Women Pastors? Help me.

[VCO]

Not as simple as you would like us to believe seeing as though the issue on this thread is 'women pastors' and Jesus never spoke about women pastors nor were they ever mentioned in the law. Nice try though, but I personally find this type of tactic very disingenuous.
FYI, all was fulfilled when Jesus rose again from the dead. Jesus was speaking to Jews not to gentiles.
What I find amazing is that you probably know this and yet you attempt to mislead people by making this type of post. Seems you're willing to do and say anything to try to prove a false teaching? I'm quite dismayed!

We Believe it IS THAT SIMPLE, and Believe it whole heartedly is every bit as applicable, EVEN WHEN REFERRING TO THIS SUBJECT.

GOD SAID IT, IT BELIEVE, AND THAT IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.

I do not have to twist and complicate a different meaning into His Word to make it say what I want it to mean.

And Heaven and Earth are STILL HERE.

Matthew 5:18-19 (NKJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Therefore that till all is fulfilledis a reference to the destruction of the atmosphere and this old earth we stand on, just before the New Heaven and New Earth (the Eternal State) replace them. SEE, you even have to change the meaning of that phrase to make your twisting of the meaning of the following verses to fit what you want it to mean.


1 Corinthians 14:33-35 (NIV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints,
[SUP]34 [/SUP] women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.
[SUP]35 [/SUP] If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

1 Timothy 2:9-12 (GWT)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] I want women to show their beauty by dressing in appropriate clothes that are modest and respectable. Their beauty will be shown by what they do, not by their hair styles or the gold jewelry, pearls, or expensive clothes they wear.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] This is what is proper for women who claim to have reverence for God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] A woman must learn in silence, in keeping with her position.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I don't allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. Instead, she should be quiet.

 

[StanJ]

We Believe it IS THAT SIMPLE, and Believe it whole heartedly is every bit as applicable, EVEN WHEN REFERRING TO THIS SUBJECT.

GOD SAID IT, IT BELIEVE, AND THAT IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.

I do not have to twist and complicate a different meaning into His Word to make it say what I want it to mean.

And Heaven and Earth are STILL HERE.

Matthew 5:18-19 (NKJV)
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Therefore that till all is fulfilledis a reference to the destruction of the atmosphere and this old earth we stand on, just before the New Heaven and New Earth (the Eternal State) replace them. SEE, you even have to change the meaning of that phrase to make your twisting of the meaning of the following verses to fit what you want it to mean.


1 Corinthians 14:33-35 (NIV)
33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints,
34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.
35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

1 Timothy 2:9-12 (GWT)
9 I want women to show their beauty by dressing in appropriate clothes that are modest and respectable. Their beauty will be shown by what they do, not by their hair styles or the gold jewelry, pearls, or expensive clothes they wear.
10 This is what is proper for women who claim to have reverence for God.
11 A woman must learn in silence, in keeping with her position.
12 I don't allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. Instead, she should be quiet.

Who is we?
The devil believes in what God says, that means nothing. You have to know by the Spirit and by proper exegesis.
What about 1 Tim 2:15? Do you believe that or will you just avoid it because you cannot deal with it by your same logic as the previous six verses?
It's probably best that I follow Paul's admonition in 1 Corinthians 14:38 and stop repeating things you're incapable of learning.

 

[followjesus]

So Im basically looking for some closure on this subject.

When I was 5 years old the first church I ever started attending was lead by A female Pastor. I was a regular for about 10 years. The pastor and My grandmother were best friends and she Preached at her funeral when he passed tragically.
I was saved at this church and witnessed many life changing things.

To me she was called. The absolutely incredible ways I would see God move through our church services and the amazing ways she would minister to us and help us really never made me doubt here calling. She was and still is my biggest inspiration as far as everything I hope to be one day.

So after reading that you can now imagine how hard it is to read passages like 1 Timothy 3- "The Husband of One Wife"
and 1 Tim 2:12 "I do not permit a women to teach nor have authority over a man"
And I also read about the Women Prophets of the Old testament like Miriam and others. And also places that speak of women prophesying.


