Does Anyone Here Teach The Following?
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This is verse 9 from the previous chapter:
then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment
The wicked are kept under perpetual punishment until the day of judgment. Why would in the very next chapter God say he is patiently waiting on someone he is keeping in perpetual condemnation? Chapter 3 is to give the church peace when scoffers start asking them why hasn't their Christ returned. Again, it seems more to me to be addressed to a future generation since it is in regards to the return of Christ. God is patiently waiting for the elect to come to repentance. There are still more to be saved yet. This should be a comfort for us who are waiting with him and a reminder to be patient and not be shaken.
The context doesn't say elect, but the chapter itself is addressed to the beloved and from then on is referred back to as you. God is patient toward you (the beloved, the church, the elect), not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance. Just because the sentence has the words any and all, it doesn't mean any and all people because they are clearly defined by the toward you in the very first part of the same sentence.
God already knows who are his. I think you would agree with that right? He is omniscient? It would be pointless for him to have patience toward people he knows will never come to him. Context shows that the beloved (that is the church, the bride, the elect) are being addressed.
then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment
The wicked are kept under perpetual punishment until the day of judgment. Why would in the very next chapter God say he is patiently waiting on someone he is keeping in perpetual condemnation? Chapter 3 is to give the church peace when scoffers start asking them why hasn't their Christ returned. Again, it seems more to me to be addressed to a future generation since it is in regards to the return of Christ. God is patiently waiting for the elect to come to repentance. There are still more to be saved yet. This should be a comfort for us who are waiting with him and a reminder to be patient and not be shaken.
The context doesn't say elect, but the chapter itself is addressed to the beloved and from then on is referred back to as you. God is patient toward you (the beloved, the church, the elect), not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance. Just because the sentence has the words any and all, it doesn't mean any and all people because they are clearly defined by the toward you in the very first part of the same sentence.
God already knows who are his. I think you would agree with that right? He is omniscient? It would be pointless for him to have patience toward people he knows will never come to him. Context shows that the beloved (that is the church, the bride, the elect) are being addressed.
Jesus died and was not annihiliated. Death never means cease to exist but separation.
The body is dead, void of life, because the spirit has left that body. Our spirits are dead because of being separated from God. Now, being separated from God makes our spirits dead in the same manner the body is dead when its spirit leaves it. It has no will to exercise to bring life to it. In the same manner, our spirits do not have a will that can will it back to life. Only God can will it to life.
So, I see annihilation as heresy. We don't burn up and are no more. Ppl will reside in the lake of fire for as long as ppl reside in heaven.
The body is dead, void of life, because the spirit has left that body. Our spirits are dead because of being separated from God. Now, being separated from God makes our spirits dead in the same manner the body is dead when its spirit leaves it. It has no will to exercise to bring life to it. In the same manner, our spirits do not have a will that can will it back to life. Only God can will it to life.
So, I see annihilation as heresy. We don't burn up and are no more. Ppl will reside in the lake of fire for as long as ppl reside in heaven.
D
And what do you do? Glory in your arrogance and hypocrisy. Why are you better?
You remind me of a used car salesman at a sleazy outfit. Act all nice, until you find out the potential customer doesn't want what you're selling. Then you turn to be exactly what the outfit wants you to be -- sleazy.
I guess your mask fell off.
You know why I am now calling you a liar? Because you just ran down a bunch of lies about reformers based on your bitterness toward your father. If this is what you really think of your dad, you'll need a lot more work on your forgiveness skills. You're still sitting in the anger and bitterness, and take it out on who? Again, why are you better?
You remind me of a used car salesman at a sleazy outfit. Act all nice, until you find out the potential customer doesn't want what you're selling. Then you turn to be exactly what the outfit wants you to be -- sleazy.
I guess your mask fell off.
You know why I am now calling you a liar? Because you just ran down a bunch of lies about reformers based on your bitterness toward your father. If this is what you really think of your dad, you'll need a lot more work on your forgiveness skills. You're still sitting in the anger and bitterness, and take it out on who? Again, why are you better?
