Obedience REQUIRED

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I understand what you mean by this statement but beware there are those on this forum who are ready to pounce by suggesting that you are attempting to "earn" your salvation.

To them this is all it takes to label someone a "works-salvationist".

Mailmandan is licking his chops about now.
Frankly speaking, I don't care.
As the only works ever written agaisnt were the works of the Law, I have done nothing to fit the anti-works profile.
 
Yep, Jesus said in John 10:30 - “I and my Father are one”
He also said "I came forth from the Father" in John 16:28, so God and His Word cannot be separated.

1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One.



Which is why they don't resist temptation. They just get jiggy with it and sin!
Then make excuses for being in sin as though it's not their fault
Just keep praying that they will eventually open their eyes to the truth that can make them free. (John 8:32-34)
 
Freed18,
your explicit claim that your salvation is up to you is a complete denial of Scripture and confirms exactly what I have been saying about you - that you completely reject Jesus Christ as THE Savior, which up to now, you have denied.
No, it doesn't.
By accepting all that God provided for my salvtion, I also accept the reponsibility for my actions.
Don't you accept responsibility for your actions ?
By claiming that God only made salvation available and that the final outcome depends on your own willpower and actions on judgment day, you are openly admitting that you are relying on yourself as savior, not on Jesus Christ.
Oh, I see your perspective.
You don't equate faith with action.
I believe a man can remain true to God, by faith in Christ.
However, Matthew 1:21 states flatly that He shall save His people from their sins - it is unconditional and not left open that man can achieve it.
Doesn't that mean then, that sinners are not saved ?
We are then, in agreement.
God opened the door to salvtion, and the sinners have rejected it.
As I have said to you repeatedly, you demonstrate that do not believe Jesus Christ is THE Savior, even though Scripture beyond question, says that He is. Anway, I am glad to see that you've finally decided to come clean and place your cards on the table thereby ending the need for any further debate.
I am glad we are in agreement that the sinners are not of God.
 
Freed18,
your explicit claim that your salvation is up to you is a complete denial of Scripture and confirms exactly what I have been saying about you - that you completely reject Jesus Christ as THE Savior, which up to now, you have denied.
Isn't our salvation dependent on accepting Christ ?
Isn't that choice ours to make ?
By claiming that God only made salvation available and that the final outcome depends on your own willpower and actions on judgment day, you are openly admitting that you are relying on yourself as savior, not on Jesus Christ.
Not at all.
Christ in me is doing the work.
Like Paul in Gal2:20..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
Christ made salvation available to you.
Didn't you accept it ?
That doesn't lessen what Jesus did at all.
However, Matthew 1:21 states flatly that He shall save His people from their sins - it is unconditional and not left open that man can achieve it.
It is conditional !
We have to accept Jesus as our Lord for our salvation to come to fruition.
As I have said to you repeatedly, you demonstrate that do not believe Jesus Christ is THE Savior, even though Scripture beyond question, says that He is. Anway, I am glad to see that you've finally decided to come clean and place your cards on the table thereby ending the need for any further debate.
God won't save those who don't want to be saved.
We must do our part too, in recognizing the Giver, as well as accepting the conditions of our salvation.
Those conditions ?
Love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength.
And love our neighbors as we love ourselvs.
 
Yes you do and your not saved by "these" works (works of the law) but saved by "those" works (good works)) argument is bogus and still culminates in salvation b obedience/works.
I find it odd that you don't think that obeying God is necesary to be saved.
I simply pointed out that when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law. (Exodus 20:1-17; Leviticus 19:18; Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37-40)
Define 'moral aspects of the Law', please.
Is loving our neighbor as ourselves by giving them things which are needed for the body (James 2:15-16) considered a good work?
Sure.
Is loving our neighbor as ourselves excluded from the law of Moses?
No, and in fact is the culmination of the Law.
Why don't you explain to me which good works that a Christian could accomplish which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments (Matthew 22:37-40) which are found in the law of Moses. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18)
Can't think of a thing.
Not at all because John is not teaching sinless perfection. It's about the direction of our walk and not the perfection of our walk.
I can't agree.
Why walk in a direction that is unachievable ?
You error by interpreting 1 John 1:6-9 through the lens of sinless perfection.
How can a man walk in the light-God, and darkness-sin, at the same time ?
John is writing to the church about two very different kinds of walk and people.
We are either sinners or saints in the eyes of God based on our salvation or lack of salvation status.
I agree.
There are no non-sinners who never sin. (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10)
Then there are none who will be saved.
But I know that some folks walk in the light, and have had all theirpast sins washed away by the blood of Christ.
If they continue on in the light, they will be saved on the day of judgement.
So, now you admit there is a moral aspect of the law.
Again, define moral aspect of the Law.
I am assuming you mean the ten commandments.
You still cannot dissect the moral aspect of the law from the law of Moses
Define moral aspects of the Law, please.
Sinners become saints through faith in Jesus Christ and not through sinless perfection.
Do you not belive that Jesus has the power to make us perfectly obedient ?
So, you believe that you will be saved based on the merits of perfectly obeying the ten commandments, and that's not salvation by works?
That is not salvation by the works of the Law that Paul wrote against.
Will we not be judged on the last day for our actions done on earth ?
You write as though we won't be.
 
