How To Be Un-Saved
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Amen, Even if a child of God tried (because of addiction or whatever) to go back to eating his vomit. They realise how nasty it is, and how sick it is, And unlike before. Where it was natural. Now he goes to God and does what is needed to try to break that nasty habit.
Where as a natural dog loves it, because he has no idea how sick and nasty it is. To him it is like eating a T bone steak and baked potato smothered in butter!!
R
You tell us. You're the one who says if you sin too much God will kill you. How is that 1) having "no sin to be accountable for", and, 2) not quantifying sin?
Look at this:
"5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."-1 Corinthians 5:5
For the sake of your doctrine, let's define the death of the flesh in 1 Corinthians 5 as physical death. If your doctrine is correct and that there is no sin that a Christian is accountable for, and so he or she can sin as much or as little as they want ( doesn't make any difference, they are still saved), why does the sinning fellow in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 have to die so that "so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."?
Of course, you're going to say he's dying in a loss of rewards punishment, but Paul is clearly saying he has to die so that he can be saved. He's saying it's a matter of salvation, not rewards. But you say there is no accountability for sin after one gets saved.
I am not perfect, but I am obedient. I'm living for Christ, and when I fail I seek his forgiveness and I repent and move on. That's called living the Christian life in obedience. That is in contrast to the one who is NOT living for Christ and purposely indulges the flesh thinking his sin doesn't matter because grace makes it so he can 'live like that' and still be saved. Which one are you?
Let me help you with that......yes, I am. I am living for Christ. I'm a new creation growing up into the stature of Christ. Are you? Or are you taking false comfort in a doctrine that says sin, and even unbelief, doesn't matter?
Oh, I'm not the one who added it. It comes right out of the Bible. Here's an example:
"Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation"-Philippians 2:14-15
I'm betting you'll continue to think obedience as a sign you are saved is not Biblical.
Which 'bowl of sin porridge' does one have to eat from to get killed by God for sinning?
We've been over this. Lost people don't die for their enemies.
"21For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps"-1 Peter 2:21
The unbeliever does not, and can not persevere in righteous suffering. He will always bail out. The believer can. How you treat those who mistreat you may be the ultimate litmus test for whether you are saved or not. Unbelievers are invariably going to fail the test.
5Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
We see Christ most clearly in ourselves when we are facing our enemies. It really comes down to how you treat those who mistreat you. Are you growing up into the image of Christ in your suffering? If you're not, you have to wonder if you really have Christ in you at all. You have to look different than unbelievers in this regard or else you may not be saved at all. There really is a difference between what unbelievers can't do and what believers can do.
Look at this:
"5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."-1 Corinthians 5:5
For the sake of your doctrine, let's define the death of the flesh in 1 Corinthians 5 as physical death. If your doctrine is correct and that there is no sin that a Christian is accountable for, and so he or she can sin as much or as little as they want ( doesn't make any difference, they are still saved), why does the sinning fellow in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 have to die so that "so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."?
Of course, you're going to say he's dying in a loss of rewards punishment, but Paul is clearly saying he has to die so that he can be saved. He's saying it's a matter of salvation, not rewards. But you say there is no accountability for sin after one gets saved.
I am not perfect, but I am obedient. I'm living for Christ, and when I fail I seek his forgiveness and I repent and move on. That's called living the Christian life in obedience. That is in contrast to the one who is NOT living for Christ and purposely indulges the flesh thinking his sin doesn't matter because grace makes it so he can 'live like that' and still be saved. Which one are you?
Let me help you with that......yes, I am. I am living for Christ. I'm a new creation growing up into the stature of Christ. Are you? Or are you taking false comfort in a doctrine that says sin, and even unbelief, doesn't matter?
Oh, I'm not the one who added it. It comes right out of the Bible. Here's an example:
"Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation"-Philippians 2:14-15
I'm betting you'll continue to think obedience as a sign you are saved is not Biblical.
Which 'bowl of sin porridge' does one have to eat from to get killed by God for sinning?
We've been over this. Lost people don't die for their enemies.
"21For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps"-1 Peter 2:21
The unbeliever does not, and can not persevere in righteous suffering. He will always bail out. The believer can. How you treat those who mistreat you may be the ultimate litmus test for whether you are saved or not. Unbelievers are invariably going to fail the test.
5Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
We see Christ most clearly in ourselves when we are facing our enemies. It really comes down to how you treat those who mistreat you. Are you growing up into the image of Christ in your suffering? If you're not, you have to wonder if you really have Christ in you at all. You have to look different than unbelievers in this regard or else you may not be saved at all. There really is a difference between what unbelievers can't do and what believers can do.
No, sir.
Scripture cautions the carnal man. Those with eyes but don't see and those with ears but don't hear.
