Are women allowed to Preach?

[lightbearer]

The Apostolic Bible Polyglot has an interesting translation of 1 Timothy 2:11-12

Let a wife learn at rest in all submission. And a wife I do not commit to their care to teach, nor to domineer a husband, but to be at rest. 1 Timothy 2:11-12​

The Greek word for wife and woman is the same. Same with husband and man. I don't like their term rest; I think stillness better conveys the meaning of that word.

So was Paul referring to wives when he wrote this, instead of women in general? It makes me wonder because of the context of marriage that's created by the ensuing verses.

For Adam first was shaped, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the wife having been deceived, became in violation. But she shall be preserved through the childbearing, if they abide in belief, and love, and sanctification, with discreetness. 1 Timothy 2:13-15​

I prefer literal translations how about you?. I look at ABP quit often and like it.
I be curious as to how other literal translations handle these text. Oh btw they dropped the Ball. There is an inconsistency.

Verse 8 is the beginning of this section.

I want then [3 to pray 1 for the 2 men] in every place, lifting up sacred hands, separate from anger and arguing.

 

[BillG]

Here is this entire debate in a nutshell. God has issued much greater authority unto man in the society and in the church as opposed to the woman. This is demonstrated within many, many verses in the Bible. However many are not willing to acknowledge these clear differences in authority as defined by God, so they will attempt anything and everything to try to nullify the authority structure God has clearly given. Normally, it is women who do not wish to properly acknowledge God's authority structure due their desire to be equal in authority with man, but there are also some very weak men willing to give up the authority God has given unto them as demonstrated within these pages.

Maybe the issue also is how men use their perception of authority over women.

 

[Angela53510]

The Apostolic Bible Polyglot has an interesting translation of 1 Timothy 2:11-12

Let a wife learn at rest in all submission. And a wife I do not commit to their care to teach, nor to domineer a husband, but to be at rest. 1 Timothy 2:11-12​

The Greek word for wife and woman is the same. Same with husband and man. I don't like their term rest; I think stillness better conveys the meaning of that word.

So was Paul referring to wives when he wrote this, instead of women in general? It makes me wonder because of the context of marriage that's created by the ensuing verses.

For Adam first was shaped, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the wife having been deceived, became in violation. But she shall be preserved through the childbearing, if they abide in belief, and love, and sanctification, with discreetness. 1 Timothy 2:13-15​

This makes a lot more sense. Because it could well be wives causing a problem, and dealing with it, and the husbands being part of helping them grow and learn.

And finally a translation that uses “to domineer” for authentein in verses 12. That is what it means, and it is in the infinitive form, not the nonsense with turning a verb into a noun, adding a verb and a preposition, like most translations do since the KJV.

Plus, the context of Timothy is Ephesus, not the modern church. He was talking about some very real problems in the church there, and it was not just women that were the problem. He outright condemned Alexander and Hymaneus. Cast them out of the church. And yet, no one ever worries about the damage men can do in a church, although cumulatively, men have done so much more damage than women, from the RCC to evangelical pastors dallying and using their positions to sleep with teenage girls.

“Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.” 1 Tim. 1:20
[FONT=&quot]
Perhaps we need a 60 or 100 page thread on what did Hymenaeus and Alexander did, that was so bad, and how it applies to every single man, today! We won’t even get into the context of what was happening in Ephesus, with regards to goddess worship of Artemis, which is clearly laid out in Acts 19:24-35.

Besides, 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus are called the “pastoral” Epistles for a reason! Paul is writing to encourage these pastors, and to help them deal with problems within their churches. None of these books was about an all time prohibition on women speaking and preaching, if they were properly qualified and prepared, as someone like Prisca (Priscilla) was. Just another example of male dominance and misogny in the church, and how men seeking power use these out of context and mistranslated verses to pursue their own evil agendas.[/FONT]

 

[BillG]

Does the following help?

https://www.gotquestions.org/women-pastors.html

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I prefer literal translations how about you?. I look at ABP quit often and like it.
I be curious as to how other literal translations handle these text. Oh btw they dropped the Ball. There is an inconsistency.

Verse 8 is the beginning of this section.

I want then [3 to pray 1 for the 2 men] in every place, lifting up sacred hands, separate from anger and arguing.

I like the ABP a lot. don't know if they dropped the ball. That word can mean either depending on the immediate or surrounding context.

 

[Ralph-]

Suppose a male pastor preaches things that aren't true, then a woman preaches things that are true? Who has authority in this case?

Assuming the pastor is a true pastor who has that calling but teaches maliciously despite his calling, neither of the people in your example has any authority in the church.

The man has forfeited the authority he had by speaking lies, and the woman never had it, even though she may have been speaking the truth.


Let's not confuse the ability to teach with the authority to teach. Pastoral teaching authority is different than just being able to teach someone. We don't get that because we are in a take-it-or-leave it time in church history in western civilization. We pick and choose who we will sit under and who we will not according to personal taste and desires not because we think the pastor has authority.

The office of pastoral authority will become more apparent when the church becomes openly despised and persecuted.

 

[Ralph-]

And men don't get away with stuff? Please...my husband of 20 years was a habitual cheater...

