Not By Works

[FranC]

I never called anyone a cake taker......and I said I would try to watch the way I address people....and regardless...workers for are workers for....do you deny that you teach works? and my points stand....the address to the churches having their candlestick "stirred away" is not in reference to individual salvation.........so.....

I never taught works Dcon.
I've taught many children and I taught them to love Jesus and to follow His lead and to never abandon Him, even when they sin.
Some kids think they lose Jesus when they sin.

You, however, cannot deny that we MUST do as Jesus said if we're to be His disciples.
I can't argue this forever and must leave here every now and then,

But I return because it's an important discussion and one which we SHOULD, eventually, come to an Agreement.
Know why?

WE ALREADY ALL AGREE...

We're just using different words and those reading along may be finding it difficult to understand what the wording is all about.

WE SHOUD BE CLEAR, just as Jesus was very clear.

 

[PHart]

Faithful produces works of Gold, Silver and Precious Stones...

How would one describe a believer who has works of wood, hay and stubble that get burnt to a crisp yet they are still saved yet so as by fire.......?

UNFAITHFUL would be the word I would use......

Unfaithful perhaps, but in works of ministry. That is the context of 1 Corinthians 3:8-15. The work that may or may not pass through the Judgment to be a reward for the laborer in the building and field of God are the people you minister to, not your personal works of righteousness. The passage has nothing to do with a person not having works of righteousness to go along with his faith and still being saved despite having no works. The passage is about you not having raised up people in the building and field of God through your ministry who can make it through the Judgment, while you yourself are pass safely through.

How many works are needed to identify a believer......Hebrews 11 seems clear....MANY only had 1 (one) listed that proved their faith, some had more....and yet the bible makes it clear that NOT all of the saved will walk a fully faithful life constantly producing....

Right, it's not about living a fully faithful personal life of holiness. It's about being characterized as a person who lives a holy life. In general, serious Christians are noted for their holy lives. Not perfect lives, but their overall success in departing from the ways of the flesh and being characterized as such. Just as unbelievers are noted for their unholy lives. Not completely unholy lives, but lives characterized by their devotion to the flesh.

The work that characterizes the saved person is explained in Hebrews 6:9-10. It's not an 'x' number of works. It's the characteristic of loving and working for the people of God. Unbelievers do not like the church. They do not die for God's people. True believers do. Unbelievers are not characterized by their love for God and his people. Saved people are. The author of Hebrews says that is the work that accompanies salvation--love and work for the people of God.

EVEN nature itself which speaks PROVES this....

A apple tree is an apple tree from the moment it sprouts....it takes years of growth and maturity to produce...sometimes a single apple, sometimes an abundance and even after producing it may experience drought or a late frost and PRODUCE NOTHING that year...yet is still an apple tree.....the point is obvious........!

Very true. And God's people should take comfort out of this truth. I have. But the author of Hebrews speaks in the chapter I quoted above that we are not to take comfort in that truth and use it to remain unfruitful. He exhorts us to realize the assurance of our salvation by being diligent to do the works that accompany our salvation. His warning is that people who have nothing but thorns and thistles in the end will be burned up.

Seek to do what the Spirit of God is compelling you to do inside so you will not be deceived into thinking you have a salvation you really don't have. That is how we make gain assurance in our salvation--by our works. But I see too many people taking assurance of their salvation in the fact that, 'yes', it takes time for even the true fruit bearing trees to bear fruit and so they are content to never bear fruit and insist they don't have to to be saved. Oblivious to the fact that he says if you're still a non-fruit bearing tree on the day of Judgment you will be burned up, not saved.

 

[FranC]

are you the "like" police fart?

Is this necessary?

We want to call ourselves Christian....

We should, maybe , act like we are?

Maybe you're not-- can't remember your avatar.

Even if you are NOT --- be civil for goodness sake.

 

[Cee]

Amen yes, we must do the work of God!

In regard to the work we are commanded to do by Jesus...

John 6:28Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

In regard to resting from our work...

God rested from His work on the 7th day. Jesus is our Sabbath, He is our Rest. We rest from our works and we enter into His work. This doesn't mean we don't produce good works though because He is at work in us and through us.

Let's talk about the work Jesus commanded AFTER salvation.

