How can you really really really know you are saved?
- Thread starter DJ2
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We're watching a series by R.C. Sproul about Martin Luther. He was telling about the guy who wanted to make Wittenberg the Rome of Germany -- intellectually and notoriety too. Back then, if a person took a pilgrimage to Rome and looked at the religious artifacts they got indulgences to reduce time in Purgatory. And looking at each one gave X amount of time off. So, the guy started collecting some of the artifacts for Wittenberg. They included a hair from Jesus' beard, part of the cross, and a branch of the burning bush. All in all, he bought 19,000 artifacts. (He really believed this stuff. So did Luther at that time.) All told, if someone actually looked at all those artifacts, they'd get over 2 million years off from Purgatory. (And that's the point in time, when I'd give up even on the possibility for Purgatory, and just go with the obvious -- I'm going to Hell. What's the difference? 61 years of this life tells me how hard life is in general? Why would I want 2 million more years of this for a slim chance at heaven?)
I'm thinking how much did these scammers make doing this?
AND, how much can we charge for authentication of proof now?
I'm thinking how much did these scammers make doing this?
AND, how much can we charge for authentication of proof now?
D
Just read a quote from Charles Barkley that will make you laugh. (Do not drink anything when reading it. I really did LOL, and I'd hate you to do that with something in your mouth.)
"I was going to sue him for defamation of character, until I realized I have no character."
(Not a put down on you. Just laughing how much we worry about our character.)
"I was going to sue him for defamation of character, until I realized I have no character."
(Not a put down on you. Just laughing how much we worry about our character.)
DJ2 I and others have given you answers, both of our personal testimonies and experiences and Scriptures.
What do you have to contribute? Are you simply denying all that we are saying because you believe we cannot know if we are saved?
If you have already said so I just missed it, forgive me.
I guess my question to you is: Are you saying we cannot know if we are saved?
What do you have to contribute? Are you simply denying all that we are saying because you believe we cannot know if we are saved?
If you have already said so I just missed it, forgive me.
I guess my question to you is: Are you saying we cannot know if we are saved?
i didn't actually write it either -- Jesus spoke it, His apostles wrote it. i read it & repeated it
this is pointing right back at the crux of my reply to this whole question ((and it's not just me with this reply)) -- that the answer is found in God, in Jesus Christ. without Him, it's impossible -- speaking both of salvation itself and of assurance of it ((are these separate?)) -- and with Him, more than possible, actually - it's sure: because "salvation" isn't "going to heaven" -- that's not eternal life. eternal life is knowing Him, being with Him, in Him. just like 'home is where the heart is' -- 'heaven is where the Lord is' -- so knowing Him is assurance. He reveals Himself to those He are His own, and He doesn't lose any of His own. QED assurance.
D
please see post #162 and post #171
if you believe God, believe Him. of course when i say that with the tacit assumption that you comprehend what He says.
(("comprehend what He says" -- wow yes, agreed, more than a mouthful -- but the gospel of Jesus Christ is both radically simple and cosmically, unimaginably rich & complex))
if you believe Him, believe Him fully -- that is assurance.
if you disbelieve Him, how can you have anything but doubt??
i get what you're saying - and it's a really interesting and relevant point, one i'm glad you're bringing up and pressing. no quibbling from me on the existence and premise of this thread, sir
there is this implicit circular reasoning, "i believe because i believe and i am sure because i am sure of what i believe" -- but that whole circle consists of "me" and has nothing to do with God. the Lord lives - He is REAL and ALIVE and PRESENT - and it's upon the 'insertion' of Him into this logical samsara that that wheel is shattered and we're released from it.
treating this whole question as if it is somehow separate from and unconcerned with the Author and Finisher of our salvation is, of course, going to get us nowhere. i know i am His because i hear His voice. He's an active participant - the active participant in this. it's when He's left out, and we examine a salvation apart from a Savior, then that salvation necessarily appears very questionable, unsubstantiated and only quasi-justified by confirmation bias: no man can save himself; God alone saves.
He must be included, and since He deemed it fitting not to make us star-belly vs. regular-belly sneetches, it rests on faith in Him, His grace, His mercy, and His faithfulness.
if you believe God, believe Him. of course when i say that with the tacit assumption that you comprehend what He says.
(("comprehend what He says" -- wow yes, agreed, more than a mouthful -- but the gospel of Jesus Christ is both radically simple and cosmically, unimaginably rich & complex))
if you believe Him, believe Him fully -- that is assurance.
if you disbelieve Him, how can you have anything but doubt??
i get what you're saying - and it's a really interesting and relevant point, one i'm glad you're bringing up and pressing. no quibbling from me on the existence and premise of this thread, sir
there is this implicit circular reasoning, "i believe because i believe and i am sure because i am sure of what i believe" -- but that whole circle consists of "me" and has nothing to do with God. the Lord lives - He is REAL and ALIVE and PRESENT - and it's upon the 'insertion' of Him into this logical samsara that that wheel is shattered and we're released from it.
treating this whole question as if it is somehow separate from and unconcerned with the Author and Finisher of our salvation is, of course, going to get us nowhere. i know i am His because i hear His voice. He's an active participant - the active participant in this. it's when He's left out, and we examine a salvation apart from a Savior, then that salvation necessarily appears very questionable, unsubstantiated and only quasi-justified by confirmation bias: no man can save himself; God alone saves.
He must be included, and since He deemed it fitting not to make us star-belly vs. regular-belly sneetches, it rests on faith in Him, His grace, His mercy, and His faithfulness.
Speaking of works-based theology. According to the Mormon gospel, in 2 Nephi 25:23 in the book of Mormon, we read - "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." In other words, "do all you can or else the Lord will not be able to save you."
*IN CONTRAST, in Ephesians 2:8-9 in the Bible, we read - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
*IN CONTRAST, in Ephesians 2:8-9 in the Bible, we read - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
i didn't actually write it either -- Jesus spoke it, His apostles wrote it. i read it & repeated it
this is pointing right back at the crux of my reply to this whole question ((and it's not just me with this reply)) -- that the answer is found in God, in Jesus Christ. without Him, it's impossible -- speaking both of salvation itself and of assurance of it ((are these separate?)) -- and with Him, more than possible, actually - it's sure: because "salvation" isn't "going to heaven" -- that's not eternal life. eternal life is knowing Him, being with Him, in Him. just like 'home is where the heart is' -- 'heaven is where the Lord is' -- so knowing Him is assurance. He reveals Himself to those He are His own, and He doesn't lose any of His own. QED assurance.
"Bullseye" about?
Oh, I get it now! Jesus. Your answers reminds me of the replies we would get from preschool children in bible class. Every answer was Jesus.
Who was the husband of Mary? JESUS!!
What is the first book of the Bible? JESUS!!
What is your favorite color? JESUS!!
They were cute from a 5 year old but.....
Who was the husband of Mary? JESUS!!
What is the first book of the Bible? JESUS!!
What is your favorite color? JESUS!!
They were cute from a 5 year old but.....