I've had people tell me that the one I look up to the most is a false teacher because she is a women leading a church. That hurts my soul to hear things like that but I never want to argue the Scripture.

What is your take on the subject? Would you doubt someone's calling despite all of the wonderful fruit they produce?
Is our understanding of these passages wrong? Let me know what you think please.



This is the church and The Pastor I am referring to. --> Stephanie Taylor: Jesus Saves the Stripper | CBN.com (The pastor comes in later, not stephiane)

"Paul says i do not permit" He does this a couple times in scripture even saying " I not the Lord" in one place. remember paul was a pharisee beforehand and wasnt perfect by his own admission, i think he carried a bit of prejudice being a pharisee because the Law of moses was all about the man, in Christ though " neither male nor female...but Christ is all and is in all and through all."

I would say to you that if God chooses a woman to preach the gospel, open the ears because the Word is what matters not the gender.

 

[wolfwint]

It is so strange...people who promote false doctrine always claim that those who tell the truth are promoting false doctrine.

That's why, i told StanJ, that i stop posting with Him. He is an Egalitarian. And there is no base for to have a useful conversation. For both sides not, because he has an different scriptureunderstanding!

 

[wolfwint]

Just got home from work, on a 15 day run, before I get a day off. The questions you ask about, the answers would be very long but I will take, one step at a time and keep it short. Let me begin, by saying, I am not always right, yet I am not always wrong in understanding, all I can do, is share what I see, once done, it's not between you and me, it between you and the Lord. 1. Why did God create us male and female ? Great question ! God has a masculine side and a feminine side, as both sides are equally the attributes of God. As God created His masculine side, which is a man, just as God has a feminine side, which is a woman, are both sides of the attributes of God equal ? Yes. As God is never divided against Himself in any way, if He was, God would not be God. As man was given the characteristics of God's masculine side, as the woman was given the characteristics of God's feminine side, is one side of God greater than the other side, does one side of God have authority over the other side of Himself, is one side less than the other ? As man and woman, are vessels, through the vessels that man and woman are, it not about the vessels themselves, it's about the masculine and feminine side, the characteristics, of the attributes of God, that was manifested through man and woman. Can both sides speak ? Yes ! Can both sides teach ? Yes ! Can both sides Preach the everlasting gopel ? Yes ! If it were not so, then God would be a divided God, He wouldn't be God at all. God also created us as male and female, that we might multiply and be fruitful and replenish the earth, with our own kind.

Dear Dagallen, thank you for reply. But i wonder little bit from were you have that God has createt himself!
"As God created His masculine side, which is a man, just as God has a feminine side, which is a woman,...."

This I cant find in the scripture! Also it is new for me that God is male and female.
The fact that God has createt us as male and female says nothing about the role both have. The role we find in the sripture which God revealed to us. Yes he gave us an universal task: "that we might multiply and be fruitful and replenish the earth, with our own kind."
But the details we find from genesis 2,20 ff.

 

[wolfwint]

Your second question ! 2. Why didn't God chose a woman to be a Priest, King, or Apostle ? Great question ! First, a King is a male and a Queen is a female, when one set on their throne, both have the power to rule, over both gender, so that's not a good thing to ask, just as the title Priest, is not a good title to use, why ? Christ is the mist high Priest, there is no other. So you have one title that is debatable, an Apostle. Now was there any female Apostle ? That a great question and I would say, Yes ! A female Apostle that man did not accept and most men still don't accept even today. A female Apostle is where Christianity began, why a woman but not a man ?

Dear Dagallen, thank you for reply. But this not really answerd my question. I know the different between a King and a Queen! In Israels line of kings we will not find a woman as ruler. He set not a woman on the throne to rule! Also you will find in the Priest line of Aaron no Priestess (as in the sourrounding nations, which had also priestess)
And among the Apostles you can show me no example that a woman was in this function, nore during the apostolic time nore in the churchhistory till around 150 years ago!
You say yes it was, then please show me (except Junias, because this is not clear)

 

[Dagallen]

"Paul says i do not permit" He does this a couple times in scripture even saying " I not the Lord" in one place. remember paul was a pharisee beforehand and wasnt perfect by his own admission, i think he carried a bit of prejudice being a pharisee because the Law of moses was all about the man, in Christ though " neither male nor female...but Christ is all and is in all and through all."

