Women Pastors? Help me.

[trofimus]

Do you have any ideas on why all translations use authority?

I am sorry, I do not know.

I looked at the Czech Bible translations and the word authority is not in any of them.
Czech Bibles translate the place as "I do not allow a woman.. to have a power over a man" or "I do not allow a women... to rule over a man".
So I do not know why the English Bibles go with the word "authority".

The word "authentein" was used in many ways:

"A perplexing issue for all is the meaning of authentein. Over the course of its history this verb and its associated noun have had a wide semantic range, including some bizarre meanings, such as committing suicide, murdering one's parents, and being sexually aggressive. Some studies have been marred by a selective and improper use of the evidence."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_Timothy_2:12#Meaning_of_authente.C5.8D

You can be interested in this Q/A, maybe:
greek - In 1 Tim 2:12, how does αὐθεντεῖν (αὐθεντεω) differ from the more commonly used ἐξουσιάζω? - Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange

 

[JosephsDreams]

It's pretty simple. The Lord told us to love our neighbors as ourselves (Matt 22:39). I am quite sure no man would want to be told he couldn't speak in church. Therefore no man should tell a woman she can't speak in church. You can't use the words of Paul to nullify the words of Jesus Christ.

Simple but fundamentally correct way in which to view this. I love fundamentals !

 

[trofimus]

You're good with the Greek, why is the word "authority" in all English translations?

This is quite an interesting document.

The Lutheran Synod requested the Commission on Theology to research this word. Their result is here:
www.lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=271

"Sometime during the spread of koine, the word authentein went beyond the Attic meaning connecting it with murder
and suicide and into the broader concept of criminal behavior. It also began to take on the additional meanings of “to exercise authority/power/rights” which became firmly established in the Greek Patristic writers to mean “exercise authority."

So my guess is that the English translations went this way because it is how the word is used in patristic writings.
There is probably no better source for the meaning of the word.

 

[hornetguy]

It is not "simply a guideline." It is one of the two commandments on which "depend all the law and the prophets." Tell the truth: Do you want to be ordered to keep silent in church?

If God ordered it, then it is up to me to obey it.

I don't understand many things that Jesus taught... but that does not negate the teaching. It simply means that I need more study, and growth... and sometimes just simply more faith.

My disagreeing with a teaching does not make the teaching invalid.

 

[Dino246]

Do you have any ideas on why all translations use authority?

Young's Literal has "nor to rule a husband".

 

[hornetguy]

at one time I would have thought the same...but being a little more familiar with how he posts, I think what he is saying, is not quite as apparent as it seems

it seems he is looking at the bigger picture and saying don't just take one verse and run with it...but get the overall feel of what Jesus said plus the rest and let them interpret each other

I would not have agreed myself otherwise

and of course he can correct anything not understood

Lauren, I agree that we are to follow that command to the best of our ability... I just don't think it pertains to this
discussion about order in worship assemblies.

Yes, we are to look at the "big picture", but if a specific teaching is given by someone inspired by God, we have to believe that we are missing something, if there appears to be a discrepancy.

And, it could very well be that I am missing something when I read "I don't permit a woman to teach..." It seems, on the surface, to be pretty straightforward, but I need to study Angela's post on it some more....

I'm certainly open to being wrong on this topic, as I haven't spent any time researching it...

It's good that it doesn't appear to be a salvation issue at all....

 

[KJV1611]

Young's Literal has "nor to rule a husband".

The NIV footnotes it as husband also because aner can mean man or husband.

ἀνήρ anḗr, an'-ayr; a primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male):—fellow, husband, man, sir.

 

[Dino246]

The NIV footnotes it as husband also because aner can mean man or husband.

ἀνήρanḗr, an'-ayr; a primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male):—fellow, husband, man, sir.

Still, the interpretation which makes the most sense to me is that Paul is addressing the proto-Gnostic teachings, in which Eve was the sole progenitor and did not sin, people traced their genealogy back to Eve (how they got past Noah I've no-ah idea!), and the women in the cult were teaching some rather improper things to the men. I'll have to dig up the source when I get home.

 

[KJV1611]

Still, the interpretation which makes the most sense to me is that Paul is addressing the proto-Gnostic teachings, in which Eve was the sole progenitor and did not sin, people traced their genealogy back to Eve (how they got past Noah I've no-ah idea!), and the women in the cult were teaching some rather improper things to the men. I'll have to dig up the source when I get home.

I would be interested to see the logic behind that theory.

 

[Eleazar]

Much has already been answered on this thread concerning the Bible's general view on this subject so I won't repeat them, except to respond to your logical claim to acccreditation based on "wonderful fruits produced".

I will just quote Jesus's words:
(Matthew 7:21) . . .Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father . . .did we not ....perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.

I understand that women often have qualities surpassing their male conterparts, but is it not obedience to Jesus that makes us a true follower of Christ ?

 

[samuel23]

Because of the way Paul wrote to the church at Corinth it appears to me that there probably were some women leaders in the church already, that would be why Paul made the point that by so doing they were taking a position of authority reserved for men(woman should not dominate over men). Paul was attempting to stop something that God did not want. In our time the Pentecostal movement of 1906 is what has really brought into the church the idea that women could be over men in church. We have a couple of famous women of the past in the Pentecostal movement that really ran with the ball of women being over men in church...and both women paid for their mistake.

 

[Dino246]

I would be interested to see the logic behind that theory.