John 13:34A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.35By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Is this our work alone though? No! It is His work. We love Him because He loved us first. It is His love in us that is working through us into loving one another. This my friends is the fruit of the Spirit.

We abide in Him, Love, so that we might display works/fruit of love. And by THIS the world knows we are His disciples.

C.

 

[dcontroversal]

This is the problem right here,



so you are saying works are necessary for salvation?

Seems to be the case hey.....either one is saved by faith or one is not saved....there is NO "in order to be saved on the day of judgment" fallacy......the bible is clear....

You acknowledge and believe in Jesus you are saved.....

 

[Desertsrose]

It is obvious you missed entirely what I was really saying.

Do you think that Abraham should have slain Isaac on the altar because "God did say to do it?"

Hi Grace,

It is important to listen to the "now" word of God. We can take an Old Covenant scripture and try to "apply it" in the New Covenant and as Jesus said we end up ruining both. He gave us the example of new wine in old wine skins.

I addressed this false teaching above.

Jesus took the OT scriptures and affirmed them, corrected the false interpretations of them and said they wouldn't pass away as long as the heavens and earth endure.

And you're saying that Jesus said we ruin both when we apply OC scripture to the NC which is pretty bold to say and is not true.

You're taking one scripture out of context making it say something Jesus never said and using that one scripture to make Jesus say that the OT scriptures have nothing for us in the here and now.

In context, the Pharisees were at work with their fasting traditions during a wedding feast.

A question came up as to why the Parisees and John's disciples fast, but Jesus' disciples were not fasting at the time of their traditions when they were fasting. Fasting wasn't the issue. Jesus said that after He died, then His disciples would fast.

The old wine skins were the traditions of the Pharisees that voided the word of God. You can't take traditions of men and pour them into the New Covenant.

The two great commands we have came from the OT. The NT commands of Jesus came from the OT. The NT is built upon the OT truths. How so untrue to say that we can't take the OT and apply it into the New Covenant. That's exactly what Jesus did.

 

[dcontroversal]

I never taught works Dcon.
I've taught many children and I taught them to love Jesus and to follow His lead and to never abandon Him, even when they sin.
Some kids think they lose Jesus when they sin.

You, however, cannot deny that we MUST do as Jesus said if we're to be His disciples.
I can't argue this forever and must leave here every now and then,

But I return because it's an important discussion and one which we SHOULD, eventually, come to an Agreement.
Know why?

WE ALREADY ALL AGREE...

We're just using different words and those reading along may be finding it difficult to understand what the wording is all about.

WE SHOUD BE CLEAR, just as Jesus was very clear.

No we don't agree Fran.....

I believe FAITH alone saves ...

You believe FAITH and works save.....

I believe ANY work or fruit is the result of the salvation and faith ONE already possesses in Christ

You seem to believe that salvation COMES at the END when you have had faith and WORKED for it..

We do not agree....nor will we....as long as you push a FAITH plus WORKS salvation.......

 

[Cee]

Interesting thing about Hebrews. It was written to people who didn't believe Jesus was enough. So they kept sacrificing animals to make up for what Jesus didn't provide. This is why Paul wrote...

Hebrews 10:26 [FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, [/FONT]no further sacrifice for sins remains[FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif],[/FONT]

[FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There is only ONE sacrifice for sins, Him.[/FONT]

 

[dcontroversal]

Interesting thing about Hebrews. It was written to people who didn't believe Jesus was enough. So they kept sacrificing animals to make up for what Jesus didn't provide. This is why Paul wrote...

Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains,

There is only ONE sacrifice for sins, Him.

Amen...a better way, a better sacrifice, a better covenant, a better priesthood, a better way etc........many fail to interpret the book in this light.......and contrary to what many push....it does not teach the loss of salvation......

 

[Sully]

1000's of pages of back and forth debate fueled by mans and woman's logic with regards to the basic component of salvation proves the genius of God's plan to make our rescue simple in terms of it's construction but horrific in it's terms of execution . 1000's of pages of absolute proof that if Jesus Christ had not done it ALL and said It Is Finished! We would be without a shred hope.

 

[FranC]

It appears everyone is saying the same thing, but let's make sure.