I would say to you that if God chooses a woman to preach the gospel, open the ears because the Word is what matters not the gender.

A lot of good response's, with a lot of truth, be strong until your end, fight a good fight, for the sake of good, God bless !

 

[Dagallen]

Dear Dagallen, thank you for reply. But this not really answerd my question. I know the different between a King and a Queen! In Israels line of kings we will not find a woman as ruler. He set not a woman on the throne to rule! Also you will find in the Priest line of Aaron no Priestess (as in the sourrounding nations, which had also priestess)
And among the Apostles you can show me no example that a woman was in this function, nore during the apostolic time nore in the churchhistory till around 150 years ago!
You say yes it was, then please show me (except Junias, because this is not clear)

In your best effort, what does it mean to be an Apostle, what does an Apostle do, what is required to be an Apostle ? Just was wondering what you see ?

 

[VCO]

"Paul says i do not permit" He does this a couple times in scripture even saying " I not the Lord" in one place. remember paul was a pharisee beforehand and wasnt perfect by his own admission, i think he carried a bit of prejudice being a pharisee because the Law of moses was all about the man, in Christ though " neither male nor female...but Christ is all and is in all and through all."

I would say to you that if God chooses a woman to preach the gospel, open the ears because the Word is what matters not the gender.

Our position in heaven as SAVED SINNERS is co-equal, BUT on earth GOD CLEARLY gives us different ROLES to fulfill according to HIS WILL, including gender roles.

ARE YOU DENYING THAT THE FOLLOWING VERSES APPLY TO TODAY?

2 Timothy 3:15-17 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] and you know that from childhood you have known the sacred Scriptures, which are able to give you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.


Please NOTE, that at the time of Christ, prophecy meant to proclaim the word of GOD without error.


2 Peter 1:19-21 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] So we have the prophetic word strongly confirmed. You will do well to pay attention to it, as to a lamp shining in a dismal place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] First of all, you should know this: No prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] because no prophecy ever came by the will of man; instead, men spoke from God as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dino246]

... Please NOTE, that at the time of Christ, prophecy meant to proclaim the word of GOD without error....

Your source for this is...?

Off the hop, I would have to doubt it, considering that Agabus prophesied regarding a soon-coming famine, which did come, and about Paul's treatment at the hands of those in Jerusalem which did take place. He was foretelling, not simply "proclaiming". Paul never claimed that what he regularly did was prophesying in the synagogues and to the Gentiles, but rather preaching. Was what they proclaimed the Word of God? Yes... no argument there, but don't make the mistake of equivocating with the term.

 

[VCO]

Who is we?
The devil believes in what God says, that means nothing. You have to know by the Spirit and by proper exegesis.
What about 1 Tim 2:15? Do you believe that or will you just avoid it because you cannot deal with it by your same logic as the previous six verses?
It's probably best that I follow Paul's admonition in 1 Corinthians 14:38 and stop repeating things you're incapable of learning.

All Non-Liberal Churches believe the same on this issue. That would include conservative Evangelicals, Southern Baptists, Grace Brethren, Missouri Synod Lutheran, Mennonite Brethren Church, Free Reformed Churches of North America, Presbyterian Church in America, Orthodox Presbyterian Church, Evangelical Lutheran Synod of America, Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, The Pentecostal Mission Churches, Christian and Missionary Alliance in the USA, Roman Catholic Church, most Independent Bible Churches, Independent Fundamental Churches of America; and probably several that I missed, DO NOT ORDAIN WOMEN.

In fact, we Believe the ever increasing liberalization of Christianity and the acceptance of ordaining women, of MANY of the Churches of today, is evidence of the prophesied latter day great FALLING AWAY and the downward slide into the watered down lukewarmness of Laodiceanism.