Faith says "I will never leave you nor forsake you".
Faith says "My Sheep hear my voice and they follow me and I give them Eternal Life".
Faith says "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance".
Do you hear what faith says?
Or do you turn away?
Scripture cautions the carnal man. Those with eyes but don't see and those with ears but don't hear.
Faith says "I will never leave you nor forsake you".
Faith says "My Sheep hear my voice and they follow me and I give them Eternal Life".
Faith says "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance".
Do you hear what faith says?
Or do you turn away?
You sure enjoy twisting things don't you? That's what makes you so dangerous to less knowledgeable Christians. You bear false witness and then play the angel.
Correction, as any good father would do, is not damnation, nor is it because we have sin attributed to us. According to your doctrine, a wayward Christian is a sign one was not really saved, or was saved and lost their salvation. Either way, it's off to hell with them.
God is patient with His children. His discipline is to cause growth - not to punish for sin. We have no sin to pay for. If we did, Jesus would have to come back and die to pay for them - and that's not gonna happen.
There have been Christians who have refused God's correction - those who sully the name of the One who bought them - that God has removed. As Paul spoke of in 1 Corinthians 11.
But their salvation is secure!
Paul is speaking of the man who is sleeping with his father's wife and would not stop. Paul says to turn him over for the destruction of his flesh, knowing that his soul is saved. You actually made my point. It's not his death that saves him, he was already saved, his shameful behavior simply resulted in the destruction of his flesh. If this man was not already saved, Paul wouldn't have the authority to "turn him over" to Satan - Satan would already have the authority to kill him - as the devil would be his father, as he is the father of all of the lost.
You sin every day, Ralph. But you minimize it so that you can elevate yourself.
And as far as seeking His forgiveness - forgiveness for what? Either all sins were forgiven at the cross, or we're all in big trouble.
How many sins didn't the blood cover, Ralph? How many remain to be forgiven? Because, yet again, the bible says without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. If we have a single sin to pay for, we'd better hope Jesus comes back to be crucified again.
You are not obeying God's commandments because the Bible says no one can fully obey them. Not even the Jews to whom His Law was given. You are delusional to even think you can. You break one, you're guilty of breaking them all. And if you somehow could obey all of His commandments, you wouldn't need Christ.
I have always said we should live as holy a life as we can, as a witness to men. But good works don't prove one is saved, because the lost can do the same good works.
Many Christians won't die for their enemies either.
You know exactly what I mean by good works. Feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, clothing the naked, etc.
An unbeliever can persevere in suffering. Millions of people from false religions call it "righteous" as well.
Next.
So, it finally boils down to "suffering" with you, huh? Your inner martyr is showing itself again. Your insatiable need to "prove" yourself to God and others. Oh, the praise you must drink up for being so "humble" and so "holy", as you stand bravely before the onslaught of those who think you are simply full of yourself.
One is a Christian if they believe in Jesus for salvation - whether they suffer a little, a lot, or not at all.
Period.
Correction, as any good father would do, is not damnation, nor is it because we have sin attributed to us. According to your doctrine, a wayward Christian is a sign one was not really saved, or was saved and lost their salvation. Either way, it's off to hell with them.
God is patient with His children. His discipline is to cause growth - not to punish for sin. We have no sin to pay for. If we did, Jesus would have to come back and die to pay for them - and that's not gonna happen.
There have been Christians who have refused God's correction - those who sully the name of the One who bought them - that God has removed. As Paul spoke of in 1 Corinthians 11.
But their salvation is secure!
Paul is speaking of the man who is sleeping with his father's wife and would not stop. Paul says to turn him over for the destruction of his flesh, knowing that his soul is saved. You actually made my point. It's not his death that saves him, he was already saved, his shameful behavior simply resulted in the destruction of his flesh. If this man was not already saved, Paul wouldn't have the authority to "turn him over" to Satan - Satan would already have the authority to kill him - as the devil would be his father, as he is the father of all of the lost.
You sin every day, Ralph. But you minimize it so that you can elevate yourself.
And as far as seeking His forgiveness - forgiveness for what? Either all sins were forgiven at the cross, or we're all in big trouble.
How many sins didn't the blood cover, Ralph? How many remain to be forgiven? Because, yet again, the bible says without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. If we have a single sin to pay for, we'd better hope Jesus comes back to be crucified again.
You are not obeying God's commandments because the Bible says no one can fully obey them. Not even the Jews to whom His Law was given. You are delusional to even think you can. You break one, you're guilty of breaking them all. And if you somehow could obey all of His commandments, you wouldn't need Christ.
I have always said we should live as holy a life as we can, as a witness to men. But good works don't prove one is saved, because the lost can do the same good works.