Sissy, you're missing what I am saying. Jesus' death, burial and resurrection actually accomplishes what it was intended to accomplish.
The bible says He rose for our justification. It does not say He rose to give someone a shot at being saved, but rose for our justification. It actually accomplishes justification. If the Christ rose for everyone, and we know not everyone will be saved, then how did He rise for their justification if they died condemned?
To be justified is to be declared righteous before God. Those the Christ rose for will be declared righteous before God.
It says also we are justified...declared righteous...by faith. It does not say we are justified when we exercise faith, but are justified by faith. So, if everybody w/o exception, has faith, then everybody w/o exception is justified. And if everybody is justified, everybody is saved.
The bible says He rose for our justification. It does not say He rose to give someone a shot at being saved, but rose for our justification. It actually accomplishes justification. If the Christ rose for everyone, and we know not everyone will be saved, then how did He rise for their justification if they died condemned?
To be justified is to be declared righteous before God. Those the Christ rose for will be declared righteous before God.
It says also we are justified...declared righteous...by faith. It does not say we are justified when we exercise faith, but are justified by faith. So, if everybody w/o exception, has faith, then everybody w/o exception is justified. And if everybody is justified, everybody is saved.
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Where does it ever say death means separation and not ceasing to exist though? Death and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire and is called the second death at the end of all things. That seems like a finality. Also, Jesus said fear not those who can destroy the body but the one who can destroy both body and soul. That again sounds like finality. Tons of other verses that make it seem like a finality too.
I haven't studied it a lot honestly. Could be heresy, but I know others who are reformed like me in every other way but this one thing. A friend of mine asked James White about it on his radio program and I wasn't satisfied with James' answer which was a bit disappointing.
Again, I don't embrace annihilation fully, but I do lean toward it more than eternal conscious torment.
Also, Jesus is God and is eternal.
It doesn't make sense to me that we are promised eternal life and the lost are never promised eternal life, but death. Do they eat of the tree of life as we will then get thrown into the lake of fire?
Honestly, I should study this because it is an important thing to understand.
I haven't studied it a lot honestly. Could be heresy, but I know others who are reformed like me in every other way but this one thing. A friend of mine asked James White about it on his radio program and I wasn't satisfied with James' answer which was a bit disappointing.
Again, I don't embrace annihilation fully, but I do lean toward it more than eternal conscious torment.
Also, Jesus is God and is eternal.
It doesn't make sense to me that we are promised eternal life and the lost are never promised eternal life, but death. Do they eat of the tree of life as we will then get thrown into the lake of fire?
Honestly, I should study this because it is an important thing to understand.
D
I'm not loving this thread much at all right now. Arrogance on both sides. Feels quite a bit like who can be more melodramatic and cruel. And I can't say which side is winning in either category.
But PennEd? Neither passive-aggressive nor drive-by. Probably one of the few smart ones because he doesn't take this post by post. (Or, he's just really good at keeping quiet at the right times, and then speaking up at the right times.)
But PennEd? Neither passive-aggressive nor drive-by. Probably one of the few smart ones because he doesn't take this post by post. (Or, he's just really good at keeping quiet at the right times, and then speaking up at the right times.)
D
No, I wasn't there. Kind of the point. NOR have you been to every other reformed church either. THE point! You're arrogance, anger, and bitterness is all based out of one church you grew up in. Worse yet, you were a kid, so not like you had a clear picture. you had a kid's picture.
And what do you do with that? Paint every Reformed like your dad.
I know my comment means nothing to you. All you're doing is unleashing your wrath on everyone who is not YOU. Has this ever been about God to you? Or was it always about selling your lemon?
And what do you do with that? Paint every Reformed like your dad.
I know my comment means nothing to you. All you're doing is unleashing your wrath on everyone who is not YOU. Has this ever been about God to you? Or was it always about selling your lemon?
Where does it say that God is patiently awaiting the "elect" to come to repentance? It's just like when Eve added a word to the commandment of God which he did not say: "ye shall not 'touch' it" . . . . God does deliver his people . . . the unjust that are reserved unto the day of judgment to be punished are those who do not come to repentance even up until the end - they will be condemned. Again, you add something that is not there "perpetual condemnation". I agree that Peter is giving the church peace against scoffers. It is a comfort to the church and to ALL that God is longsuffering and does not wish ANY to perish.
