Women Pastors? Help me.

[StanJ]

Thank you for the compliment! I should trust scholars? If they fearing God and obeying his word, no problem. But there a lot of them which changing the word according their own wisedom and there own doctrine.
In Math. 5:28 the matter is to have lust with an woman. You can see it in both ways. But ok i can see it also from your point.
But please tell me, how do you know that the woman in 9,20 is married? I better trust the word in the hope that the translaters not all are wrong.

I wasn't complimenting you and yes you should trust scholars, because they have earned the reputation that they have. I am not talking about false teachers or false scholars I'm talking about true Scholars and in that area they agree 95% on everything.
Again you are refusing to accept the proper context of Matthew 5:28 which you seem to do in a lot of cases just to defend your position. If you refuse to acknowledge the context of any portion of scripture where you have a predispositional bias then you will always be wrong and understanding with the Bible this telling you.
It's not the translators that are wrong it is your understanding what they write that is wrong and even given the Greek you refuse to accept that Paul does not exclude women from any part of the church. By this time most reasonable people would understand but you are so inculcated by your own pride that you refuse to acknowledge what is clear to most in Scripture and I'm not going to attempt to unbrainwash a brainwashed person.

 

[StanJ]

Which Greece Scripture is useing brothers and sisters? Post 1065 gives no answer!

Then read it again because the Greek word that is translated as brothers and sisters or brethren and or believers or friends does not have a gender, it is gender neutral.

 

[jerry2465]

and it is probably elevating your level of cognitive dissonance. In case you don't know what that means, it's that little bit of panicky feeling you're experiencing when you really have no idea about a verse of scripture that you've suddenly been confronted with that you have no bias about and have to actually use your God-given ability to reason it out and make sense of it.

I can absolutely assure you that I have not even the slightest feeling of panic, and I know exactly what those verses say. You sir are the one who should be panicking with twisting Gods word to fit your own desires. You perfectly fit the following verses. You seem pretty proud of what intellect that you feel like you have. I just pray that it will be enough for you on the day of judgement when you attempt to out wit God.

[h=1]2 Peter 3:16English Standard Version (ESV)[/h] [SUP]16 [/SUP]as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.




[h=1]2 Timothy 4:3English Standard Version (ESV)[/h] [SUP]3 [/SUP]For the time is coming when people will not endure sound[SUP][a][/SUP] teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,

 

[StanJ]

I can absolutely assure you that I have not even the slightest feeling of panic, and I know exactly what those verses say. You sir are the one who should be panicking with twisting Gods word to fit your own desires. You perfectly fit the following verses. You seem pretty proud of what intellect that you feel like you have. I just pray that it will be enough for you on the day of judgement when you attempt to out wit God.

2 Peter 3:16English Standard Version (ESV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

2 Timothy 4:3English Standard Version (ESV)

[SUP]3 [/SUP]For the time is coming when people will not endure sound[SUP][a][/SUP] teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,

Yes that's exactly what Peter says, 'hard to understand', yet you say it is straightforward and simple, which is not the case. You also refuse to deal with v15. No doubt because it enforces my point.

 

[jerry2465]

it would enforce your point if that were the only piece of scripture, but there are multiple. This thread is going nowhere. Nobody is learning anything but I think it would be beneficial to agree to disagree because if a non Christian came to this site and saw this it would definitely not be letting our lights shine, but instead it would be a good reason for them to turn away from Christianity.

 

[StanJ]

it would enforce your point if that were the only piece of scripture, but there are multiple. This thread is going nowhere. Nobody is learning anything but I think it would be beneficial to agree to disagree because if a non Christian came to this site and saw this it would definitely not be letting our lights shine, but instead it would be a good reason for them to turn away from Christianity.

There are many scriptures that corroborate my position but you don't see them because you're looking for exact wording and even the wording you support isn't exactly the wording that says women can't be pastors, you just learned that and been inculcated by that point of view. Non-christians don't come to this site very often and they definitely don't get involved in theological discussions or exegetical ones. I disagree with you in that this thread is going nowhere... it is going exactly the direction it needs to go in and that is to educate people that think the Bible is not egalitarian, as it most definitely is.

 

[VCO]

I'm pretty sure I said that to you a few pages back and yet you keep interjecting when I'm not even addressing you.
First of all I never said that I don't believe God inspired Paul.
Secondly an overseer is NOT a pastor. An overseer is more like our modern day superintendent's or bishops. You really need to pay attention to what is being discussed here and stop deflecting.

