Wake up church the time has come.

[CS1]

FYI Prophecy has a forth-telling and a foretelling a now application and coming fulfillment. This is seen very clearly in the New Testament accounts when they were Documented as being fulfilled

example :
Messiah would be born of a Woman Matt 1:23 gal 4:4
Messiah would be born in Bethlehem Matt 2:1,6 Luke 2:4-6
44 of them to be more direct read PS 22 which is the passion of Christ.

none of which had anything to do with Kabbalah

 

[KJV1611]

I'm saying that some men crept in unawares and started teaching that the man of sin is The Antichrist. Those same men taught other men that the covenant Christ confirmed on the cross.... Daniel 9:27 isn't about Christ, it's about a 7 year peace treaty between Israel and the man of sin. The same men who teach that the abomination that left Jerusalem desolate is The Antichrist profaning a temple the Jews are going to build, instead of the abomination of desolation being the abomination of the Jews murdering Christ.

 

[CS1]

Look I'm not saying anybody here uses Kabbalah. I'm saying the doctrines of the 7 year tribulation, the Antichrist and all those other things that people think come from the bible DON'T come from the bible. Certain men crept in unawares and started that line of thinking. They got that line of thinking from the Kabbalah.

Ok ,

I understand your point but that is a very blanketed comment and you must prove the Kabbalah because to refute your claim Biblically the doctrine of the Taking of the Church known and The rapture found that word in the lain Bible was built off of Mathew 24, 1thess 4:13 2cor, Rev and many other scriptural texts. None of them have anything to do with kabbalah. Your comment must be proven because the doctrine of the coming and taking up of the church was not based on Kabbalah.

 

[CS1]

I'm saying that some men crept in unawares and started teaching that the man of sin is The Antichrist. Those same men taught other men that the covenant Christ confirmed on the cross.... Daniel 9:27 isn't about Christ, it's about a 7 year peace treaty between Israel and the man of sin. The same men who teach that the abomination that left Jerusalem desolate is The Antichrist profaning a temple the Jews are going to build, instead of the abomination of desolation being the abomination of the Jews murdering Christ.

how can you call the abomination of desolation being the jews murdering Jesus when God said in Genesis, Isaiah, PS 22, and The Lord himself that HE came to die and on the third day be raised from the dead? You realize that that idea you are speaking is an anti-Semitic understanding?

 

[KJV1611]

Ok ,

I understand your point but that is a very blanketed comment and you must prove the Kabbalah because to refute your claim Biblically the doctrine of the Taking of the Church known and The rapture found that word in the lain Bible was built off of Mathew 24, 1thess 4:13 2cor, Rev and many other scriptural texts. None of them have anything to do with kabbalah. Your comment must be proven because the doctrine of the coming and taking up of the church was not based on Kabbalah.

Let’s do it.

1Th 4:16 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Jesus says that whoever believes in him will never die. Who were the dead in Christ?

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

the possible martyrs will be those as REV speaks of those beheaded because they would not accept the mark or worship the image of the beast. Forgive me if I came crossed rudely that was not my intent.

We are good.
I think the art of conversation gets kind of lost on these internet formats.

 

[KJV1611]

how can you call the abomination of desolation being the jews murdering Jesus when God said in Genesis, Isaiah, PS 22, and The Lord himself that HE came to die and on the third day be raised from the dead? You realize that that idea you are speaking is an anti-Semitic understanding?

Oh man another Jew fanatic. Acts calls the Jews murderers not me.

Act 7:52 (KJV) Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

 

[CS1]

Let’s do it.

1Th 4:16 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Jesus says that whoever believes in him will never die. Who were the dead in Christ?

ok


good try,

first 1thessalonians 4 context doesn't start in verse 16 but verse 13. You have to ask who was paul speaking to and why did he say that?

The dead in christ here in 1thessalonians are those who Paul said was asleep which was used to describe Christians who have physically died. The same Language Jesus use when he spoke of Lazerus

Paul says :
verse 13


13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, (what is being said right now is from the lord) that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first
The dead in christ are those who were "sleep" as the above verses said.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Those Christians were concerned about those who died before the coming of Lord Paul was speaking and said by the word of The Lord meaning Paul did not tell them this to make them feel good it was the truth of an event that will happen

The dead in Christ also known as those a sleep will rise first!

Don't worry about those who have already died The Lord who has the power to raise the dead will call them out of the graves and they will come forth!

as you should know the psycial body will die because of sin but the hope is the resurrection to receive a glorified body That is why Jesu said those who believe shall never die and yet though he be dead HE shall , live

 

[CS1]

Oh man another Jew fanatic. Acts calls the Jews murderers not me.

Act 7:52 (KJV) Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

my comment was about your's saying Jesus was the abomination of desolation found in Daniel.

that is where we were at now you do a fly-by and pull out Acts and Stephen's Adomishment to the people of their lack of faith?

Is that what you do? someone addresses your previous post then you go to a different biblical text to address the comment I made about a verse you used in Daniel? Now you speak about a jew fanatic? No I think you are just being a jerk now

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I'm telling you that the 7 year tribulation is no where to be found in the bible. The Antichrist is nowhere to be found in the bible. All of these things are rooted in Jewish Kabbalah.