Your implication was that BOTH repentance AND baptism are for (in order to obtain) the remission of sins. My point is if that's the case then what happened to baptism in (Luke 24:47; And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Baptism is the means of the remission of sins.
Acts 3:19; Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
Baptism is part and parcel of being converted.
5:31; Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Baptism is the means of sin's forgiveness.
10:43; To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is th means of sin's forgiveness.
11:17, Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Baptism was Peter's very next action.
18; When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
This was the Jew's reponse to Peter's rehashing of the events at Cornelius' home.
13:38-39; Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins and repentance from sin would have been the next things spoken of to the believing folks at Antioch in Pisidia.
15:7-9; Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins wasn't the topic of Paul's oratory.
Forcing Gentiles to keep the Law was the topic...primarily, circumcion.
26:18)? To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
The mechanics of salvtion weren't the topic of Paul's defense before king Agrippa.
You you can try and sugarcoat it all you want but you still teach salvation by works.
Not the works of the Law that Paul wrote against.
If a man wants to be saved, he is required to do certain things.
Initially, hearing and believing.
Holks will then either turn from sin and get baptized, or they will try to defnd their rebellion and leave.

Believers have been washed, sanctified and justified. (1 Corinthians 6:11) That is not a polluted temple. Just because believers are born again does not mean that our fresh has been resurrected.
Believers, yes.
Posers, no.
These Gentiles spoke in tongues which confirmed to the Jews that God had accepted them. Keep in mind that these Gentiles believed, received the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit, along with the spiritual gift of tongues (spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - (1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47)

In regard to  calling on the name of the Lord, Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160].

Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT).

The Spirit, Jesus' baptism and his cross shed at His crucifixion all bear witness and agree. What did I divide?

I will agree with Peter after considering everything Peter had to say instead of what you have been taught about your one pet verse.

I already thoroughly covered Acts 2:38 in post #550.

Paul did not merely limit works merely to the ceremonial aspect of the law but includes works in general. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

Repentance is a change of mind which precedes salvation through faith in Christ. (Acts 20:21) Two sides to the same coin. You seem to erroneously place repentance after faith and redefine it as sinless perfection. Faith in Christ unto salvation actually "precedes" water baptism.
If you turn form sinning, you are a non-sinner.
 
Isn't our salvation dependent on accepting Christ ?
Isn't that choice ours to make ?

Not at all.
Christ in me is doing the work.
Like Paul in Gal2:20..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
Christ made salvation available to you.
Didn't you accept it ?
That doesn't lessen what Jesus did at all.

It is conditional !
We have to accept Jesus as our Lord for our salvation to come to fruition.

God won't save those who don't want to be saved.
We must do our part too, in recognizing the Giver, as well as accepting the conditions of our salvation.
Those conditions ?
Love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength.
And love our neighbors as we love ourselvs.
Again I'm giving you another chance to know something important, the acceptance starts with the father first, I've diligently searched the scriptures over this, and scripture is clear on this. scripture is also clear the father seeks first.

All your doing is supporting Catholic doctrine in one way or another. And believe me when I say the catholics have found a thousand different reasons as to how you can be ex communicated from there faith and God over the centuries, one being you must perform works in order to have your grace increased.

With millions of cathlics and Catholicism being more supported than any other denomination, the dispute they cause to people outside of there faith is pretty much wide spread, and so far in this thread I have seen many of there arguments,

The best part is none of you are saying your Catholic, whilst quoting all there arguments.

It's ridiculous, also with baptism and confession of the holy spirit they believe that each person only gets a measure of grace, reason being a person can have sone element of unbelief in there heart or not be completely sincere with confession.

In there works of performance and merit some Catholics will curse anyone who believes other wise.

Many thanks to @amazingrace and @ScooterJackson for there Catholic doctrines 😛
 
Yep, Jesus said in John 10:30 - “I and my Father are one”
He also said "I came forth from the Father" in John 16:28, so God and His Word cannot be separated.

1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One.



Which is why they don't resist temptation. They just get jiggy with it and sin!
Then make excuses for being in sin as though it's not their fault
Scooter, let me give you a proper bike,

A Kawasaki now I may even give you a piggy back 😂

Now listen scooter as you have an issue here with listening and being easily deflected, the discussion is not whether the father and son are one but whether your both interested in knowing something important, which will or may help you in your Dodgy scooter trails, I do hope @Freed18 is listening.