Many Christians won't die for their enemies either.
You know exactly what I mean by good works. Feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, clothing the naked, etc.
An unbeliever can persevere in suffering. Millions of people from false religions call it "righteous" as well.
Next.
So, it finally boils down to "suffering" with you, huh? Your inner martyr is showing itself again. Your insatiable need to "prove" yourself to God and others. Oh, the praise you must drink up for being so "humble" and so "holy", as you stand bravely before the onslaught of those who think you are simply full of yourself.
One is a Christian if they believe in Jesus for salvation - whether they suffer a little, a lot, or not at all.
Period.
This is a great response brother.
Ya know, it would be laughable if it wasn't so serious, but here Ralph quotes this passage as a way to show obedience not realizing he is violating the very passage he just posted!
RALPH- "Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation"-Philippians 2:14-15
I'm betting you'll continue to think obedience as a sign you are saved is not Biblical."
Ya know, it would be laughable if it wasn't so serious, but here Ralph quotes this passage as a way to show obedience not realizing he is violating the very passage he just posted!
RALPH- "Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation"-Philippians 2:14-15
I'm betting you'll continue to think obedience as a sign you are saved is not Biblical."
Actually scripture does not say they are 'unconverted'.
Scripture says they become as if they were never saved in the first place.
If in 2010 I decided to accept Christ, I became saved in 2010.
Then if in 2018 I decide to deny Christ, I go back to my unsaved 2009 status.
Again, you have to wrap your head around the juxtaposition of our finite world with infinite realm of heaven.
Kinda like, even tho I accepted Christ in 2010, in 2010 it became as if i was saved from the foundation of the world.
Our time constraints do not apply to God.
And to say there is no way ever to undo it is to redact large portions of the word. Can I sell you an MRV?
The key to understanding scripture is not to toss out the parts that don't agree with you... it's to figure out how something that doesn't agree with you is actually true.
Scripture says they become as if they were never saved in the first place.
If in 2010 I decided to accept Christ, I became saved in 2010.
Then if in 2018 I decide to deny Christ, I go back to my unsaved 2009 status.
Again, you have to wrap your head around the juxtaposition of our finite world with infinite realm of heaven.
Kinda like, even tho I accepted Christ in 2010, in 2010 it became as if i was saved from the foundation of the world.
Our time constraints do not apply to God.
And to say there is no way ever to undo it is to redact large portions of the word. Can I sell you an MRV?
The key to understanding scripture is not to toss out the parts that don't agree with you... it's to figure out how something that doesn't agree with you is actually true.
Actually it takes more than that.
Only a conscious decision to accept Christ can save you. A decision that is under YOUR control.
Likewise, only a conscious decision to deny Christ will revert you back to unsaved. A decision that is still under your control.
God gave man - Adam - control over this world and his part in it.
How else do you think it all got so screwed up? Did God in His omnipotence mess this planet up so badly? That is the extrapolation of the OSAS theory.
And, you turn God from a wooer to a jailer.
Only a conscious decision to accept Christ can save you. A decision that is under YOUR control.
Likewise, only a conscious decision to deny Christ will revert you back to unsaved. A decision that is still under your control.
God gave man - Adam - control over this world and his part in it.
How else do you think it all got so screwed up? Did God in His omnipotence mess this planet up so badly? That is the extrapolation of the OSAS theory.
And, you turn God from a wooer to a jailer.
Hmm... Tell me, how much say did you have in in your own natural birth? Could YOU decide that you were no longer the son of your parents?
So one minute your a child of God, born again, a NEW creation, and the next YOU decide you are no longer a Child of God?
[FONT="]12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.[/FONT]
Scripture very clearly and repeatedly makes 2 points on this issue:
1. God will never turn us away
2. We can turn ourselves away.
Now, you can't just glom onto point 1 and say because of point 1 point 2 is a lie. To do so is to call scripture a lie.
You have to look at both points and find an interpretation that makes both points true... no matter how hard it might be to wrap our heads around that.
1. God will never turn us away
2. We can turn ourselves away.
Now, you can't just glom onto point 1 and say because of point 1 point 2 is a lie. To do so is to call scripture a lie.
You have to look at both points and find an interpretation that makes both points true... no matter how hard it might be to wrap our heads around that.
Again, I ask you, what does faith say?
Faith says "I am confident that He which has started a good work in you will complete it to the day of Jesus Christ".
Faith says "Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord".
Can you hear what faith says?
Or will you continue to turn away to your own carnal understanding?
Faith says "I am confident that He which has started a good work in you will complete it to the day of Jesus Christ".
Faith says "Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord".
Can you hear what faith says?
Or will you continue to turn away to your own carnal understanding?