I don't want to be insensitive to your pain in any way shape or form, TRUST ME ON THAT, but this does help me to understand where you're coming from. And out of courtesy to you, let's leave it at that.


Like I said, men can be pigs, I mean real pigs, but that simply does not negate the fact that God has ordained certain men to be in teaching and leadership authority over the church, not women.

I have to submit to that too. I can not be a pastor any more than a woman can be (though I get the itch to sometimes). I also, along with all women, do not have that calling, even though I am a man. I have to respect that ordination of authority just as you females have to.

 

[Angela53510]

Assuming the pastor is a true pastor who has that calling but teaches maliciously despite his calling, neither of the people in your example has any authority in the church.

The man has forfeited the authority he had by speaking lies, and the woman never had it, even though she may have been speaking the truth.


Let's not confuse the ability to teach with the authority to teach. Pastoral teaching authority is different than just being able to teach someone. We don't get that because we are in a take-it-or-leave it time in church history in western civilization. We pick and choose who we will sit under and who we will not according to personal taste and desires not because we think the pastor has authority.

The office of pastoral authority will become more apparent when the church becomes openly despised and persecuted.

Wow! A woman speaking the truth, can’t?? Seriously, such partiarchism! Let’s let 52% of the evanglical church rot in the pews, no matter how much they study, and do know the truth, and let men just keep on being in power and misusing it, based on bad translations, some kind of “role” which is never there, and men abusing power. And all based on a bad translation of a hapax legomeno, authentein, which is an infinitive, not a noun, and NOT exousia, meaning authority. Paul never says anywhere that men have exousia over women. Such a lie based on 2 disputed texts!~

Hard to believe some men are so entrenched in this totally wrong doctrine. So glad that Paul said women and men are equal.

“There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” Gal. 3:28[FONT=&quot]

Note how Paul uses male - [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]ἄρσεν[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and female - [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]θῆλυ[/FONT][FONT=&quot] because he wants to emphasis that there are TWO genders, but they are ONE in Christ. No offices, no men in charge. And don’t come back at me with “yes, but this is about salvation, not roles” been there, done that! And Paul is not talking about roles, anywhere, that I can see, except mostly, in that era, the men were educated, and therefore became the teachers and preachers. The women needed to learn, except Priscilla, that Paul put first before her husband, to show that she was the teacher and leader. In other words, the pastor! [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[Ralph-]

Wow! A woman speaking the truth, can’t?? Seriously, such partiarchism! Let’s let 52% of the evanglical church rot in the pews, no matter how much they study, and do know the truth, and let men just keep on being in power and misusing it, based on bad translations, some kind of “role” which is never there, and men abusing power. And all based on a bad translation of a hapax legomeno, authentein, which is an infinitive, not a noun, and NOT exousia, meaning authority. Paul never says anywhere that men have exousia over women. Such a lie based on 2 disputed texts!~

Hard to believe some men are so entrenched in this totally wrong doctrine. So glad that Paul said women and men are equal.

“There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” Gal. 3:28

Note how Paul uses male - ἄρσεν and female - θῆλυ because he wants to emphasis that there are TWO genders, but they are ONE in Christ. No offices, no men in charge. And don’t come back at me with “yes, but this is about salvation, not roles” been there, done that! And Paul is not talking about roles, anywhere, that I can see, except mostly, in that era, the men were educated, and therefore became the teachers and preachers. The women needed to learn, except Priscilla, that Paul put first before her husband, to show that she was the teacher and leader. In other words, the pastor!

We've been over this.

This is exactly why I won't be under a woman pastor.

 

[Ralph-]

Let’s let 52% of the evanglical church rot in the pews, no matter how much they study, and do know the truth, and let men just keep on being in power and misusing it...men abusing power.

Why not just get them under a man who is not doing that?

Yeah, I know, crazy, huh?


And women can teach.......just not in pastoral authority over a congregation. I learned from women myself.

 

[Dino246]

There are many that claim this to be a sure sign of genius.

Myself tells me that frequently!

...

Wait...

 

[Dino246]

Teaching with authority belongs to elders/pastors/overseers. Paul says women are not to be appointed to that office because of the order God has ordained in creation.

Don't confuse that with the privilege all of us have to teach one another outside of the office of elder/pastor/overseer.

Please post the Scripture where elders, pastors, and overseers are conflated to one office, or even mentioned together.

 

[Mem]

Going back to the time when I finally began studying the Bible with all sincerity and much zeal, I walked upon my 4 y.o. just enthusiastically ripping out the pages of my AV. He had gone through all of Genesis and working on Exodus 8,9, and 10 before I got to him. This caused me to wonder if he might have been somehow possessed by one demon or other! Well, with that always in the recesses of my thoughts that did spring up every now and again, I am comforted to come across such research as that which suggests the perhaps he might have been, indeed, wise beyond his years and even my understanding at the time, as the AV now appears to me as one, though oh so elegant in its speech, to be the more culpable suspect.

Ten things you need to know about the King James Bible | Nick Page

 

[NotmebutHim]

I don't want to be insensitive to your pain in any way shape or form, TRUST ME ON THAT, but this does help me to understand where you're coming from. And out of courtesy to you, let's leave it at that.