It's from the book "Who Said Women Can't Teach" by Charles Trombley, chapter 16.

Another source, which I've only ever had on cassette, and since misplaced, suggested that "authentein" meant "to be the originator or, or to claim to be the originator of" which also fits the context well.

 

[StanJ]

Because of the way Paul wrote to the church at Corinth it appears to me that there probably were some women leaders in the church already, that would be why Paul made the point that by so doing they were taking a position of authority reserved for men(woman should not dominate over men). Paul was attempting to stop something that God did not want. In our time the Pentecostal movement of 1906 is what has really brought into the church the idea that women could be over men in church. We have a couple of famous women of the past in the Pentecostal movement that really ran with the ball of women being over men in church...and both women paid for their mistake.

https://bible.org/seriespage/1-introduction-and-background-1-corinthians

https://bible.org/seriespage/49-1-corinthians-troubled-church

https://bible.org/seriespage/7-1-corinthians-introduction-argument-and-outline

Paul was indeed attempting to stop what God did not want going on in the Corinthian Church but it had nothing to do with women taking leadership in the church.

 

[KJV1611]

https://bible.org/seriespage/1-introduction-and-background-1-corinthians

https://bible.org/seriespage/49-1-corinthians-troubled-church

https://bible.org/seriespage/7-1-corinthians-introduction-argument-and-outline

Paul was indeed attempting to stop what God did not want going on in the Corinthian Church but it had nothing to do with women taking leadership in the church.

Even if he was attempting to stop what God didn't want going on in Corinth, he is giving the attributes or expectations of a GODLY woman wouldn't you agree?

1 Timothy 2:9-12 KJV
In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
[10] But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
[11] Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
[12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

 

[hornetguy]

So, to recap (again)...

A woman is forbidden to "teach" or "usurp authority" over men...

If a woman prays or prophesies (publicly, in the assembly is assumed) she should have her head covered.

A woman is to remain silent in the assembly... apparently only during the "teaching" part... showing deference to the man.

It seems that leaves it open for women to teach, just not in the assembly.. (Priscilla)

Many churches hold that women can teach other women, or children..

I do not see any scripture that says women cannot take part in a co-ed group discussion, such as a class.

These are simply observations... any thoughts?

 

[AllenW]

Hi Devon, I don't see anything wrong with women pastors.
If they help bring people to know Jesus and help a congregation to live holier lives, then she would be doing more than a lot of men who are pastors.
Also, so many rules, everywhere, Christians tend to pick and choose which ones they want to keep and ignore the rest.
Meanwhile, they criticize others for what they do.
What about the the Council of Jerusalem?
Dietary laws were given to the Gentiles.
Who keeps them?
Who knows what they are?
Who even knows where in the Bible they are listed?
Who even cares?
Get my drift?
Don't let it concern you.
There are bigger matters in life to deal with.
God bless you.

 

[trofimus]

So, to recap (again)...

A woman is forbidden to "teach" or "usurp authority" over men...

If a woman prays or prophesies (publicly, in the assembly is assumed) she should have her head covered.

A woman is to remain silent in the assembly... apparently only during the "teaching" part... showing deference to the man.

It seems that leaves it open for women to teach, just not in the assembly.. (Priscilla)

Many churches hold that women can teach other women, or children..

I do not see any scripture that says women cannot take part in a co-ed group discussion, such as a class.

These are simply observations... any thoughts?

Seems to be a reasonable summary to me.

I would only note that we do not know if Priscilla was teaching at all. She served. Thats all we know about her?

 

[hornetguy]

Seems to be a reasonable summary to me.

I would only note that we do not know if Priscilla was teaching at all. She served. Thats all we know about her?

I think it said that Priscilla, along with her husband, Aquilla, took Apollos aside and taught him the gospel more completely....

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, [SUP][d][/SUP]an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures. [SUP]25 [/SUP]This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John; [SUP]26 [/SUP]and [SUP][e][/SUP]he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

This indicates that women CAN teach men, just not in the public assembly...

 

[hornetguy]

Hi Devon, I don't see anything wrong with women pastors.
If they help bring people to know Jesus and help a congregation to live holier lives, then she would be doing more than a lot of men who are pastors.
Also, so many rules, everywhere, Christians tend to pick and choose which ones they want to keep and ignore the rest.
Meanwhile, they criticize others for what they do.
What about the the Council of Jerusalem?
Dietary laws were given to the Gentiles.
Who keeps them?
Who knows what they are?
Who even knows where in the Bible they are listed?
Who even cares?
Get my drift?
Don't let it concern you.
There are bigger matters in life to deal with.
God bless you.

greetings...
Where, in Scripture, are there dietary laws given to gentile believers? The only one I know of is the command to stay away from consuming blood...

and, we should be very careful about giving carte blanche to anything that "brings people to Jesus"....

Some would say that hanging out in a bar, drinking and carousing with others will somehow help lead them to God, when you give them your "testimony" at the IHOP after last call... we need to realize there are scriptures that guide us in our behavior, and to dismiss them out of hand is somewhat slipshod...

 

[StanJ]

Even if he was attempting to stop what God didn't want going on in Corinth, he is giving the attributes or expectations of a GODLY woman wouldn't you agree?

1 Timothy 2:9-12 KJV
In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
[10] But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
[11] Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
[12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

That's right, and verses 11 and 12 are about her Godly relationship with her Godly husband.