Revelation 3:14-22 (HCSB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] “Write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: “The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God’s creation says:
[SUP]15 [/SUP] I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish that you were cold or hot.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I am going to vomit you out of My mouth.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Because you say, ‘I’m rich; I have become wealthy and need nothing,’ and you don’t know that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] I advise you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire so that you may be rich, white clothes so that you may be dressed and your shameful nakedness not be exposed, and ointment to spread on your eyes so that you may see.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] As many as I love, I rebuke and discipline. So be committed and repent.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Listen! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and have dinner with him, and he with Me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] The victor: I will give him the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I also won the victory and sat down with My Father on His throne.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] “Anyone who has an ear should listen to what the Spirit says to the churches.”

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

 

[StanJ]

That's why, i told StanJ, that i stop posting with Him. He is an Egalitarian. And there is no base for to have a useful conversation. For both sides not, because he has an different scriptureunderstanding!

That's right, because complimentarianism is not Scriptural, at least not in the way you perceive it.

 

[StanJ]

All Non-Liberal Churches believe the same on this issue. That would include conservative Evangelicals, Southern Baptists, Grace Brethren, Missouri Synod Lutheran, Mennonite Brethren Church, Free Reformed Churches of North America, Presbyterian Church in America, Orthodox Presbyterian Church, Evangelical Lutheran Synod of America, Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, The Pentecostal Mission Churches, Christian and Missionary Alliance in the USA, Roman Catholic Church, most Independent Bible Churches, Independent Fundamental Churches of America; and probably several that I missed, DO NOT ORDAIN WOMEN.
In fact, we Believe the ever increasing liberalization of Christianity and the acceptance of ordaining women, of MANY of the Churches of today, is evidence of the prophesied latter day great FALLING AWAY and the downward slide into the watered down lukewarmness of Laodiceanism.

So you speak for all these denominations? Sadly you resort to lying about these denominations because I've already posted a link that shows the Southern Baptist Convention is split on this issue.
You also leave out some of the biggest denominations in North America that ordain woman, such as;

• American Baptist Church.
• Assemblies of God – as early as 1914.
• Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada
• The Christian Church/Disciples of Christ.
• Christian Science – usually uses man and woman at services.
• Episcopal Church – began ordaining women in 1970s.
• Evangelical Lutheran Church in America – first female bishop elected in 2013.
• Presbyterian Church. DOES ORDAIN WOMEN.
• Foursquare Gospel Church Canada & USA
• Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
• American Baptist Churches USA,
• North American Baptist Conference,
• Alliance of Baptists,
• Cooperative Baptist Fellowship (CBF)
• National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc.
• Canadian Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches
• Progressive National Baptist Convention.
• Salvation Army
• Mennonite Church of Canada & USA
• Seventh Day Adventists, aand many more.

 

[wolfwint]

In your best effort, what does it mean to be an Apostle, what does an Apostle do, what is required to be an Apostle ? Just was wondering what you see ?

In the Gospels with the apostles are meant the choosen 12 Apostles;
In Acts are also meant the choosen 12 minus Judas Iskariot! Instead of him they selectet Matthias as Apostle. It seems to be other Apostles too, because Barnabas is called a Apostle(acts 14,14) and James the brother of the Lord(Galatians 1,19)
In the epistles Paul himself called to be an Apostle; Peter as Apostle ore the already choosen 12.
Except: Hebrew 3,1: Jesus is called a Apostle; Epheser 4,12 and 1. Cor. 12,28: Apostle given as a duty in a church.

What a Apostle did? teach, lead, supervising, special task (Paul) and 2. Cori.12,12:
Truly the signs of an apostle were done among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

What is required to be an apostle: personel choosen from the Lord Jesus (the 12 and Paul) and
Acts 1, 22:Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.


You see no woman among them!

 

[Dagallen]

Dear Dagallen, thank you for reply. But i wonder little bit from were you have that God has createt himself!
"As God created His masculine side, which is a man, just as God has a feminine side, which is a woman,...."

This I cant find in the scripture! Also it is new for me that God is male and female.
The fact that God has createt us as male and female says nothing about the role both have. The role we find in the sripture which God revealed to us. Yes he gave us an universal task: "that we might multiply and be fruitful and replenish the earth, with our own kind."
But the details we find from genesis 2,20 ff.