Like I said, men can be pigs, I mean real pigs, but that simply does not negate the fact that God has ordained certain men to be in teaching and leadership authority over the church, not women.

I have to submit to that too. I can not be a pastor any more than a woman can be (though I get the itch to sometimes). I also, along with all women, do not have that calling, even though I am a man. I have to respect that ordination of authority just as you females have to.

I think Ralph is on to something here.

I forgot to mention it in my previous post, but there is this thing known as the "apex fallacy" that permeates the secular world and it it exists in the church as well. In the context of male-female relations, it occurs when women look and see that most (if not all) positions of power and authority are held by men, and they therefore conclude that all men have power and authority. Not only that, but that said men in power use it only to benefit themselves and other men, leaving women to suffer as a result.

But most men have women in their lives that they deeply care about & love, and they will use whatever power and influence is at their disposal to see to the well-being of these women. People are not totally altruistic, but most men will not willfully or willingly throw women under the bus to suit their own needs and wants.

So to use Ralph as an example, his merely being born male does not give him authority or power over any female. Plus, in the case of pastors, God has to give them that position and responsibility; it's not theirs by birth right.

 

[Waggles]

Disobedience to the commandments of God and the teaching of
doctrine by the Apostles runs deep.
Learn to submit to the Word of God rather than follow the anti-Christ
of liberal populist theology.

Have you forgotten already -
(ISV) How narrow is the gate and how constricted is the road that
leads to life, and there aren't many people who find it!"
(KJV) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth
unto life, and few there be that find it.
Matthew 7:14

Popular feel good trendy with the times rebellious new doctrine
is anathema to God.
Self will is not the road to salvation.[SUB][/SUB]

 

[Dino246]

Sure thing. Here are a few of the verses to which we justify paying people in the ministry.
If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
(1Co 9:11-12 KJV)

Can't recall any Apostle accepting money for work in the ministry but according to this text it is fine if they do. But to what extent? Jesus walked for three years with the Apostles ministering full time. He did not have His hand out and neither did the Apostles. Can't find any references to any Elders or Deacons being paid for their ministerial work and they through Christ are to be the overseers of our local congregations.

And as was posted earlier there is only one reference to pastors and it is in relation to it being a Spiritual gift that is to be utilized for edifying the Body of Christ. Other than that the Scripture is silent in relation to us being in the Pastoral position.

Jesus and the first disciples didn't have their hands out, and neither should anyone in ministry. However, Paul also says that those who work for the gospel should make their living from the gospel (verse 14). My preference is that a preacher submits to an oversight team with the authority to set his (or her!) salary.

 

[Angela53510]

We've been over this.

This is exactly why I won't be under a woman pastor.

And this is exactly why I moved to an egalitarian church, where people recognize not just my gifts and training, but all women. So glad I live now, in the 21st century, when so much more is known about Greek than the mistranslations the KJV came up with. So glad I have a solid background in hermeneutics, and that I understand a doctrine made out of 2 disputed verses is no doctrine at all.

And don't to the qualifications for overseers. In fact, some big issues in the translations in those verses, too! Words that are NOT there in Greek, like "their wives." Sad, really! And those translators did their best, back in the KJV days, given the corrupted 7 versions they used, and the lack of access to all the manuscripts we have today, and all the contemporaneous sources.

But then, you are another man that would rather follow a wrong English translation and the wrong resulting doctrine, than the Greek.

But wait! You don't know Greek or Hebrew, do you?

I rest my case!

 

[Magenta]

Please post the Scripture where elders, pastors, and overseers are conflated to one office, or even mentioned together.

The word pastor is only used once, in Ephesians 4:11

Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, [SUP]12 [/SUP]to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up [SUP]13 [/SUP]until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.​

 

[Dino246]

Here is this entire debate in a nutshell. God has issued much greater authority unto man in the society and in the church as opposed to the woman. This is demonstrated within many, many verses in the Bible. However many are not willing to acknowledge these clear differences in authority as defined by God, so they will attempt anything and everything to try to nullify the authority structure God has clearly given. Normally, it is women who do not wish to properly acknowledge God's authority structure due their desire to be equal in authority with man, but there are also some very weak men willing to give up the authority God has given unto them as demonstrated within these pages.

Well, God has so ordained that what comes out of nutshells is... nuts.

 

[Angela53510]

PS. I am no liberal feminist. I abandoned that long ago, when I saw the untold damage they were doing to the family and society. But, I do read and study Greek. If the Greek said men were only to be in authority, I would submit to the Word of God on this.

But, it does not say that only men can be pastors or in authority, anywhere in the Greek. As for English, well, I think I have posted enough about that, and only gotten nonsense like because Bullinger, a heretic, says a certain verse is "he" even though Greek says no such thing.

Someone is going to have to prove to me from the Greek that men have authority and only men can be pastors. And no one can, because it just isn't there! It is translations that continue to push this terrible bias, and the terrible excesses and abuse of power in the church, that the English, unfortunately, has brought! And the verses are obscure, and disputed, and so few of them to construct such a major doctrine.