How To Be Un-Saved

[dcontroversal]

The answer to both questions is NO.

Oh really......hmmmmm I must have been blind a few days ago when you said it can be lost.......or that one can walk away from faith and lose it....or maybe I was mistaken......I will have to go back and check your quotes and why I seen what I had seen....

So...you believe in eternal security and one cannot forfeit salvation?

 

[Yahshua]

exactly....You implied Judas was saved and lost it, I called you on it, you denied you said it, I quoted your saying and proved you implied it, you denied it and then turned around and stated it again.....

yep...all can see you flip flop more than a fresh caught perch on the dock.....

Judas tasted the kingdom of God. True or false? I say true. What say you?

 

[RickyZ]

Oh really......hmmmmm I must have been blind a few days ago when you said it can be lost.......or that one can walk away from faith and lose it....or maybe I was mistaken......I will have to go back and check your quotes and why I seen what I had seen....

So...you believe in eternal security and one cannot forfeit salvation?

NOW you're getting warmer...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes it does matter... but if I tell you why it will influence your answer.

there is nothing to influence,

It is the cross plus nothing. period.

In the OT, The sins were atoned for once a year. by the sacrifice in the inner sanctum, and all of Israels sins were symbolically removed. Their works had nothing to do with their symbolic cleansing, only the work of the priest and the animal being slaughtered for the sin of the people.

Reality resembles the symbol.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ricky...

Do you believe you can lose salvation? YES or NO
Do you believe you must do something to maintain it? YES or NO

if the answer to the first question is yes, then the answer to the second MUST be yes, and vice versa (if no. then no)

 

[dcontroversal]

The answer to both questions is NO.

This is like being in a Charlie Brown movie ... one character speaks clearly, but all the closed ears care to hear is 'wa wa waa waa wah.'

You're right. Salvation cannot be lost forfeited or given away.

And people can deny God, blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and still get into heaven.


Sorry, gotta leave this bit o fun and go redact more scripture so's it will match our beliefs... you know, the one that says people can deny God, blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and still get into heaven.

Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee

Are you suggesting someone who has been born again....made a new creation by the power of God... having a new heart and spirit can end up in the lake of fire?


Or are you suggesting one can be decieved into thinking they have been born again when they truely have never been adopted as sons/daughters?



Both of the above...

Originally Posted by notuptome

Can a believer become apostate?

Can the butterfly once again become a caterpillar?

Can an apostate know the truth but refuse to receive and believe the truth? We need to know Christ but more importantly He needs to know us. Those He commands to depart from Him are the ones He never knew.

Its the John 16:8-11 Holy Spirit conviction thing which separates the intellectual knowledge from the real conversion experience. Its not a commitment, no its way more. I do not give my life to Christ I receive life from Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger



Those are all valid points... and so are the scriptures that say it can and will happen, despite how unbelievable we might find it.

Originally Posted by preacher4truth

Let me ask this as well, concerning the BIL scenario:

Who failed here?

1) Did Christ fail to keep him saved (John 10:28-30&c)?

2) Or, did BIL fail to keep himself saved?



You left out option 3: BIL made the conscious decision to walk away from his faith

YEP.....you agree with Ralph and he teaches salvation can be forfeit............I could have cut and pasted many more.....SO>.....your NO to my two questions were misleading in the least....

thanks for confirming that you are not honest in your answers........

 

[Yahshua]

there is nothing to influence,

It is the cross plus nothing. period.

In the OT, The sins were atoned for once a year. by the sacrifice in the inner sanctum, and all of Israels sins were symbolically removed. Their works had nothing to do with their symbolic cleansing, only the work of the priest and the animal being slaughtered for the sin of the people.

Reality resembles the symbol.

Each and every family had to choose a spotless lamb, take care of that lamb for a short time, bring that lamb to the temple for sacrifice on Passover, and then lay hands on the lamb confessing their house's sins. If that didn't happen there was no subsequent work for the Priest to do for that family.

 

[dcontroversal]

if the answer to the first question is yes, then the answer to the second MUST be yes, and vice versa (if no. then no)

He answered NO and NO....I just went and cut and pasted numerous times that his answers totally contradicted the No and NO....there were many more....no use in engaging one who cannot be honest.....