Here's how I see it:

1. Christ alone saves.
2. We die to the law.
3. We are reborn in Christ.
4. We are a new creation in Christ.
5. This new creation does the will of God naturally.
6. Sometimes the flesh tries to intervene.
7. We get to choose to follow flesh or Spirit, renewing of the mind.
8. As we follow Spirit we see fruit, James calls them works.
9. We see and reveal fruit/works, but only faith saves.
10. Apart from Christ we can do NOTHING, so we abide in the Vine and HIS fruit is grown through us.

We can see what a person truly believes by their gospel message.

If we say, Christ alone saves, this is what we believe.

If we say, Christ alone saves, but you better have works, we don't truly believe in the power of Christ to save and produce works. Remember the good works were prepared BEFORE us. He knows what He's doing, we don't need to add on to the gospel message, but we do need discipleship after salvation. He commands us of this.

Please note: Before Christ, we need Christ. After Christ, we need to grow up in Christ. This "growing" up process is called discipleship, maturity, and growing in the knowledge of the Lord several times in Scripture. It is this process that takes us from "fleshly/carnal minded" babes in Christ into mature believers lead by the Spirit.

Hi C

Good to 90%

The rest is words. I wish we could all use the same words.

Your list of 1-10.... good.

THEN.

We can see what a person truly believes BY HIS ACTIONS, Not by his gospel message.
I could talk all I want to, it's what I behave like and DO that counts. Remember the parable of the two sons?
Which one did the Father's will? The one who SAID he would work in the Vineyard OR the one who DID work in the Vineyard?
Mathew 21:28-32
Of course, it's the one WHO DID WORK IN THE VINEYARD...

We DO need discipleship after salvation. We could start by reading the gospels and doing what Jesus instructed us to do...

The "growing up" in Christ is NOT dicsipleship... It's called SANCTIFICATION. (I'm getting blue in the face).

We should NOT waste a lot of time saying we are babes in Christ. From the moment we become born again, we should be willing to FOLLOW our Master.

Otherwise, He's not our master...

 

[Sully]

Is this necessary?

We want to call ourselves Christian....

We should, maybe , act like we are?

Maybe you're not-- can't remember your avatar.

Even if you are NOT --- be civil for goodness sake.

Quote some bono for me, he's a Christian right? BTW there's an ignore feature.

 

[posthuman]

Quote some bono for me, he's a Christian right? BTW there's an ignore feature.

"The God i believe in isn't short of cash, mister."
- Bono

 

[Sully]

"The God i believe in isn't short of cash, mister."
- Bono

"I still haven't found what I'm looking for". Does one think Satan is short on cash?

 

[stonesoffire]

Dcon and Fran

Would you both agree if you both stated this. Faith alone will give entrance into heaven. But, works will be our rewards.

?

 

[posthuman]

"I still haven't found what I'm looking for". Does one think Satan is short on cash?

"You broke the bonds and You loosed the chains
Carried the cross and all my shame"

Is this a song about Satan??

 

[posthuman]

"I still haven't found what I'm looking for".

I look for His return and the reconciliation of all things - haven't found it yet. Did I miss it?

 

[Sully]

No it's a song referencing Jesus. But then he goes on to mock that it isn't what he's looking for. Suggest looking into the song writers secret. Love songs ain't about boys and girls.

 

[Sully]

I look for His return and the reconciliation of all things - haven't found it yet. Did I miss it?

Imo yes you missed it.

 

[dcontroversal]

Dcon and Fran

Would you both agree if you both stated this. Faith alone will give entrance into heaven. But, works will be our rewards.

?

I have made my position clear...

1. Faith void of anything eternally saves, justifies, seals and sanctifies in Christ positionally
2. Any work, fruit is the result of Christ in us and through us as a living sacrifice
3. Any work or fruit is the result of the faith and salvation one already possesses in Christ eternally
4. Every man's work will be judged by fire and rewarded accordingly
5. Faithful believers produce works of Gold, silver and precious stones
6. Believers who are not faithful will produce works of wood, hay and stubble yet will remain saved
7. There is NO prescribed amount of works that one can do or must do that will save other than BELIEVE on Jesus
8. There is NO prescribed amount of works that one can do or must do to prove salvation...1, 2, 3 or 50000 is irrelevant....only God can judge....and JESUS was clear....even a cup of cold water in the name of Jesus or a disciple will not go unnoticed and or unrewarded.....
9. It is the ROOT that produces...the root is JESUS......