children;
This part of the punishment is still ongoing given to the woman by God Himself. When did the next part of the same verse cease to exist?
and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
my question is, Where in all of Scriptures, has this part of the punishment given to women by God Himself, cease to be? Where is it written it is no longer a punishment? Where is it written that women are now excluded from this part of the punishment?
Can the Lord find a Godly woman in AMERICA? Where women have become men, and the men have become women? Women wearing the pants in the family, and men being ruled over by their wife?
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
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Brothers and sisters, Let every persons heart decide for themselves if they chose to live by the law. Or if they chose to live by Grace. For if you are a man of law, then go pick up your stone, and stone those who break it as it is written. For you judge accordingly to the law. Just remember then, you now live by the law and therefore are subject to all aspects there in. The measure you give is the measure you get. Shall we follow one law and yet not another? Who then is perfect and shall keep all laws as written? If he can keep all laws then he certainly does not need the Christ. He alone is worthy to judge. I only know of only one such man. By the way, great history on the old church. Whoever that was, sorry, I missed your name. Yes, there was worry about those who worshiped other "gods" who were female teaching falsely. Again, great history, I must say, they would be no more a false teacher then men who did rise and teach falsely back then and even today, anyway I would say. After all, it was all men who were Pharisees who lived by the law and Tested Christ and who in turn, He corrected them. Sorry for typos brothers and sister, im on a mobile device and I am bad at typing on these things
brother, do you believe I am breaking scripture? If so, how? Because I say who besides God shall annount a priest? Did he not pick the priesthood? Did he not say go out and make deciples of all nations? Did he differentiated man or woman? Did he not tell Peter to eat what is by law unlawful to eat? Again, if God has chosen other then a man to Carry the truth into the world. Do not judge the truth by the messenger. The messenger is not important. Rather judge the message to see if it is if God.
Brothers and sisters, Let every persons heart decide for themselves if they chose to live by the law. Or if they chose to live by Grace. For if you are a man of law, then go pick up your stone, and stone those who break it as it is written. For you judge accordingly to the law. Just remember then, you now live by the law and therefore are subject to all aspects there in. The measure you give is the measure you get. Shall we follow one law and yet not another? Who then is perfect and shall keep all laws as written? If he can keep all laws then he certainly does not need the Christ. He alone is worthy to judge. I only know of only one such man. By the way, great history on the old church. Whoever that was, sorry, I missed your name. Yes, there was worry about those who worshiped other "gods" who were female teaching falsely. Again, great history, I must say, they would be no more a false teacher then men who did rise and teach falsely back then and even today, anyway I would say. After all, it was all men who were Pharisees who lived by the law and Tested Christ and who in turn, He corrected them. Sorry for typos brothers and sister, im on a mobile device and I am bad at typing on these things
Divide your posts into shorter paragraphs and they will be easier to be read and understood. For example, look at Disciple Dave's post in #828. Compare that with your post #829.
The fact of the matter is that your posts will probably get read 2 to 3 times more often if they are divided up into paragraphs and are not too lengthy (I haven't seen any lengthy ones from you yet! ). You might wish that people would read a post no matter how it looks, but the fact is that it probably won't happen!
I am just trying to be helpful - I learned from others when I first came here to CC.
You decry our "own interpretation"... as you make yours.
Samuel23 used the exact words, "lead" and "mixed assembly" stating that the scriptures were "clear" when neither term is in the passages quoted. This means that he has interpreted the verses to mean those things. I understand what he is trying to say, and not only do I not agree with it, but I really don't appreciate his threats against those who disagree with his interpretation.
I am well aware of what the verses say... in isolation. I don't take verses in isolation and make doctrine of them.
"Usurp authority" is a poor translation... I'd refer you to Angela53510's posts on pages 5 and 7 of this thread for a more complete explanation.
Samuel23 used the exact words, "lead" and "mixed assembly" stating that the scriptures were "clear" when neither term is in the passages quoted. This means that he has interpreted the verses to mean those things. I understand what he is trying to say, and not only do I not agree with it, but I really don't appreciate his threats against those who disagree with his interpretation.
I am well aware of what the verses say... in isolation. I don't take verses in isolation and make doctrine of them.
"Usurp authority" is a poor translation... I'd refer you to Angela53510's posts on pages 5 and 7 of this thread for a more complete explanation.
You say "I don't take verses in isolation and make doctrine out of them" -- Well, OK - the philosophy may sound right?? !!
What do you do then?: (1) Decide your doctrine and then (2) take the "verses in isolation that you are well aware of what they say" and then (3) change their meaning to fit your doctrine ?? LOL!!
My argument is that we must take a Scripture verse and interpret it in the context it was written - and then make clear application in our own culture.
You know brothers and sisters. Honestly I am torn on a lot of these issues. We know what God says is law. We know that we should strive to keep the law. Not in the flesh, for that is Impossible.
In the spirit. We know if we judge our brothers and sisters then that same measure is used against us. We know Christ gave us a new commandment. How can we show love to those who hate and persecute us? If we cannot show acceptance of sinners. We cannot change and save men. God convicts their hearts, he changes them. We can only show them love and compassion. Tell them the good news. Where the seed lands, it lands. That is a delimma, I am not saying we should accept Gay marriage, that is against Gods law, just like I do not say, condone murder, Or theft, or coveting. However, I am purplexed brothers and sisters. If we are all sinners, which we all are. Who know Christ died for all. Also knowing we still fail from Time to time back into sin. Who have read in scripture where in acts, the apostles didn't even finish speaking and the Holy Spirit fell on those (sinners) becoming believers. How can we in turn deny anyone the word of God? Or to say from where the word shall come from and go too?