 

[dcontroversal]

Judas tasted the kingdom of God. True or false? I say true. What say you?

Have not I chosen you 12 and one of you IS a devil from the beginning

A thief that holds the bag

The Son of Perdition

JUDAS was never saved to begin with and then lost it......

Your making a stand on a false position....

 

[RickyZ]

This is like being in a Charlie Brown movie ... one character speaks clearly, but all the closed ears care to hear is 'wa wa waa waa wah.'

You're right. Salvation cannot be lost forfeited or given away.

And people can deny God, blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and still get into heaven.


Sorry, gotta leave this bit o fun and go redact more scripture so's it will match our beliefs... you know, the one that says people can deny God, blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and still get into heaven.

Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee

Are you suggesting someone who has been born again....made a new creation by the power of God... having a new heart and spirit can end up in the lake of fire?


Or are you suggesting one can be decieved into thinking they have been born again when they truely have never been adopted as sons/daughters?



Both of the above...

Originally Posted by notuptome

Can a believer become apostate?

Can the butterfly once again become a caterpillar?

Can an apostate know the truth but refuse to receive and believe the truth? We need to know Christ but more importantly He needs to know us. Those He commands to depart from Him are the ones He never knew.

Its the John 16:8-11 Holy Spirit conviction thing which separates the intellectual knowledge from the real conversion experience. Its not a commitment, no its way more. I do not give my life to Christ I receive life from Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger



Those are all valid points... and so are the scriptures that say it can and will happen, despite how unbelievable we might find it.

Originally Posted by preacher4truth

Let me ask this as well, concerning the BIL scenario:

Who failed here?

1) Did Christ fail to keep him saved (John 10:28-30&c)?

2) Or, did BIL fail to keep himself saved?



You left out option 3: BIL made the conscious decision to walk away from his faith

YEP.....you agree with Ralph and he teaches salvation can be forfeit............I could have cut and pasted many more.....SO>.....your NO to my two questions were misleading in the least....

thanks for confirming that you are not honest in your answers........

Or maybe 2 plus 2 isn't equaling 4 for you yet...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wow, people who willfully sin after salvation lose their salvation. People who willfully sin after salvation, lose their salvation and cannot be saved again.

Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first begin to deceive.

who does not willfully sin is my question.

Why do we think our sins are just oopsies or mistakes. If we think this, I think we have major issues.

 

[dcontroversal]

Each and every family had to choose a spotless lamb, take care of that lamb for a short time, bring that lamb to the temple for sacrifice on Passover, and then lay hands on the lamb confessing their house's sins. If that didn't happen there was no subsequent work for the Priest to do for that family.

So what....read HEBREWS......the priesthood HAS BEEN changed and that SYSTEM was done away with and was inferior because IT NEVER ONCE forgave sin or made the doer PERFECT before GOD......

 

[dcontroversal]

Or maybe 2 plus 2 isn't equaling 4 for you yet...

Keep your deception and inability to be honest....

You believe salvation can be forfeit and agree with the same drivel that Ralph pushes.....end of story...your little accusations and snide remarks will not change the fact that you were totally dishonest when you answered NO and NO while knowing full well you do not believe in eternal security....if one can walk away and lose it...that does not equal eternal security....

Nice try, but I really thought you were more honorable than that even though we disagree on salvation and the gifts.......

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Judas tasted the kingdom of God. True or false? I say true. What say you?

False. Jesus called him the devil. He was a thief from the beginning. he continued to live in sin even walking with the group. that is not a saved person.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Each and every family had to choose a spotless lamb, take care of that lamb for a short time, bring that lamb to the temple for sacrifice on Passover, and then lay hands on the lamb confessing their house's sins. If that didn't happen there was no subsequent work for the Priest to do for that family.

once the sacrifice was given, what work did the family have to do?

And by the way, all the family had to do was bring an unbelmished lamb. God provided that himself by offering up his son. So God did that work. You did not nor did I. We could not do that work.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He answered NO and NO....I just went and cut and pasted numerous times that his answers totally contradicted the No and NO....there were many more....no use in engaging one who cannot be honest.....

he will probably use a different term.