If there is a 7 year tribulation in the bible, please show it to me. Same for The Antichrist.

[re: 1Jn2:18's "...[according-] as ye have heard that antichrist cometh..."... quoting from old post, here:]

In a different thread, I pointed out how the phrase "ye have heard" is used elsewhere in Scripture (ex. scattered throughout Matt5, namely vv.21,27,33,38,43... speaking of actual OT references--this is the purpose of the "ye have heard" phrase [not mere "rumours"])
[...]

He says, "YE HAVE HEARD that antichrist cometh" (stating fact), and then says, "EVEN NOW many antichrists HAVE ARISEN" (stating fact). [...]

The writer is directing their attention to what was before them in their present day time-frame ("many antichrists [plural] HAVE ARISEN"--even/and [kai] NOW...

[end quoting post excerpt]


Back in Dan9:[27a/b/c] 26b it had said, "[the prince that] SHALL COME" (note: after "the Messiah the Prince shall be CUT OFF and have nothing" v.26a [SEQUENTIALLY]), and the word for "prince" (v.26b [again SEQUENTIALLY *after* v.26a!!]) is shown in the Septuagint (LXX [Greek OT]; "hegeomai [G2233]") as meaning:

B.

iii. a prince, of regal power, governor, viceroy, chief, leading as respects influence, controlling in counsel, overseers or leaders of the churches

iv. used of any kind of leader, chief, commander

v. the leader in speech, chief, spokesman


...like is used in:

--Matt2:6 ['[one] LEADING' https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/2-6.htm (speaking of Jesus, here)],
--Lk22:26 ['[the one] LEADING' https://biblehub.com/text/luke/22-26.htm ],
--Act7:10 ['[appointed him] RULER [over Egypt and all his house]' https://biblehub.com/text/acts/7-10.htm (speaking of Joseph, v.9)],

--Act14:12 ['[the] CHIEF [speaker]'], Act15:22 [same/similar re: CHIEF among],
--Heb13:7 ['[those] LEADING [you]' https://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/13-7.htm ],17,24 [same]


[same word as in LXX of Dan11:22 "PRINCE of the covenant" (not saying this necessarily is the same person)]


[note also "whose COMING is after the working of Satan..." 2Th2:9a]

____________

bottom line: this is who [they would have] "YE HAVE HEARD" (meaning, from OT SCRIPTURES JUST LIKE Matthew 5 means when it repeatedly uses this identical phrase!)

 

[KJV1611]

ok


good try,

first 1thessalonians 4 context doesn't start in verse 16 but verse 13. You have to ask who was paul speaking to and why did he say that?

The dead in christ here in 1thessalonians are those who Paul said was asleep which was used to describe Christians who have physically died. The same Language Jesus use when he spoke of Lazerus

Paul says :
verse 13


13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, (what is being said right now is from the lord) that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first
The dead in christ are those who were "sleep" as the above verses said.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Those Christians were concerned about those who died before the coming of Lord Paul was speaking and said by the word of The Lord meaning Paul did not tell them this to make them feel good it was the truth of an event that will happen

The dead in Christ also known as those a sleep will rise first!

Don't worry about those who have already died The Lord who has the power to raise the dead will call them out of the graves and they will come forth!

I started there for a reason. The raising of the dead in Christ is already given to us in scripture and we know exactly what it is and when it happened. It happened when Christ rose from the dead and redeemed us and the OT saints that were in Christ.

There is no such thing as the dead in Christ AFTER the cross. No further “rapture” debate can continue until this is fully understood.

 

[KJV1611]

my comment was about your's saying Jesus was the abomination of desolation found in Daniel.

that is where we were at now you do a fly-by and pull out Acts and Stephen's Adomishment to the people of their lack of faith?

Is that what you do? someone addresses your previous post then you go to a different biblical text to address the comment I made about a verse you used in Daniel? Now you speak about a jew fanatic? No I think you are just being a jerk now

I apologize, I’ve been round and round on the Jews being Gods chosen people for several days. My apologies.

Let’s stick with the rapture discussion and then come back to this one.

 

[KJV1611]

[re: 1Jn2:18's "...[according-] as ye have heard that antichrist cometh..."... quoting from old post, here:]

In a different thread, I pointed out how the phrase "ye have heard" is used elsewhere in Scripture (ex. scattered throughout Matt5, namely vv.21,27,33,38,43... speaking of actual OT references--this is the purpose of the "ye have heard" phrase [not mere "rumours"])
[...]

He says, "YE HAVE HEARD that antichrist cometh" (stating fact), and then says, "EVEN NOW many antichrists HAVE ARISEN" (stating fact). [...]

The writer is directing their attention to what was before them in their present day time-frame ("many antichrists [plural] HAVE ARISEN"--even/and [kai] NOW...