The mind of God is logic, that's the masculine side of the characteristics of one side of God. The heart of God is the emotional side of God, that's the feminine side of the characteristics of God. When it comes to God, it not about gender, just as when we are not seen as male and female, when we are one in Christ, Galatians 3:28 It's not about gender, it's just that God reveals both sides of Himself through two genders, therefore when we are one in Christ, the gender is not what it's about, it's about the characteristics of God, as God reveals one side of Himself through man, just as reveal His other side through woman. As a husband is an example of the mind of God, as the wife is the example of the heart of God, which is greater, the mind of God or the heart of God ? Neither ! As both the mind of God and the heart of God, are equal. As David took on the mind of God but David sought the heart of God, that he might become more God like. Who am I to say what God can do or can not do ? If God chose a man to speak through, He can do that, if God chose a woman to speak through, He can do that. Did God pick a woman to speak through ? Yes ! God chose a woman to speak through and that's where, Christianity begins, so why did God pick a woman, instead of man ? Because God begins with man and completes Himself in woman last.

 

[Dagallen]

In the Gospels with the apostles are meant the choosen 12 Apostles;
In Acts are also meant the choosen 12 minus Judas Iskariot! Instead of him they selectet Matthias as Apostle. It seems to be other Apostles too, because Barnabas is called a Apostle(acts 14,14) and James the brother of the Lord(Galatians 1,19)
In the epistles Paul himself called to be an Apostle; Peter as Apostle ore the already choosen 12.
Except: Hebrew 3,1: Jesus is called a Apostle; Epheser 4,12 and 1. Cor. 12,28: Apostle given as a duty in a church.

What a Apostle did? teach, lead, supervising, special task (Paul) and 2. Cori.12,12:
Truly the signs of an apostle were done among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

What is required to be an apostle: personel choosen from the Lord Jesus (the 12 and Paul) and
Acts 1, 22:Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.


You see no woman among them!

1. Does a witness of the resurrection, have a right to Pastor a church, preach and teach the everlasting gospel, which the resurrection is where Christianity begins ?

 

[wolfwint]

The mind of God is logic, that's the masculine side of the characteristics of one side of God. The heart of God is the emotional side of God, that's the feminine side of the characteristics of God. When it comes to God, it not about gender, just as when we are not seen as male and female, when we are one in Christ, Galatians 3:28 It's not about gender, it's just that God reveals both sides of Himself through two genders, therefore when we are one in Christ, the gender is not what it's about, it's about the characteristics of God, as God reveals one side of Himself through man, just as reveal His other side through woman. As a husband is an example of the mind of God, as the wife is the example of the heart of God, which is greater, the mind of God or the heart of God ? Neither ! As both the mind of God and the heart of God, are equal. As David took on the mind of God but David sought the heart of God, that he might become more God like. Who am I to say what God can do or can not do ? If God chose a man to speak through, He can do that, if God chose a woman to speak through, He can do that. Did God pick a woman to speak through ? Yes ! God chose a woman to speak through and that's where, Christianity begins, so why did God pick a woman, instead of man ? Because God begins with man and completes Himself in woman last.

It seems you are greater then God! What you are telling are out of the bible revelations. So this revelations are not from God! I believe the word of my father and not any word of man.

 

[Dagallen]

It seems you are greater then God! What you are telling are out of the bible revelations. So this revelations are not from God! I believe the word of my father and not any word of man.

Me greater than God ? You can't be serious ! And who is your father ?

 

[Dagallen]

It seems you are greater then God! What you are telling are out of the bible revelations. So this revelations are not from God! I believe the word of my father and not any word of man.

Who was a eye witness of the resurrection, according to scriptures ? Do you know ?

 

[wolfwint]

1. Does a witness of the resurrection, have a right to Pastor a church, preach and teach the everlasting gospel, which the resurrection is where Christianity begins ?

The duty as an Pastor has nothing to do with the requirement of an Apostle! But you will find also not a female Pastor in the bible and in the churchhistory. It startetet around 150 years ago! For me really a proof that woman should be Pastor is coming out of the will of man ore woman, but not from God!!
And that the mass practice it, is neither a proof for to be right nor that it is the will of God!
BTW I miss the answer from point 3 and 4!
Have a good night