Now better still the truth can set you free.

Acceptance starts with the father first 👍

Happy scooting
 
I find it odd that you don't think that obeying God is necessary to be saved.
I find it odd that you think you can merit salvation through sinless, perfect obedience. (Romans 3:23; 6:23; 1 John 1:8-10) ⚠️ The obedience that comes from faith (Romans 1:5) is the mark of genuine faith so no obedience at all would demonstrate no faith. Jesus Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone (Romans 3:24-26) and not based on the merits of our obedience/works. (Romans 4:2-6) Genuine faith produces obedience/works so obedience/works is necessary in the sense that it is the fruit of salvation and no fruit/works at all would demonstrate there is no root/faith. (James 2:14)
Define 'moral aspects of the Law', please.
The moral aspect of the law refers to divinely ordained standards that are universal and timeless, intended to guide human conduct in a way that aligns with God’s holiness and justice. Unlike ceremonial or civil laws, which were specific to Israel’s historical and cultural context, the moral law is rooted in God’s unchanging nature and applies to all people
Amen!
No, and in fact is the culmination of the Law.
For the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. (Romans 13:8)
Can't think of a thing.
Thank you for making my point. :)
I can't agree.
Why walk in a direction that is unachievable?
If it's achievable then why does the Bible say in Ecclesiastes 7:20 that there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins? If it's achievable then why does the Bible say ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God? (Romans 3:23) Also, if it's achievable, why does the Bible say, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us??? (1 John 1:8-10)
How can a man walk in the light-God, and darkness-sin, at the same time?
John is writing to the church about two very different kinds of walk and people.
A man cannot walk in the light and darkness at the same time, as I already explained to you in post #333. Again, our walk is about location (in the light) and direction (walking in that direction) and not perfection.
No, you believe we are either sinners or saints based on sinless perfection or a lack of sinless perfection.
Then there are none who will be saved.
All believers will be saved. (John 3:18; Acts 13:38-39) The bad news: ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death. The good news: BUT the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 3:23; 6:23) Not through sinless perfection. (1 John 1:8-10)
But I know that some folks walk in the light and have had all their past sins washed away by the blood of Christ.
If they continue on in the light, they will be saved on the day of judgement.
Is Jesus blood only good enough to wash away past sins only? Continuing to walk in the light is proof of genuine conversion.
Again, define moral aspect of the Law.
I am assuming you mean the ten commandments.
Once again, the moral aspect of the law refers to divinely ordained standards that are universal and timeless, intended to guide human conduct in a way that aligns with God’s holiness and justice. Unlike ceremonial or civil laws, which were specific to Israel’s historical and cultural context, the moral law is rooted in God’s unchanging nature and applies to all people.
Define moral aspects of the Law, please.
I already answered this question twice. 👀
Do you not believe that Jesus has the power to make us perfectly obedient?
Jesus' power is not the problem. Our flesh is the problem. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
That is not salvation by the works of the Law that Paul wrote against.
The 10 commandments are included in the law of Moses, so is that a yes to my question? You believe that you will be saved based on the merits of perfectly obeying the ten commandments? Are you really that delusional?
Will we not be judged on the last day for our actions done on earth?
You write as though we won't be.
Believers will be judged according to their works in order to determine rewards and loss of rewards. 1 Corinthians 3:11 - For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Unbelievers will be judged, condemned and cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15) Instead of rewards there will only be condemnation for unbelievers and for some greater condemnation. Matthew 23:14 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore, you will receive greater condemnation.
 
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You don't understand!

Understanding is a gift of the Spirit!

Mt 7:7 ask and you shall receive

Scripture also says those in the flesh cannot please God

Are you in the flesh?

Thks
I do understand

Grace is from the greek Charis, from where we get our word Charity.''

Charity is a bad word to most people. How dare you think I need charity. its why they reject grace. because in reality that is what it is.

we must become poor in spirit.. If we think we can in some part do something to gain Gods favor. qwe will never recieve Cherity (grace)
 
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It may be you may not be best friend with people here, but we should be on guard at all time,

And the reality is everyone who attackd once saved, is generally either catholic pouncing on people or a loud mouth, I know the complete history, and if you want to be on there side, and excuse there behaviour in favour of we must bullies if we don't agree with there arguments , well I can guarantee somebody higher up than me will not be impressed, how you cut his children of for favour of anti saved once saved people, who just randomly accuse people of all sorts.
alot of it today comes from Anti Calvinist or Anti reformed Stance.

they feel OSAS is a Calvinist doctrine. so they must defeat it at all cost.
 
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Frankly speaking, I don't care.
As the only works ever written agaisnt were the works of the Law, I have done nothing to fit the anti-works profile.
you replace works of the law with your own works.

your incuring debt not grace.

turn to God. become poor in spirit. be like the tax collector. reject the phariseeic doctrine you hold on to.
 