Titus 1:5-10 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] The reason I left you in Crete was to set right what was left undone and, as I directed you, to appoint elders in every town:
[SUP]6 [/SUP] one who is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of wildness or rebellion.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For an overseer, as God’s administrator, must be blameless, not arrogant, not hot-tempered, not addicted to wine, not a bully, not greedy for money,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, righteous, holy, self-controlled,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] holding to the faithful message as taught, so that he will be able both to encourage with sound teaching and to refute those who contradict it.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For there are also many rebellious people, full of empty talk and deception, especially those from Judaism.



Are you sure we are from the same planet?


The words BISHOP, OVERSEER, and ELDER are all titles for the same basic, position in the CHURCH. YES the word Pastor came into being after the Bible was COMPLETE, but IN THE CHURCH, the BOARD OF ELDERS, USUALLY HAS THE PASTOR CHAIRED AS THE CHIEF ELDER.

Bishop The word originally signified an "overseer" or spiritual superintendent. The titles bishop and elder, or presbyter, were essentially equivalent. Bishop is from the Greek, and denotes one who exercises the function of overseeing. Presbyter was derived from the office in the synagogue. Of the order in which the first elders or bishops were appointed, as of the occasion which led to the institution of the office, we have no record. The duties of the bishop-elders appear to have been as follows:

1. General superintendence over the spiritual well-being of the flock. 1 Pet 5:2
2. The work of teaching, both publicly and privately. 1 The 5:12; Titus 1:9; 1 Tim 5:17
3. The work of visiting the sick, Jame 5:14
4. Among other acts of charity, that of receiving strangers occupied a conspicuous place. 1 Tim 3:2; Titus 1:8 Peter calls Christ "the shepherd and bishop of your souls." 1 Pet 2:25

Smith's Bible Dictionary: Comprising Antiquities, Biography, Geography, Natural History, Archaeology and Literature.

 

[StanJ]

Titus 1:5-10 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] The reason I left you in Crete was to set right what was left undone and, as I directed you, to appoint elders in every town:
[SUP]6 [/SUP] one who is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of wildness or rebellion.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For an overseer, as God’s administrator, must be blameless, not arrogant, not hot-tempered, not addicted to wine, not a bully, not greedy for money,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, righteous, holy, self-controlled,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] holding to the faithful message as taught, so that he will be able both to encourage with sound teaching and to refute those who contradict it.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For there are also many rebellious people, full of empty talk and deception, especially those from Judaism.
Are you sure we are from the same planet?
The words BISHOP, OVERSEER, and ELDER are all titles for the same basic, position in the CHURCH. YES the word Pastor came into being after the Bible was COMPLETE, but IN THE CHURCH, the BOARD OF ELDERS, USUALLY HAS THE PASTOR CHAIRED AS THE CHIEF ELDER.

As you've already shown that you don't really understand the scripture that is presented to you then why bother bringing up other scripture that you don't understand either? You seem to forget that the topic of this thread is 'women pastors', and as such has nothing to do with everything you posted above.
What exactly does Ephesians 4:11 tell you? Does it say anything about these offices being restricted to men? Is there any verse in the New Testament that shows that being a pastor, ποιμένας (poimenas), is restricted to a man? No, there isn't, so as Paul says nowhere else in the New Testament that a pastor has to be a man then what exactly are you arguing?

 

[wolfwint]

So do you think that inspiration comes from a vacuum or do you not believe that God took into consideration what was going on at that time? If Paul is addressing thoughts that came from people prior to this book and we don't have those thoughts in writing, does that mean that Paul didn't address the issues?

Do you believe Pauls word are word of God? A simple yes ore no would be enough!

 

[wolfwint]

You mean except when you want to use other scripture? Again your understanding of English seems to get in the way.

You change my words in my mouth! I was talking from 1. Timothy 2, 12-14 and not from the the relationship between husband and wife in a marriage! There is a big different!

 

[wolfwint]

As you've already shown that you don't really understand the scripture that is presented to you then why bother bringing up other scripture that you don't understand either? You seem to forget that the topic of this thread is 'women pastors', and as such has nothing to do with everything you posted above.
What exactly does Ephesians 4:11 tell you? Does it say anything about these offices being restricted to men? Is there any verse in the New Testament that shows that being a pastor, ποιμένας (poimenas), is restricted to a man? No, there isn't, so as Paul says nowhere else in the New Testament that a pastor has to be a man then what exactly are you arguing?

Your are the one who is not able to show scripture for your view! If you were right then why Paul is not giving instruction for woman as he did in 1. Timothy and Titus for man? Ore does the woman dont need it? In the whole NT you find no proof that woman were Leader ore Pastor in a church. Why not? Maby because they was not?