[end quoting post excerpt]


Back in Dan9:[27a/b/c] 26b it had said, "[the prince that] SHALL COME" (note: after "the Messiah the Prince shall be CUT OFF and have nothing" v.26a [SEQUENTIALLY]), and the word for "prince" (v.26b [again SEQUENTIALLY *after* v.26a!!]) is shown in the Septuagint (LXX [Greek OT]; "hegeomai [G2233]") as meaning:

B.

iii. a prince, of regal power, governor, viceroy, chief, leading as respects influence, controlling in counsel, overseers or leaders of the churches

iv. used of any kind of leader, chief, commander

v. the leader in speech, chief, spokesman


...like is used in:

--Matt2:6 ['[one] LEADING' https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/2-6.htm (speaking of Jesus, here)],
--Lk22:26 ['[the one] LEADING' https://biblehub.com/text/luke/22-26.htm ],
--Act7:10 ['[appointed him] RULER [over Egypt and all his house]' https://biblehub.com/text/acts/7-10.htm (speaking of Joseph, v.9)],

--Act14:12 ['[the] CHIEF [speaker]'], Act15:22 [same/similar re: CHIEF among],
--Heb13:7 ['[those] LEADING [you]' https://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/13-7.htm ],17,24 [same]


[same word as in LXX of Dan11:22 "PRINCE of the covenant" (not saying this necessarily is the same person)]


[note also "whose COMING is after the working of Satan..." 2Th2:9a]

____________

bottom line: this is who [they would have] "YE HAVE HEARD" (meaning, from OT SCRIPTURES JUST LIKE Matthew 5 means when it repeatedly uses this identical phrase!)

The man of sin is the man who exalts himself above all that is called and sits on throne of God showing himself that he is God.

The man of sin is US before we submit our wills to God and believe the Bible EXACTLY as it’s written.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The man of sin is the man who exalts himself above all that is called and sits on throne of God showing himself that he is God.

Show us the Scripture where it says that he sits "on THRONE OF GOD"

The man of sin is US before we submit our wills to God and believe the Bible EXACTLY as it’s written.

 

[KJV1611]

Show us the Scripture where it says that he sits "on THRONE OF GOD"

Ok I got carried away.

 

[CS1]

I started there for a reason. The raising of the dead in Christ is already given to us in scripture and we know exactly what it is and when it happened. It happened when Christ rose from the dead and redeemed us and the OT saints that were in Christ.

There is no such thing as the dead in Christ AFTER the cross. No further “rapture” debate can continue until this is fully understood.

The reason why I disagree is that paul addressed those who were dead and were saved or Christians The Poijt Paul made was twofold

1. that sleep was symbolic as Jesus used that very term in speaking about those who were dead If you remember Jesus had to come out and tell the disciples Lazerus had died or was dead.

2. When Paul wrote to the Thessalonians church Jesus had already risen from the dead and was taken up into Heaven.

3. the young church did not understand fully those who fell asleep SO Paul made it clear Those dead in Christ. That is what is said in 1thess 4:13-18. The context is right there. Paul can address both the context of physically being dead and the supernatural event of Jesus raising them up. You may not like the term rapture but you can't change the context of 1thess 4:13-18 because you don't like it.

Paul was addressing right then those who were dead as it was the concern of those in that church.

 

[KJV1611]

The reason why I disagree is that paul addressed those who were dead and were saved or Christians The Poijt Paul made was twofold

1. that sleep was symbolic as Jesus used that very term in speaking about those who were dead If you remember Jesus had to come out and tell the disciples Lazerus had died or was dead.

2. When Paul wrote to the Thessalonians church Jesus had already risen from the dead and was taken up into Heaven.

3. the young church did not understand fully those who fell asleep SO Paul made it clear Those dead in Christ. That is what is said in 1thess 4:13-18. The context is right there. Paul can address both the context of physically being dead and the supernatural event of Jesus raising them up. You may not like the term rapture but you can't change the context of 1thess 4:13-18 because you don't like it.

Paul was addressing right then those who were dead as it was the concern of those in that church.

Ok I see your point, that's the belief that I came from also.

How do you reconcile this?

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Ok I got carried away.

... ^ a "biblical" word, for sure:


[G4879] sunapagó: to lead away with, fig. to be carried away with (pass.)
Original Word: συναπάγω
[...]
Definition: to lead away with, to be carried away with (pass.)
Usage: I lead away with, carry along with (in good or bad sense according to context); mid: I conform myself willingly to.

https://biblehub.com/greek/4879.htm - 3x






[ ]

 

[CS1]

Ok I see your point, that's the belief that I came from also.

How do you reconcile this?

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jesus is the overcome of death of the grave which is physical and hell which is an eternal death, Jesus is the giver of eternal life

 

[KJV1611]

Jesus is the overcome of death of the grave which is physical and hell which is an eternal death, Jesus is the giver of eternal life

Yes we as believers have eternal life right now, we will never die. This body will die as soon as the spirit leaves it and our spirit will be changed into our eternal bodies and will be with the Lord in heaven for eternity. Hence there is no such thing literally or figuratively as the dead in Christ after the resurrection of Christ.