Like you can not lose it, but you can give it back (same difference really. they just like to play on words)

 

[mailmandan]

False. Jesus called him the devil. He was a thief from the beginning. he continued to live in sin even walking with the group. that is not a saved person.

Amen! Jesus said that Judas is a devil!" He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve (John 6:70-71). But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him (vs. 64).

In John 13:10-11, we read: Jesus said to him, "He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, "You are not all clean."

Judas left because he was an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Jesus. Judas didn't lose his salvation. He never had it. In John 8:31, Jesus said - "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine. Judas did not continue.

 

[Yahshua]

False. Jesus called him the devil. He was a thief from the beginning. he continued to live in sin even walking with the group. that is not a saved person.

You're at least willing to answer a question directly instead of dodging it or avoiding it. But you're still incorrectly uniting two related things together that are not the same thing.

Being saved =/= the kingdom of god

Being saved is not the kingdom of god. That's probably where the confusion lies. We are saved from our sins and we then proceed towards the promised kingdom of god, receiving a down payment on that promise with the receipt of the Holy Spirit.

[Just like Israel was saved from Egypt but then had to proceed towards their promised kingdom.]

Christ is the embodiment of the kingdom since he's the king, with all the benefits that come with that kingdom (i.e. authority over all the works of the satan).

Judas tasted the kingdom along with every other apostle because he was with Christ and received authority from him to cast out demons etc...but Judas sinned against the king, betraying him.

Judas wasn't saved. But he tasted of the kingdom but sinned willfully. Compare that to Peter who denied Christ out of fear.

This serves as an example of what Hebrew says; that those who taste of the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come (i.e. the kingdom), who sin willfully, can't be once again renewed.

This is exactly why the couple who sold their land to support the movement but willfully lied (i.e. sinned) about how much they received (trying to keep some for themselves) were struck dead, because they tasted the kingdom in the form of witnessing the Holy Spirit of Christ and they knew the truth.

 

[gb9]

You're at least willing to answer a question directly instead of dodging it or avoiding it. But you're still incorrectly uniting two related things together that are not the same thing.

Being saved =/= the kingdom of god

Being saved is not the kingdom of god. That's probably where the confusion lies. We are saved from our sins and we then proceed towards the promised kingdom of god, receiving a down payment on that promise with the receipt of the Holy Spirit.

[Just like Israel was saved from Egypt but then had to proceed towards their promised kingdom.]

Christ is the embodiment of the kingdom since he's the king, with all the benefits that come with that kingdom (i.e. authority over all the works of the satan).

Judas tasted the kingdom along with every other apostle because he was with Christ and received authority from him to cast out demons etc...but Judas sinned against the king, betraying him.

Judas wasn't saved. But he tasted of the kingdom but sinned willfully. Compare that to Peter who denied Christ out of fear.

This serves as an example of what Hebrew says; that those who taste of the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come (i.e. the kingdom), who sin willfully, can't be once again renewed.

This is exactly why the couple who sold their land to support the movement but willfully lied (i.e. sinned) about how much they received (trying to keep some for themselves) were struck dead, because they tasted the kingdom in the form of witnessing the Holy Spirit of Christ and they knew the truth.

yes, Israel still had to journey to the promised land after they were rescued from slavery. but, they complained, rebelled, did not trust God to provide.

and, through all that, God still took them to the promised land. they broke the Covenant many times, God never turned His back on them.

when God got them there, they refused to go in. God never " took away " His promise , Israel refused to enter into it. the fault was theirs, all the way. God never refused to take them in, until after they had already decided not to go.

 

[Yahshua]

So what....read HEBREWS......the priesthood HAS BEEN changed and that SYSTEM was done away with and was inferior because IT NEVER ONCE forgave sin or made the doer PERFECT before GOD......

"So what God gave all of those things as examples to learm from for us to whom the ends of the earth have come. It's all done away with anyhow." Right?

Each and every family still must choose The Spotless Lamb and confess their sins onto the lamb. If that doesn't happen there isn't any subsequent work for the High Priest to do on behalf of that family. The High Priest still had to take blood from the spotless lamb into the true temple.

Reality follows the symbols.