In order to be a member in the body of Christ, wouldn't one have to have already repented, turned from their evil ways and believed in the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins? And if this is true then why would God be waiting for the church to repent? (to me the elect are the church)
God already knows who are his. I think you would agree with that right? He is omniscient? It would be pointless for him to have patience toward people he knows will never come to him. Context shows that the beloved (that is the church, the bride, the elect) are being addressed.[/QUOTE]
So God foreknows ALL people . . . ? What do we do with this then . . . For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed into the image of his dear Son. . .whom he did predestinate them he also called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. . . . Oops - there's universalism lifting it's head again!
"It would be pointless for him to have patience toward people he knows will never come to him" . . . . exactly why man has free will to come to belief in his Son, Jesus Christ. Those that believe are his . . . You think maybe God is letting his church know because of the scoffers that come mocking the time that has lapsed and Christ hasn't returned yet - that time is nothing to him . . But beloved be not ignorant of this one thing . . . the Lord is not slack concerning his promise - what promise? since it goes into his longsuffering and not wanting any to perish but that all come to repentance - the promise of eternal life to those who believe . . . . the church already has that, the church has repented, the church is the elect.
In order to be a member in the body of Christ, wouldn't one have to have already repented, turned from their evil ways and believed in the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins? And if this is true then why would God be waiting for the church to repent? (to me the elect are the church)
God already knows who are his. I think you would agree with that right? He is omniscient? It would be pointless for him to have patience toward people he knows will never come to him. Context shows that the beloved (that is the church, the bride, the elect) are being addressed.[/QUOTE]
So God foreknows ALL people . . . ? What do we do with this then . . . For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed into the image of his dear Son. . .whom he did predestinate them he also called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. . . . Oops - there's universalism lifting it's head again!
"It would be pointless for him to have patience toward people he knows will never come to him" . . . . exactly why man has free will to come to belief in his Son, Jesus Christ. Those that believe are his . . . You think maybe God is letting his church know because of the scoffers that come mocking the time that has lapsed and Christ hasn't returned yet - that time is nothing to him . . But beloved be not ignorant of this one thing . . . the Lord is not slack concerning his promise - what promise? since it goes into his longsuffering and not wanting any to perish but that all come to repentance - the promise of eternal life to those who believe . . . . the church already has that, the church has repented, the church is the elect.
Jesus is immortal because he is God. We aren't. And no, I don't think he ceased to exist.
Though one thing I will probably concede to at the least is conditional immortality, but it still seems that the spirit of a lost person is promised death, not life in any form. Those that are saved are promised life.
Though one thing I will probably concede to at the least is conditional immortality, but it still seems that the spirit of a lost person is promised death, not life in any form. Those that are saved are promised life.
D
This is what I'm hearing.
It's blue.
No, it's really not. It's yellow.
No, it's blue.
Well, you see it's yellow, because it's a bright color, and (followed by several other reasons yellow is not blue.)
It's blue.
Did you hear me? It can't be blue because...
Yes, I heard you. You said it's red, but it's blue, because blue is better than red.
Well, maybe blue is better than red, but it's yellow.
Stop believing it's red.
I don't believe it's red. It's yellow.
Everyone knows it's blue, except you people keep insisting it's red.
And, frankly, although I do think it's yellow, stop telling me I think it's red. Yeesh!
It's blue.
No, it's really not. It's yellow.
No, it's blue.
Well, you see it's yellow, because it's a bright color, and (followed by several other reasons yellow is not blue.)
It's blue.
Did you hear me? It can't be blue because...
Yes, I heard you. You said it's red, but it's blue, because blue is better than red.
Well, maybe blue is better than red, but it's yellow.
Stop believing it's red.
I don't believe it's red. It's yellow.
Everyone knows it's blue, except you people keep insisting it's red.
And, frankly, although I do think it's yellow, stop telling me I think it's red. Yeesh!