 

[wolfwint]

Then read it again because the Greek word that is translated as brothers and sisters or brethren and or believers or friends does not have a gender, it is gender neutral.

What vers 39 has to do with the issue of vers 34-35?

 

[wolfwint]

I wasn't complimenting you and yes you should trust scholars, because they have earned the reputation that they have. I am not talking about false teachers or false scholars I'm talking about true Scholars and in that area they agree 95% on everything.
Again you are refusing to accept the proper context of Matthew 5:28 which you seem to do in a lot of cases just to defend your position. If you refuse to acknowledge the context of any portion of scripture where you have a predispositional bias then you will always be wrong and understanding with the Bible this telling you.
It's not the translators that are wrong it is your understanding what they write that is wrong and even given the Greek you refuse to accept that Paul does not exclude women from any part of the church. By this time most reasonable people would understand but you are so inculcated by your own pride that you refuse to acknowledge what is clear to most in Scripture and I'm not going to attempt to unbrainwash a brainwashed person.

Thanks again for compliment me. In the same way people argue that homosexuality is no sin. And that remarriage is ok. You ignoring 1. Tim. 2,12-14 and talking instead from vers 15 which has so far nothing to do with 12-14. As a believer who just read the Bible it is clear to see that pastor ore leadership is not for woman. You have to avoid clear sayings and to change them with unclear sayings. Not only the Scripture shows, but also the Biblical and postbiblical tradition. Since around 150 years suddenly all this is wrong. You are following the timespirit but not the Holy Spirit which would not work against his own word.

 

[proverbs35]

... to educate people that think the Bible is not egalitarian, as it most definitely is.

Now, that would be a very interesting thread topic. It could take the scope of the discussion beyond the issue of just women as pastors and into women's roles within the body of Christ (Kingdom of God) - not limited to physical churches.

 

[Dino246]

... The words BISHOP, OVERSEER, and ELDER are all titles for the same basic, position in the CHURCH. YES the word Pastor came into being after the Bible was COMPLETE, but IN THE CHURCH, the BOARD OF ELDERS, USUALLY HAS THE PASTOR CHAIRED AS THE CHIEF ELDER.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to shout (write in all caps). As to "usually has the pastor chaired as the chief elder", this is not found in Scripture.

"Pastor" is from the Latin for "shepherd", which is English for "poimenas". So, your assertion that "pastor" came into common use after the canon was closed is groundless. What we can agree on is that the office of pastor as we know it today is a later development, likely heavily influenced by the RC role of priest.

 

[wolfwint]

There are many scriptures that corroborate my position but you don't see them because you're looking for exact wording and even the wording you support isn't exactly the wording that says women can't be pastors, you just learned that and been inculcated by that point of view. Non-christians don't come to this site very often and they definitely don't get involved in theological discussions or exegetical ones. I disagree with you in that this thread is going nowhere... it is going exactly the direction it needs to go in and that is to educate people that think the Bible is not egalitarian, as it most definitely is.

Stan, now I understand it seems to me you are an egalitarian, you argue as one. Then further discussion makes no sense. But really i am doubting that you are filled with the Holy Spirit! He would not work against His own Scripture. Hope you will find the truth, instead missleading others with you false doctrine.

 

[StanJ]

Do you believe Pauls word are word of God? A simple yes ore no would be enough!

I have already answered this more than once. Please pay attention.

 

[StanJ]

Stan, now I understand it seems to me you are an egalitarian, you argue as one. Then further discussion makes no sense. But really i am doubting that you are filled with the Holy Spirit! He would not work against His own Scripture. Hope you will find the truth, instead missleading others with you false doctrine.

I am a Christian who has beliefs that are both egalitarian and complimentarian. Men and women do have roles in the family but there are no predetermined rules for men and women in the Bible as far as ministering in the corporate church is concerned.
In my opinion the Holy Spirit works throughout our lives to make His written word real and understandable to us but the sad reality is that many are inculcated in their beliefs because they have never received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit nor been taught the truth. I found the truth way back in 1971 when I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior and the truth never changes. We may learn new things along the way in life but that is good because we should be growing as the Bible tells us we should.
2 Cor 3:18
[FONT=&quot]And we all, with unveiled faces reflecting the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another, which is from the Lord, who is the Spirit.[/FONT]

 

[Stephen63]

So, what have we accomplished with 1099 posts?

What shall we accomplish in another 1099 posts?

Probably the same that was done in the first.

 

[StanJ]

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do (or say) nothing.”― Edmund Burke (in a letter addressed to Thomas Mercer). Bracketed words are mine.