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Isn't our salvation dependent on accepting Christ ?
Isn't that choice ours to make ?

Freed18,
No. It is a free gift given by God to His elect children. Nothing is required from them; everything is given to them, and that's what makes salvation by His grace alone. Jesus Christ is the Savior—man is not.
 
@ScooterJackson

A friendly bit of advice

A neighbour of mine who has a scooter, seemed a sensible lad, and always wore his helmet every time he went out, and he always came back safely. Or so we thought.

Until we noticed him riding a electric trials bike not an ebike or his scooter without a helmet on, 😨

We discovered the neighbour he was borrowing another kids bike of was modding it's performance without adequate brakes, so much so this electric trial bike could reach 80 mph. To much performance I thought when I saw it.

We started to see what we thought was a sensible neighbour, not only riding up and down the street without a helmet on and crashing into garden fences, becoz be couldn't brake in time, he was passing the bike on to teenagers who had no experience and started pulling wheelies,.

Well one day one kid almost broke his back which a kid of s good friend of mine.

So I decide to try and talk to the once sensible, or so I thought lad, to see why he was behaving like a numpty, it turned out he was on med and smoking cannabis.

So I thought the best thing I could do was speak to the parents, of the kid who almost broke his back,


I can assure you they where not happy after I showed them the video evidence.


Anyhoo I just thought I would mention it because if you dont start being truly obedient you to will have a father in heaven who will keep wondering when are you going to see sense 🤔
 
Baptism is the means of the remission of sins.
Not according to scripture: What happened to baptism below?

Luke 24:47 - and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 5:31 - Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.

Acts 13:38 - Therefore, let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

Repentance and faith are two sides to the same coin. Where you have one you must have the other. Where only one is mentioned the other is implied or assumed. Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ
Baptism is part and parcel of being converted.
Not according to scripture. Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?
Baptism is the means of sin's forgiveness.
Christ's death, burial and resurrection is the means of sin's forgiveness and faith in Christ is the instrumental means by which we receive that forgiveness. (Romans 3:24-26)
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is the means of sin's forgiveness.
Repentance is the instrumental means (faith implied or assumed) of sin's forgiveness. (Acts 3:19; 5:31; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 26:18)
Baptism was Peter's very next action.
Baptism is the very next action that follows believing and receiving the forgiveness of sins. (Acts 10:43-47)
This was the Jew's reponse to Peter's rehashing of the events at Cornelius' home.
When did the household of Cornelius receive the forgiveness of sins? Before or after baptism? The answer is obviously BEFORE. Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins and repentance from sin would have been the next things spoken of to the believing folks at Antioch in Pisidia.
Repentance is unto the remission of sins. You need to read Acts 2:38 alongside of (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31). *Hermeneutics.
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins wasn't the topic of Paul's oratory.
Forcing Gentiles to keep the Law was the topic...primarily, circumcion.
You seem to be obsessed with water baptism and the ceremonial aspect of the law.
The mechanics of salvtion weren't the topic of Paul's defense before king Agrippa.
You are full of excuses with no solutions. :(
Not the works of the Law that Paul wrote against.
Not works in general including the moral aspect of the law (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) that Paul wrote against as the basis or means of obtaining salvation.
If a man wants to be saved, he is required to do certain things.
Initially, hearing and believing.
Merely initially? So, Christ merely initially saves us through believing then we must do the rest because His finished work of redemption is IN-sufficient to save believers? (Romans 3:24-26) Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.

Romans 10:17 - So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify of Him, that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.
Holks will then either turn from sin and get baptized, or they will try to defend their rebellion and leave.
Repentance does not mean sinless perfection. Salvation by sinless perfection + baptism is a false gospel.
Believers, yes.
Posers, no.
Posers, as in those who believe in themselves, in their performance/works for salvation instead of believing in Christ for salvation?
If you turn form sinning, you are a non-sinner.
1 John 1:8-10. ⚠️
 
alot of it today comes from Anti Calvinist or Anti reformed Stance.

they feel OSAS is a Calvinist doctrine. so they must defeat it at all cost.
There will be a growing number of supporters of that I can imagine, it's mainly the Catholics who truly hate Calvin's beliefs, and a none works based religion tho,

The whole thing is madness and out of control but with so many drama queens around who think they can be better than you, and all that jazz, when ever a bit of drama comes along, they spring up from every where, behaving like gay people with there knickers in a twist.

They need to learn to be quiet and study and listen to to good sound advice from there elders, but I just wish they would all shut up 🤐
 
alot of it today comes from Anti Calvinist or Anti reformed Stance.

they feel OSAS is a Calvinist doctrine. so they must defeat it at all cost.
For those who are anti-OSAS and particularly, those who seem to be suffering from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome, Calvinism does seem to be their boogeyman.