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which is what I have been saying all along. so what point are you trying to make?
If we are doing anything that is called a sacrament in hopes that that thing will save us, have a part in our salvation, or our salvation has a thing to do with that sacrament, it is a work based on the scriptural sense of the word.
Even if it is not for salvation, it is still called a work. Only in this case, it is a work which is a fruit of our repentance and faith.
Baptize is merely a Greek word which means to immerse, to be placed into, or to be overwhelmed with, Baptize is not an English word, but a transliteration of the Greek word. One must also note the word circumcision. One does not circumcise themself either, yet the NT states that circumcision is a work of the law. And we are not saved by works. thus using this example. Baptism most certainly is a work.
again, this is what I have been saying all along. so I fail to see your point.
Yet this is where we run into problems. Scripture says spirit baptism and water baptism are separate events. It is an error to think spirit baptism and water baptism are intertwined as to happen at the same time. for this holds the work of God in check until man does a work himself.
None, Except to show that I was willing to profess my faith to everyone, and not afraid of the one who saved me.
No
lol. I like ho you added the words "in and by itself" If salvation is based on ones water baptism at all, even if it is not totally on the baptism (ie in and of itself) is in error. and using it as a work to save him.
Thats not the way I see it. That is following a catholic frame of mind and viewpoint, which we should get away from. Unfortunately many of the old reformers kept many of the catholic teachings and traditions. and still use them today, thus they have not completely broken away from the catholic church and made a fresh start. they are still tainted by them in my viewpoint.
I see grace like this. Any day I wake up and I am not in hell, I have been given grace. Any time I sin and am still living after that sin, I have been given grace. Any time I recieve anything good from my father, I have been given grace. An unbeliever is given grace by the mere fact he is still alive and still able to repent. Anything we recieve, whether good or bad, is by grace, because we all deserve on thing, and that is an eternity apart from God.
now if you wanted to reword that and say it allows God to bless us, instead of chasten us, i can see that, because any time we do not do the command of God we are in sin, and deserving of chastening. we will not be blessed if we are being chastened. One who will not even do Gods first command would be in chastening mode, and not grow in christ, and is missing out on many blessings.
what do you mean here, you used gifts and graces in plural.
if we do not get the one gift, there will be no other gift.
again, even an unbeliever recives grace, I think your stuck on the catholic traditional meaning of the word grace and not the literal meaning. which is undeserved favor.
as far as what I meant. The moment we repent and place our faith in Christ, we are saved, whihc means we have been washed by the blood of Christ, and been justified in him. This is immediate and not conditioned on anything. God did all the work (including the HS, who baptised us and through this baptism cleansed us)
For those who say water baptism is a requirement at any level for one to be saved, they say that this does not happen immediately after true repentnance and faith, but there is a time laps between the time a person repents, and has saving faith, and the time they get immersed in water. which could be days, even weeks in some circumstances.
The question I have for those who believe in baptismal regeneration, is what if the person dies inbetween, is the person lost because he did not have a chance to be baptised in water yet? or is he saved, and how could he be saved if he did not get baptised yet?
I agree, but unfortunately many place what the fathers say as gospel truth, and hold them equal to scripture. this leaves us stuck in a traditional rut, and unable to search the scripture for truth. The big example in this discussion is what grace is. Grace is underserved favor. We recieve grace every minute we are alive. We do not do work to allow channels of Gods grace to flow to us, This makes no sense. and is just a roman excuse to add their sacraments as a means to salvation, which unfortunately passed on in part to some of the reformers.
If we are doing anything that is called a sacrament in hopes that that thing will save us, have a part in our salvation, or our salvation has a thing to do with that sacrament, it is a work based on the scriptural sense of the word.
Even if it is not for salvation, it is still called a work. Only in this case, it is a work which is a fruit of our repentance and faith.
In greek the verb for baptism used in NT is baptizo (Βαπτιζω
and it's used almost entirely in the passive voice. In english it would be translated something like “be baptized”. It is about something done to you and not something you do to yourself. That is an argument that baptism is not a work, by Pauline standard. Another argument is that the mindset at hand here does not indicate that it is a work to earn something. There is nothing meritorious about baptism at all. Those who yet think it is are off base.
and it's used almost entirely in the passive voice. In english it would be translated something like “be baptized”. It is about something done to you and not something you do to yourself. That is an argument that baptism is not a work, by Pauline standard. Another argument is that the mindset at hand here does not indicate that it is a work to earn something. There is nothing meritorious about baptism at all. Those who yet think it is are off base.
again, this is what I have been saying all along. so I fail to see your point.
Yet this is where we run into problems. Scripture says spirit baptism and water baptism are separate events. It is an error to think spirit baptism and water baptism are intertwined as to happen at the same time. for this holds the work of God in check until man does a work himself.
None, Except to show that I was willing to profess my faith to everyone, and not afraid of the one who saved me.
No
lol. I like ho you added the words "in and by itself" If salvation is based on ones water baptism at all, even if it is not totally on the baptism (ie in and of itself) is in error. and using it as a work to save him.
Thats not the way I see it. That is following a catholic frame of mind and viewpoint, which we should get away from. Unfortunately many of the old reformers kept many of the catholic teachings and traditions. and still use them today, thus they have not completely broken away from the catholic church and made a fresh start. they are still tainted by them in my viewpoint.
I see grace like this. Any day I wake up and I am not in hell, I have been given grace. Any time I sin and am still living after that sin, I have been given grace. Any time I recieve anything good from my father, I have been given grace. An unbeliever is given grace by the mere fact he is still alive and still able to repent. Anything we recieve, whether good or bad, is by grace, because we all deserve on thing, and that is an eternity apart from God.
now if you wanted to reword that and say it allows God to bless us, instead of chasten us, i can see that, because any time we do not do the command of God we are in sin, and deserving of chastening. we will not be blessed if we are being chastened. One who will not even do Gods first command would be in chastening mode, and not grow in christ, and is missing out on many blessings.
what do you mean here, you used gifts and graces in plural.
if we do not get the one gift, there will be no other gift.
again, even an unbeliever recives grace, I think your stuck on the catholic traditional meaning of the word grace and not the literal meaning. which is undeserved favor.
as far as what I meant. The moment we repent and place our faith in Christ, we are saved, whihc means we have been washed by the blood of Christ, and been justified in him. This is immediate and not conditioned on anything. God did all the work (including the HS, who baptised us and through this baptism cleansed us)
For those who say water baptism is a requirement at any level for one to be saved, they say that this does not happen immediately after true repentnance and faith, but there is a time laps between the time a person repents, and has saving faith, and the time they get immersed in water. which could be days, even weeks in some circumstances.
The question I have for those who believe in baptismal regeneration, is what if the person dies inbetween, is the person lost because he did not have a chance to be baptised in water yet? or is he saved, and how could he be saved if he did not get baptised yet?
I agree, but unfortunately many place what the fathers say as gospel truth, and hold them equal to scripture. this leaves us stuck in a traditional rut, and unable to search the scripture for truth. The big example in this discussion is what grace is. Grace is underserved favor. We recieve grace every minute we are alive. We do not do work to allow channels of Gods grace to flow to us, This makes no sense. and is just a roman excuse to add their sacraments as a means to salvation, which unfortunately passed on in part to some of the reformers.