I will say this, I would rather error on the side of love, compassion and mercy for my fellow sinning brother and sisters. Then to follow or be over bearing on the law and judgement. Because we have one judge. The Christ. Me, I am just a man lucky enough to have been saved by God. By His grace I heard the word and believed. I still stumble, I still struggle. It is even written where the apostle Paul in Romans 7 said, why do I do the things I hate. Why does he continue to sin? Maybe to keep him humble, maybe to keep me humble? Maybe to remind us all, we are All sinners and imperfect, otherwise why would Christ need to suffer? Live to you all brothers and sisters
In the spirit. We know if we judge our brothers and sisters then that same measure is used against us. We know Christ gave us a new commandment. How can we show love to those who hate and persecute us? If we cannot show acceptance of sinners. We cannot change and save men. God convicts their hearts, he changes them. We can only show them love and compassion. Tell them the good news. Where the seed lands, it lands. That is a delimma, I am not saying we should accept Gay marriage, that is against Gods law, just like I do not say, condone murder, Or theft, or coveting. However, I am purplexed brothers and sisters. If we are all sinners, which we all are. Who know Christ died for all. Also knowing we still fail from Time to time back into sin. Who have read in scripture where in acts, the apostles didn't even finish speaking and the Holy Spirit fell on those (sinners) becoming believers. How can we in turn deny anyone the word of God? Or to say from where the word shall come from and go too?
I will say this, I would rather error on the side of love, compassion and mercy for my fellow sinning brother and sisters. Then to follow or be over bearing on the law and judgement. Because we have one judge. The Christ. Me, I am just a man lucky enough to have been saved by God. By His grace I heard the word and believed. I still stumble, I still struggle. It is even written where the apostle Paul in Romans 7 said, why do I do the things I hate. Why does he continue to sin? Maybe to keep him humble, maybe to keep me humble? Maybe to remind us all, we are All sinners and imperfect, otherwise why would Christ need to suffer? Live to you all brothers and sisters
D
That's the problem here, people who try to interpret the scriptures, Jesus gave the interpretation to all they we needed to understand, so why do you try to interpret what Jesus did for you already, as scriptures interpret themselves, therefore stop trying to find scriptures to back your beliefs, instead accept the interpretations the scriptures gives, so your beliefs will back the scriptures ?
We differ in that I see these statements as consequences, not punishments. If I see my child riding his bike with no hands on the bars and tell him, "You will crash and hurt yourself" is that punishment or is it consequence? God cursed the ground and the serpent, and he spoke consequences to Adam and Eve. One's perspective on this colours the later passages significantly.
I agree with your last sentence. I look at the whole tenor of how women were treated under the old law, versus how Jesus treated them. I consider that Paul said women were to prophesy (a public speaking ministry), that Prisca was a teacher who taught Apollos, and that Junia was an apostle... among other instances. I look at the two passages Samuel quoted above, and consider that as they are presented in most English translations, they seem to contradict both Jesus and Paul otherwise... so I look deeper, past the English and my surface understanding of the context. What I discovered, and what Angela's posts explain more clearly, is that the English of these verses is misleading and possibly even contrary to the meaning in Greek.
I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I understand the desire to accept and follow the plain text, and if people simply hold their convictions and respectfully present them, I have no issue. What I do take issue with is when people attack other believers who see things differently, or consider them to be inferior/unsaved/apostate/heretical/under God's judgment. Such attitudes are unnecessary, unhelpful, and demonstrate a lack of good fruit.
I agree with your last sentence. I look at the whole tenor of how women were treated under the old law, versus how Jesus treated them. I consider that Paul said women were to prophesy (a public speaking ministry), that Prisca was a teacher who taught Apollos, and that Junia was an apostle... among other instances. I look at the two passages Samuel quoted above, and consider that as they are presented in most English translations, they seem to contradict both Jesus and Paul otherwise... so I look deeper, past the English and my surface understanding of the context. What I discovered, and what Angela's posts explain more clearly, is that the English of these verses is misleading and possibly even contrary to the meaning in Greek.
I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I understand the desire to accept and follow the plain text, and if people simply hold their convictions and respectfully present them, I have no issue. What I do take issue with is when people attack other believers who see things differently, or consider them to be inferior/unsaved/apostate/heretical/under God's judgment. Such attitudes are unnecessary, unhelpful, and demonstrate a lack of good fruit.
Hey brother and sisters. I saw this documentary on Netflix about six months ago. It was really good. Check it out if you can find it. Let me k ow what you guys think. You might have already seen it. Patterns of evidence: The Exodus. Guy come at it from an investigative aspect. It's a little long at first but gets very interesting. Especially as he uncovers scribe history and actual ruins supporting the Bible's account of history.
S
' sounds like' is the operative phrase in your statement. He is been shown that he misinterprets these Bible verses many times, but continues to use them despite the fact that they don't apply. Ask him to explain verse 39 that clearly states; "Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues."