baptism problem

[eternally-gratefull]

@eternally-gratefull
ok I think i am starting to believe your words now.
I thought you were the only one talking about baptising with holy spirit is different to water baptism. Someone else is saying the same you said.

so i will have to look deeper into this.

can you please explain more about the differences between the baptisms?
you said there are 3.

please explain more about this holy spirit baptism.

The big problem everyone gets into is they take a word which is a verb, and make a religious word out of it, The word baptize is nothing but a verb, which means to immerse, plunge or overwhelm, It also, in greek manuscripts which were non religious was used as a term where someone dyed something, like we tie dye shirts. An example would be taking a white shirt, and immersing (baptising) it in a red dye, when the shirt comes out it is red, with no resemblance to what it was before.

In using this example, we took the shirt, the object, We take take it and put it into (baptise) the die,

Scripture speaks of baptism. hebrews tells us there is a doctrine of baptisms (plural) So we already see a doctrine of baptism is plural in nature.

Scripture speaks of these baptisms, we have the following examples.

1. Baptism of holy spirit and fire, which would be done by Jesus,
2. Baptism of John, a baptism of repentnace for the new kingdom
3. Baptism of the church, done in water
4. Baptism of the children of Isreal in moses, in the cloud and in the sea.

out of these baptisms, only two deal with water, John and Christian baptism, the 4th one show us the people of Isreal were placed into (Babtised) moses, being the leader of them in the wilderness, God led moses by the cloud and through the red sea.and the children, being in moses, were also led by God. then of course we have the baptism of jesus.

so when we see baptism, how do we interpret it? Many assume once you see the word, it always means water, well we just proved that wrong, so how do we do it?

first we go to matthew.

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.[a] 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

from this we see

1, John baptised in water
2. Jesus will baptise with HS and fire.

John uses winnowing fan, which is a fan used to separate wheat from chaff in there day, It is through the baptism of the HS where the separation takes place. Those baptised into the spirit are put into the barn as pure wheat (children of God washed by the blood of Christ, Those left are the chaff, whi9ch will be baptised by Christ into the fire, again terms are important, The fire will never be quenched. Only eternal fire has this characteristic. Many want to interpret this to mean the chaff of our lives. Again this is not true, because that is not an eternal fire which does this.

so what is baptism of the HS. what did baptism represent in Gods plan, the first time we see it is when moses "washed" arron and his sons in the jordan river. It representes they were cleansed and set apart for God.

Peter tells us baptism, Like the waters of the flood, represents that which truely saved us, WHich was accomplished by the ressurection of Christ. again we are cleansed and made clean, or set apart (in the barn)

How is this done?

titus 3:5, Not by works of righteousness (good deeds) which we have done ( water baptism would be a good deed) but he saved us by the WASHING and regeneration of the HS., here is the washing performed by the HS, this is HS Baptism, what happens after this? regeneration. or new life, born again in Christ.

Rom 6. Baptism into death and burial. This can only be done by the HS, Only the HS can baptise us in the death and burial of Christ. Also notice, to prove it is not water, Paul says we WILL BE RAISED as he was raised, Water baptism signifies death burial and ressurection, We have not been baptized into his resurrection yet. Our spiritual baptism is not yet ocmplete, will not be until the ressurection.

Baptise into the body. Again, Only the HS has the power to place us into the body of Christ, No pastor or anyone has the power to forgive sin and make us clean, only God has that power. so only God can place us into the body, and who would want a man to do this? A man is imperfect. if a man can do this, it would not be a perfect this, it would be flawed.

The HS does all the work.

1. Paul and Christ tell us it is the words of the gospel which makes us clean. Who is it that helps us understand the gospel? If the things of God are follishness to us before death, someone must help us understand. Scripture tells us it is the holy spirit who convicts, and helps us understand the gospel. so without the HS we would not have the words which make us clean

The HS places us into the death, burial and body of Christ, these things are what makes us fulfill what Jesus said (you indeed will be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with (the cross) Again, only God can do this!

Finally, Remember when I showed how the children of Isreal were baptized into moses? We are said to be baptized into Christ. Christ is our leader. God sent him, And led him all the way to the cross. And God ressurected Christ (Scripture tells us the HS raised Christ from the dead) So wehn we are baptized, or placed into Christ. Like moses led the children of Isreal through Gods leading. We are led by Christ and all he did.

I wrote this fast as I am short on time, I hope it makes sense, If you have any questions let me know and i will try to explain in more detail if I have to

 

[eternally-gratefull]

@tribesman

Actually Circumcision is not replaced, it is still here and performed, however we are now circumcised spiritually by the Holy Spirit
Colossians 2:11-12

John leaped out of her mother's womb? where is the bible reference?

Yes children can be baptised if they know the reason why. Acts never mentioned the age of the children so you can't really use Act as an evidence. It is a weak source/backup. Basically 20% fact and 80% opinion.

Yes but the point is, why baptise someone when they don't know what they are being baptised for?
it is like going to the street and saying "we are in the spiritual warfare, with the heavenly realms, demon realms and spirit realm. You need to be baptised to be saved".
The person says "ok cool" but doesn't even know the reason why he's being baptised. And then go on to his worldly living. This is why Jesus said, "and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded"
You think baptising a baby can obey Jesus Commands?
ok we can say when they grow up you can teach them. But wouldn't the teaching be too much? thus this is EXACTLY why people turn to Atheist. Over the years they grow reason and doubts and start questioning all their belief and just loose faith.

We HAVE to be saved by Jesus so we should be released from our slave sin.
I know that once we are born, we are in sin. But if we commit a sin then we are a slave. We need to be a slave in order for Jesus to free us.
When a baby is born into sin, and you try to save the baby, it doesn't work that way. The baby needs to grow up and live his/her life as a sinful person THEN needs to Repent to be born again and for Jesus to free.


@mpaper345
well said!
We need to repent first before Jesus can free us from our slave.
Babies cannot speak or repent, so how can Jesus free them?

And you bring a big point!
Jesus did tell us and the Apostles to baptism in the Trinity name, but Paul and others said they baptise in Jesus name,
But remember, Paul and others baptise in Jesus name into the water.
But Jesus didn't say anything about water baptism, he said baptism in the trinity name.

This is what Eternally-Gratefull was trying to tell me, that there are different ways of baptism.
I was asking how can one be baptised by Holy Spirit. I think it is by prayer.


@oldhermit
yes please...what is your insight on it?

Yes and look what Paul said about this

11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[a] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,


This is what happened to us, rememebr circumcision represented being cleansed


Next, paul tells us how this was done



12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.



It is the WORK OF GOD which buried us WITH Christ in baptism, And raised us through faith,





13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,



And here, Regeneration or renewal. See also titus 3 5. who does the washing and regeneration> THE HS. This is not water baptism here, This is spiritual circumcision being done by God through spiritual baptism. and regeneration through Christ.

 

[tribesman]

Yes and look what Paul said about this

11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[a] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,


This is what happened to us, rememebr circumcision represented being cleansed


Next, paul tells us how this was done



12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.



It is the WORK OF GOD which buried us WITH Christ in baptism, And raised us through faith,

Yes, God is at work in water baptism. Any problem with that?

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

And here, Regeneration or renewal. See also titus 3 5. who does the washing and regeneration> THE HS. This is not water baptism here, This is spiritual circumcision being done by God through spiritual baptism. and regeneration through Christ.

...of which water baptism is part.

 

[TheAristocat]

Have you been baptised?
a simple question.


I found out that Christiening (sprinkling water on an infant as baptism) means nothing and is not even in the bible.
It is just another human rule tradition.

Ever since I found out, I've been anxious to get baptised, now the problem is, many churches around me are turning baptism into what they want.

Originally when you repent, you get baptised straight away however churches are using baptism as an opportunity to trap people as members of their church.
This is what we call Church Denomination, meaning getting baptised with a church means you are a member of the church. Another way of saying Baptism by Membership.
To some people, this is a good thing but to others is stupid and just a trap.
Why should one be bounded by 1 church? what if that person wants to visit another church?

I want to get baptised at a usual church I started going to, they told me I must go through a training. What training!???
A friend of mine who is knowledgeable in the bible said he can find out if I can get baptised at his church, now him too is telling me his church needs to get money to perform baptism because they need to rent a pool and I need to be taught a few things before being baptised.
Now the new church I just went today, I asked the pastor if I could get baptised ASAP, he said I will have to wait till September to be baptised. Because it's much like a group baptism.


This is completely retarded and atrocious! What if Jesus comes tomorrow eh? and I'm still bloody waiting to be baptised.

All these churches and their rules!
It is not a big deal to get baptised or hard. All you need is a bathtub, water and dip the person inside. Why all the exaggeration and commotions? Why all the ceremonials man? these things are not even in the bible (unless someone can point them out to me here)


so have you been baptised recently? (not as an infant)
how was the baptism?
and how does your church baptise people?

When I was baptized I had been debating the significance of baptism with one gentleman over the internet for about two weeks. In the end he thought it was necessary to be saved while I thought it was not. However, I did agree that I needed to be baptized. After this discussion with him I went to church and in the end they talked about a big baptism ceremony being performed somewhere by a river. I was like, "Great, it's probably some place really far away; I'll never get to go." Then I found out it was at the river a couple hundred yards from my house. So I prepared my testimony, walked to the river and got baptized. It was really interesting how it worked out.

Anyway, the baptism stems from a ritual in the Torah called a mikvah or immersion. This immersion was to ceremonially cleanse you - not physically or spiritually cleanse you. By the time of John there were themed mikvot such as baptisms unto repentance for the remission of sins. I don't believe that baptism washed your sins away. It was symbolic of washing your sins away. Its main theme was repentance unto the remission of sins. If anything it was the repentance that washed your sins away, but I don't believe that's quite accurate either. Christ's blood is what washes the stain of sin away. By faith we accept his sacrifice and repent.

Traditionally the mikvah was to be performed in water that was aerated and could thus support life. This was done by being baptized in a man-made channel or river of flowing water, and this type of water that could support life was called "water of life" or "living water". Jesus also related himself to this water of life, and it is he who washes away the stain of our sins.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, God is at work in water baptism. Any problem with that?

Yes, a huge problem with this. Especially from a calvanist who claims man has no part in regeneration, your making regeneration and washing dependant on a man working to be water baptized, instead of making it a work of God which happens in the spiritual area of our lives.

...of which water baptism is part.

Negative, Physical baptism, like Physical circumcision is a symbol of the real baptism done with the hands of God. God did not replace a physical act done by men in the OT with a physical act done by men in the NT, It has always been a spiritual cleansing, performed by the one as Paul said who "raised him from the dead" My pastor did not raise Jesus from the dead, He can't wash me spiritually by immersing me in water.

 

[tribesman]

Yes, a huge problem with this. Especially from a calvanist who claims man has no part in regeneration, your making regeneration and washing dependant on a man working to be water baptized, instead of making it a work of God which happens in the spiritual area of our lives.

Negative, Physical baptism, like Physical circumcision is a symbol of the real baptism done with the hands of God. God did not replace a physical act done by men in the OT with a physical act done by men in the NT, It has always been a spiritual cleansing, performed by the one as Paul said who "raised him from the dead" My pastor did not raise Jesus from the dead, He can't wash me spiritually by immersing me in water.

Man has no part in regeneration. It is God who is at work. Yet His grace is not bestowed "senkrecht von oben" but through means. Baptism (water and Spirit) inclusive.

I'm more of the anglican and lutheran position on the sacraments. However, Calvin was not opposed to the sacramental structure of baptism:

...the sacraments always retain their efficacy; but all are not capable of receiving Christ and his gifts...

“My child, are you a Christian in fact as well as in name?
Yes, my father.
How is this known to you?
Because I am baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
“How did you come into this communion of the church? Through baptism. What is this baptism? It is the washing of regeneration and cleansing from sin.”
​

​

PS. I used to believe like you do on this. I don't anymore.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Man has no part in regeneration. It is God who is at work. Yet His grace is not bestowed "senkrecht von oben" but through means. Baptism (water and Spirit) inclusive.

Yet you admit man DOES have a work in regeneration. it is work to go and get baptised, it is work to allow yourself (so many fear it) water baptism is a work of men, a man allows himself to get baptised, and a man does it.

it is not a work if God does it behind the scenes.

When a child is adopted, the child does not do anything, the new parent does the work. all the work. all the hcild did was pass from one parent to another. This is no different than being adopted by God, God did all the work. Jesus purchased our adoption with his blood, The Father is the judge who accepted the adoption and the HS is the one who baptises us into the new family, and seals us with his mark (eph 1)

I'm more of the anglican and lutheran position on the sacraments. However, Calvin was not opposed to the sacramental structure of baptism:

I am sorry to hear that.

[/quote]
PS. I used to believe like you do on this. I don't anymore.[/quote]

I leave you with one verse.
3 [a]You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of [b]the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun [d]by the Spirit, are you now [e]being perfected by the flesh?

 

[tribesman]

Yet you admit man DOES have a work in regeneration. it is work to go and get baptised, it is work to allow yourself (so many fear it) water baptism is a work of men, a man allows himself to get baptised, and a man does it.

No I do NOT admit that at all. Please don't ascribe words to me that I have not even thought.

it is not a work if God does it behind the scenes.

It is a work of God. I reject however ex opere operato (that just the mere performance of the act "does it", even apart from faith). Baptism is tied to promises of God that are to be believed.

Since you have mentioned calvinism, I will quote more of Calvin to show this relation:

"For Baptism testifies that we are washed and purified; the Supper of the Eucharist that we are redeemed. Ablution is figured by water, satisfaction by blood. [...] In the water and blood we have an evidence of purification and redemption." (Institutes 4:14:22)

"Wherefore, let it be a fixed point, that the office of the sacraments differs not from the word of God; and this is to hold forth and offer Christ to us, and, in him, the treasures of heavenly grace. They confer nothing, and avail nothing, if not received in faith, just as wine and oil, or any other liquor, however large the quantity which you pour out, will run away and perish unless there be an open vessel to receive it. ... God, therefore, truly performs whatever he promises and figures by signs; nor are the signs without effect, for they prove that he is their true and faithful author." (Institutes 4:14:17)

"I confess that our weakness requires that sacraments be added to the preaching of the word, as seals by which the promises of God are sealed on our hearts, and that two such sacraments were ordained by Christ, viz., Baptism and the Lord’s Supper—the former to give us an entrance into the Church of God—the latter to keep us in it. The five sacraments imagined by the Papists, and first coined in their own brain, I repudiate.

But although the sacraments are an earnest by which we may be rendered secure of the promises of God, I however acknowledge that they would be useless to us did not the Holy Spirit render them efficacious as instruments, lest our confidence, being fixed on the creature, should be withdrawn from God. Nay, I even confess that the sacraments are vitiated and perverted when it is not regarded as their only aim to make us look to Christ for every thing requisite to our salvation, and whenever they are employed for any other purpose than that of fixing our faith wholly in him.

[...]

In general, I confess that, as well in the supper as in baptism, God gives in reality and effectually whatever he figures in them, but that to the receiving of this great boon we require to join the word with the signs. In which matter I detest the abuse and perversion of the Papists, who have deprived the sacraments of their principal part, viz., the doctrine which teaches the true use and benefit flowing therefrom, and have changed them into magical impostures.

I likewise confess that water, though it is a fading element, truly testifies to us in baptism the true presence of the blood of Jesus Christ, and of his Spirit; and that in the Lord’s Supper the bread and wine are to us true and by no means fallacious pledges that we are spiritually nourished by the body and blood of Christ. And thus I join with the signs the very possession and fruition of that which is therein offered to us." (Brief Confession of Faith).

When a child is adopted, the child does not do anything, the new parent does the work. all the work. all the hcild did was pass from one parent to another. This is no different than being adopted by God, God did all the work. Jesus purchased our adoption with his blood, The Father is the judge who accepted the adoption and the HS is the one who baptises us into the new family, and seals us with his mark (eph 1)

And the covenant sign and seal today is baptism, which has been shown already by scripture.

Your position makes baptism optional and not under command. Do you even believe that water baptism is to be practiced at all?

Calvin again:

“Now baptism was given to us by God for these ends (which I have taught to be common to all sacraments): first to serve our faith before him; secondly, to serve our confession before men…Accordingly, they [e.g., the Zwinglians and Anabaptists] who regarded baptism as nothing but a token and mark by which we confess our religion before men, as soldiers bear the insignia of their commander as a mark of their profession, have not weighed what was the chief point of baptism”

“For inasmuch as [baptism] is given for the arousing, nourishing, and confirming of our faith, it is to be received as from the hand of the Author himself. We ought to deem it certain and proved that it is he who speaks to us through the sign; that it is he who purifies and washes away sins, and wipes out the remembrance of them; that it is he who make us sharers in his death, who deprives Satan of his rule, who weakens the power of our lust; indeed, that it is he who comes into a unity with us so that, having put on Christ, we may be acknowledged God’s children. These things, I say, he performs for our soul within as truly and surely as we see our body outwardly cleansed, submerged, and surrounded with water…And he does not feed our eyes with a mere appearance only, but leads us to the present reality and effectively performs what he symbolizes”. (Institutes, IV.15.14)

I am sorry to hear that.

I leave you with one verse...

*shakes head* Totally unrelated scripture. You have obviously not yet fully understood this issue. Hopefully you will at least read up more on it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No I do NOT admit that at all. Please don't ascribe words to me that I have not even thought.

My friend, you have lied to yourself and you don't even know it. You claim we do not have a part in regeneration, yet you claim we must do our part and be baptized in water to be regenerate, I pray you see the flaw in your logic and viewpoint.

It is a work of God. I reject however ex opere operato (that just the mere performance of the act "does it", even apart from faith). Baptism is tied to promises of God that are to be believed.

yet water baptism is a work of man, not of God. man can not take me to the death and burial of Christ, man can not wash me and make me spiritually clean. man can not baptise me into christ or the body, Only God can do this. he does this the moment we have faith in Christ, not many hours or days later when we do the work of water baptism.

Since you have mentioned calvinism, I will quote more of Calvin to show this relation:

And the covenant sign and seal today is baptism, which has been shown already by scripture.

Your position makes baptism optional and not under command. Do you even believe that water baptism is to be practiced at all?

lol. Paul tells us in eph 1: 13 and 14 we are sealed by the spirit of God, who is our guarantee. Not by being baptised in water.

Do I believe water baptism is to be practiced? YES! Like I believe communion is to be practiced. Going to the assembly is to be practiced, Loving the lord our God is to be practiced. Obaying Gods commands is to be practiced. All of these works are commanded. But none of them have a thing to do with our salvation. We do them BECAUSE we are saved, if we do any or all of them in order TO be saved, we are working to earn salvation, and not recieveing it in Grace.

Calvin again:

*shakes head* Totally unrelated scripture. You have obviously not yet fully understood this issue. Hopefully you will at least read up more on it.

I have studied this issue in great detail, probably more than any doctrine I have ever studied. Trying to replace the work of the HS, or make it dependant on the work of man is blasphemy of the worst kind. No different than those who say we can lose salvation by not working for it. What is the difference between those whoi claim we must earn salvation by the rite of water baptism, and those who claim we must earn it by any other work? There is no difference. They all are trying to earn a grace gift given by God according to his work.

again, NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, we are SAVED BY THE WASHING OF THE HS

it gets no clearer than this/. it is not by a work of righteousness (water baptism) but by the work of God, who washes us in the blood of Christ, not in physical water.

This is another reason to reject looking at history to form our beliefs. And look at scripture and seek guidance from God on these matters of spiritual things God is doing for us. History will lead you astray, because it was written by men,

Scripture will lead you to truth, because it was inspired by God.

 

[tribesman]

...That's where me and tribesman would probably differ. Because that makes God's grace and power conditional upon our repentance. To both of us (correct me if I'm wrong here tribesman) there need not be a single moment where we "Accepted Christ as our personal Lord and Saviour". Some of us grew up in faith and have spent our childhoods being the best Christians we can.

I see repentance as a gift that God bestows on His covenant people and as a fruit of regeneration. Not as a prerequisite that first is being worked up (including preparation) by the unconverted in order to conditionally receive anything.

Faith may well be a family matter. A person may be baptized as an infant and later in life he comes to personal faith. His baptism is still valid and need to be performed again. He is free to go to the communion table.

 

[tribesman]

My friend, you have lied to yourself and you don't even know it. You claim we do not have a part in regeneration, yet you claim we must do our part and be baptized in water to be regenerate, I pray you see the flaw in your logic and viewpoint.

*sighs* You begin to sound like certain other users here, using the strongest words and terms possible when you hear something that just slightly differ from YOUR views.

Listen up now, if you can:

1. I have NOT said that baptism is about doing "our part". As you already know I am clearly opposed to such a view. I am saying that God works in baptism. Why? Because He has laid down promises in it.

2. I am NOT saying that baptism "adds" anything to the finished work at the cross.

3. I am NOT saying that people necessarily gets saved just because they have been baptized.

4. I AM saying that baptism has great significance and importance for those who are saved.

5. I AM saying that water baptism is the normal practice for all who claim to be saved.

6. I AM saying that those who undervalue or minimize the importance and aim of water baptism go wrong.

yet water baptism is a work of man, not of God. man can not take me to the death and burial of Christ, man can not wash me and make me spiritually clean. man can not baptise me into christ or the body, Only God can do this. he does this the moment we have faith in Christ, not many hours or days later when we do the work of water baptism.

This is how you see it. The Bible does not describe baptism in such a way. Your issue is with the "physical" here isn't it? You think that God must always work "in the hidden" and would not think that He can use baptism and communion as work tools. Well, He does. These are not separated from the Word of God.

lol. Paul tells us in eph 1: 13 and 14 we are sealed by the spirit of God, who is our guarantee. Not by being baptised in water.

And therefore we need no water baptism? That's your conclusion?

Do I believe water baptism is to be practiced? YES! Like I believe communion is to be practiced. Going to the assembly is to be practiced, Loving the lord our God is to be practiced. Obaying Gods commands is to be practiced. All of these works are commanded. But none of them have a thing to do with our salvation. We do them BECAUSE we are saved, if we do any or all of them in order TO be saved, we are working to earn salvation, and not recieveing it in Grace.

Yes? We are in agreement about this. You are obviously tilting against windmills. But I wonder what place water baptism has in your belief system.

I have studied this issue in great detail, probably more than any doctrine I have ever studied. Trying to replace the work of the HS, or make it dependant on the work of man is blasphemy of the worst kind. No different than those who say we can lose salvation by not working for it. What is the difference between those whoi claim we must earn salvation by the rite of water baptism, and those who claim we must earn it by any other work? There is no difference. They all are trying to earn a grace gift given by God according to his work.

I have been in this kind of thinking myself. But I have reconsidered the issue and concluded that the zwinglian and related views go waaay too far in their view of baptism. Scripture is clear on that baptism is not only a mark or symbol, it does communicate the reality to us. And NOTHING in the reformed view of baptism has a SLIGHTEST trace of "earning" anything or the "dependency" you talk of. Didn't you read the quotes I posted?

again, NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, we are SAVED BY THE WASHING OF THE HS

it gets no clearer than this/. it is not by a work of righteousness (water baptism) but by the work of God, who washes us in the blood of Christ, not in physical water.

Baptism signifies that you are buried and risen with Christ and ITS reality. Clearly this cannot be separated from water baptism (which you erroneously do). It t is all the work of God, man!

This is another reason to reject looking at history to form our beliefs. And look at scripture and seek guidance from God on these matters of spiritual things God is doing for us. History will lead you astray, because it was written by men,

How was the faith preserved throughout all generations? Is it uninteresting to know who kept the succession alive and who did not? For those interested in the "common faith" history is important. Nothing is new under the sun.

Scripture will lead you to truth, because it was inspired by God.

True. But we have plenty of different interpretations of scripture. Not all are sound.

 

[xino]

@eternally-gratefull

Baptised meaning on Google:
Verb:
Administer baptism to (someone); christen: "he was baptized Joshua".
Admit (someone) into a specified church by baptism: "Mark had been baptized a Catholic".

Dictionary.com
Adj. 1. baptised - having undergone the Christian ritual of baptism

dictionary.com
Baptism
bap·tism (bptzm)
n.
1. A religious sacrament marked by the symbolic application of water to the head or immersion of the body into water and resulting in admission of the recipient into the community of Christians.
2. A ceremony, trial, or experience by which one is initiated, purified, or given a name.

As I see...there are 2 different meaning!
Baptised means prayer and accepting someone as a Christian.
Baptism means immersion.

I get your example of the t-shirt.

1. Yes. I saw a woman's testimony of her being shown the vision of the Rapture. And when Jesus told her to preach her experience/vision to the nation, he gave her the Holy Spirit. Because she said her body was burning in fire, but NOT really burning. Basically just internal burning, so Jesus must have given her the Holy Spirit through fire
2. Yes John's Baptism
3. What is this church baptism?
4. Yes, I like this! In fact, others thought people were baptised on Paul
<1 Corinthians 1 >
13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized intob the name of Paul? 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15


titus 3:5, Not by works of righteousness (good deeds) which we have done ( water baptism would be a good deed) but he saved us by the WASHING and regeneration of the HS., here is the washing performed by the HS, this is HS Baptism, what happens after this? regeneration. or new life, born again in Christ.

because when I repented, my life completely changed and i'm more worshipping God spiritually now


1. Paul and Christ tell us it is the words of the gospel which makes us clean. Who is it that helps us understand the gospel? If the things of God are follishness to us before death, someone must help us understand. Scripture tells us it is the holy spirit who convicts, and helps us understand the gospel. so without the HS we would not have the words which make us clean
hmmm..i dunno but i think i have the holy spirit, because i understand the bible than I ought to know, being guided to good path and made decisions out of my heart.


thank you for your time.
it made sense man

 

[xino]

ok my next question is this.
(i don't mean to question the Big man upstairs)

but why does Jesus tell us to baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

if i walk out the street and just baptise someone by saying, "you are baptised in the name of the father, son and holy spirit man..."
wouldn't that person question me...who is the father and son?

because the Disciples of Jesus baptised people in Jesus Christ.



Because it MAKES sense to me!
When Jesus said we should baptise them in the NAME, of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
They all have names- Father is Jehovah or Jesus Christ, Son is Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit is Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost.

Because why would Jesus say we should baptise people in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Whereas the Disciples baptised in the name of Jesus.
mpaper345 was dead spot on and right!
How can we say Father, SOn and HOly SPirit!? Jesus said, IN THE NAME!
The Father has a name, so does the Son and so does the Holy Spirit.
They are all 1, and their name is Jesus Christ.


The Apostles/Disicples all baptised in the name of Jesus Christ...which is what Jesus meant by baptising in the divine names.
This was a little parable by Jesus.
If we don't know him, then we don't know the Father nor Holy Spirit, therefore we can't baptise in his name.
Thus why people say "I baptise you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" *dips in water 3 times*
This is so wrong and such a false doctrine teaching and action.


wow!
Thank you Father for sending me your holy spirit and wisdom, so he and she can teach me about your words in the bible!
I've finally learnt the SIMPLE instruction you meant!

 

[follower_of_Yahushua]

Any church organization that requires you to become a member of their church to be baptised is not baptising you into Christ but into their church organization. Pray to God to send you a true man of God to baptise you into Jesus Christ and your prayers will be answered as mine were. I was baptised in a hotel swimming pool by a believer with no church affiliation, God will answer all our prayers that are in accordance to His will and baptism into Jesus Christ definetly is. God will use this situation to help grow your trust in Him. praise the LORD!

Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

*sighs* You begin to sound like certain other users here, using the strongest words and terms possible when you hear something that just slightly differ from YOUR views.

My friend. What we believe is 180 degrees out. Why you can sit there and say your belief only slightly disagrees mine is astounding. There is nothing even remotely similar in our belief concerning baptism. Maybe you think it is slight, but that does not make it so.

Listen up now, if you can:

I have been listening. I have for years. The same old song and dance, And I listen every time someone discusses it to see if there is anything new. The question is, can you listen?

1. I have NOT said that baptism is about doing "our part". As you already know I am clearly opposed to such a view. I am saying that God works in baptism. Why? Because He has laid down promises in it.

you can say it all you want, that does not make it so.

If my regeneration is dependant on me going to be immersed in water, It is my work. I have to
1. Chose to do it
2. Chose to walk to the place I can be baptised (in pauls day this could have been miles upoin miles of walking) or drive there, either way, I must do something.
3. I must get into the water, then allow a man to immerse me in this water.

All these things are classified as works, as I have heard many people BOAST of being baptised in the way and what they had to do to get it done., Paul says not of works, lest any man should boast. If we can take credit for anything, it is classified as a work.

Saying you do not believe it is a work, or an act of co-operation is only lieing to yourself., it does not make it true, the facts contradict what your saying.

2. I am NOT saying that baptism "adds" anything to the finished work at the cross.

3. I am NOT saying that people necessarily gets saved just because they have been baptized.

we agree so far.

4. I AM saying that baptism has great significance and importance for those who are saved.

Now I am confused. For those who ARE SAVED? this is what I have been saying ALL ALONG. now which is it? Are we saved before baptism in water, or because of it.

5. I AM saying that water baptism is the normal practice for all who claim to be saved.

I agree 100 %

6. I AM saying that those who undervalue or minimize the importance and aim of water baptism go wrong.

No one I know of undervalues baptism. Where people go wrong is they OVERVALUE water baptism, and make it a requirement for salvation. Anyone who undervalues it, or say no one should not do it, I would wonder if they are saved at all. How can we say we have repentned and not obey the first command God has given us to do?

This is how you see it. The Bible does not describe baptism in such a way. Your issue is with the "physical" here isn't it? You think that God must always work "in the hidden" and would not think that He can use baptism and communion as work tools. Well, He does. These are not separated from the Word of God.

I still will not replace HS baptism with water, this makes god rely on us and our work. and not his. We are saved by faith, That means we are washed the moment we place our faith in Christ. God does not wait after we have faith to have the opportunity to be baptised, he does it based on his word and his work.

And therefore we need no water baptism? That's your conclusion?

I did not say we do not need it. God commanded it. God does not tell us to do something for no reason, he tells us to do it for our own benefit. And we better obey him or we will be punished. as we would if we obey any of Gods commands. But to make it essential for salvation is a lie from the pits of hell.

Yes? We are in agreement about this. You are obviously tilting against windmills. But I wonder what place water baptism has in your belief system.

When I was baptised I made an open profession fo faith, it was my witness to the world that I had repented, and been washed by God and born again based on the work of the cross. To those saved, I was seen as confessing my faith. To those not saved, it was a way to show them what God will do for them if they too repent and come to saving faith.

I have been in this kind of thinking myself. But I have reconsidered the issue and concluded that the zwinglian and related views go waaay too far in their view of baptism. Scripture is clear on that baptism is not only a mark or symbol, it does communicate the reality to us. And NOTHING in the reformed view of baptism has a SLIGHTEST trace of "earning" anything or the "dependency" you talk of. Didn't you read the quotes I posted?

Anyone who is placing their eternal life based on work of ANY kind, including the work of water baptism, is earning their salvation by doing that work.

Again water baptism is no different than any other command God has given us. The problem is people want to replace HS baptism performed by God with water baptism performed by men, or make both happen at the same time, meaning the HS is dependant on our physical act to complete his spiritual act.

yes it communicates the reality done in us, But the reality had already taken place BEFORE we came to be baptised in water.

Baptism signifies that you are buried and risen with Christ and ITS reality. Clearly this cannot be separated from water baptism (which you erroneously do). It t is all the work of God, man!

I did not separate it God did. Yes water baptism signifies somethign done in us, but again, the thing God did was done LONG before we were baptised (unless we were baptised immediately after we had faith as many did in the NT church.)
[quote[How was the faith preserved throughout all generations? Is it uninteresting to know who kept the succession alive and who did not? For those interested in the "common faith" history is important. Nothing is new under the sun.
True. But we have plenty of different interpretations of scripture. Not all are sound.[/quote]

History has a history of leading us astray.

the jews rejected Christ based in history and tradition
The roman catholics reject Christ based on history and tradition

Scripture should ALWAYS come first. relying on history has a history of leading us astray!

 

[TheAristocat]

Any church organization that requires you to become a member of their church to be baptised is not baptising you into Christ but into their church organization. Pray to God to send you a true man of God to baptise you into Jesus Christ and your prayers will be answered as mine were. I was baptised in a hotel swimming pool by a believer with no church affiliation, God will answer all our prayers that are in accordance to His will and baptism into Jesus Christ definetly is. God will use this situation to help grow your trust in Him. praise the LORD!

Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

Hey, Follower! Long time no see. Where ya been?

 

[follower_of_Yahushua]

Hey, Follower! Long time no see. Where ya been?

Just continuing to study the Word of God my dear brother, seeking to be conformed to the image of Christ by the grace of God. I'm sending you a private message so this post doesn't go off topic.

 

[xino]

here are a few sites that highlights good points

Romans 6:1-4 - “Baptized Into Christ Jesus”
BELIEVER'S BAPTISM IN THE BIBLE
Christian Baptism
Baptism of John the Baptist: Is It Valid Today?
Baptism Into Christ's Death

 

[JaumeJ]

Any church organization that requires you to become a member of their church to be baptised is not baptising you into Christ but into their church organization. Pray to God to send you a true man of God to baptise you into Jesus Christ and your prayers will be answered as mine were. I was baptised in a hotel swimming pool by a believer with no church affiliation, God will answer all our prayers that are in accordance to His will and baptism into Jesus Christ definetly is. God will use this situation to help grow your trust in Him. praise the LORD!

Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

This post is worthy of its own thread, hitting the nail right smack on the head, amen. (When I was baptized by a concerned brother in Jesus, we practically broke in to the church.)

 

[tribesman]

My friend. What we believe is 180 degrees out. Why you can sit there and say your belief only slightly disagrees mine is astounding. There is nothing even remotely similar in our belief concerning baptism. Maybe you think it is slight, but that does not make it so.

I was more speaking of your way of reacting now and then. Let us see if our beliefs on the nature of water baptism differs slighty or 180 degrees and, if so, when and where.

If my regeneration is dependant on me going to be immersed in water, It is my work. I have to
1. Chose to do it
2. Chose to walk to the place I can be baptised (in pauls day this could have been miles upoin miles of walking) or drive there, either way, I must do something.
3. I must get into the water, then allow a man to immerse me in this water.

They are not "dependent" upon it. However, you will go through water baptism because if you are saved (or a child of at least a saved parent) it is the normative thing to do.

All these things are classified as works, as I have heard many people BOAST of being baptised in the way and what they had to do to get it done., Paul says not of works, lest any man should boast. If we can take credit for anything, it is classified as a work.

I am not so sure that it is a "work" in the sense you put it. Personally I believe none of the sacraments are any "works" in that sense at all. I believe your literalism and apparent linear thinking and scripture reading takes the term "work" at too far an edge here and thus the conclusion gets oversimplified.

In greek the verb for baptism used in NT is baptizo (&#914;&#945;&#960;&#964;&#953;&#950;&#969 and it's used almost entirely in the passive voice. In english it would be translated something like &#8220;be baptized&#8221;. It is about something done to you and not something you do to yourself. That is an argument that baptism is not a work, by Pauline standard. Another argument is that the mindset at hand here does not indicate that it is a work to earn something. There is nothing meritorious about baptism at all. Those who yet think it is are off base.

When we are baptized we do not believe that the water is sufficient to earn our salvation. Baptism does not pay the price for our sins. Christ alone did that. So, we don&#8217;t pay the price for our sins and earn salvation through submitting to baptism. It is done to us in faith as a response and in recognition of salvation as God&#8217;s gift. For those who are saved it functions like a "receipt" that the price has been paid. For those who are not saved but plants it avails nothing. Do you see this?

Saying you do not believe it is a work, or an act of co-operation is only lieing to yourself., it does not make it true, the facts contradict what your saying.

See reply above.

Now I am confused. For those who ARE SAVED? this is what I have been saying ALL ALONG. now which is it? Are we saved before baptism in water, or because of it.

We are not saved because of it, however it belongs to us as saved. As for the order here, belief or repentance has to come before baptism, I do not see it as an exact. Some people may indeed experience personal faith long after their baptism, and they need not to be re-baptized after that.

No one I know of undervalues baptism. Where people go wrong is they OVERVALUE water baptism, and make it a requirement for salvation. Anyone who undervalues it, or say no one should not do it, I would wonder if they are saved at all. How can we say we have repentned and not obey the first command God has given us to do?

I would not put it as a "requirement", however I would say it is normative and normal and that it is a sin of disobedience to refuse to receive it.

I still will not replace HS baptism with water, this makes god rely on us and our work. and not his. We are saved by faith, That means we are washed the moment we place our faith in Christ. God does not wait after we have faith to have the opportunity to be baptised, he does it based on his word and his work.

As shown above water baptism is no such "work". But I do get what you are saying about Spirit baptism. However, I wish not to contradict Spirit baptism with water baptism to the nigh exclusion of the latter. They are intertwined here and the Spirit IS at work in water baptism. To believe anything else do tend to downplay the role of water baptism. I wish no-one would go there.

I did not say we do not need it. God commanded it. God does not tell us to do something for no reason, he tells us to do it for our own benefit. And we better obey him or we will be punished. as we would if we obey any of Gods commands. But to make it essential for salvation is a lie from the pits of hell.

Good that we agree that it is a commandment and that it should be obeyed by all christians. The question I have is what role do water baptism play for you more than being a commandment that is to be obeyed?

When I was baptised I made an open profession fo faith, it was my witness to the world that I had repented, and been washed by God and born again based on the work of the cross. To those saved, I was seen as confessing my faith. To those not saved, it was a way to show them what God will do for them if they too repent and come to saving faith.

OK. Do you see any other function/role of baptism beyond this?

Anyone who is placing their eternal life based on work of ANY kind, including the work of water baptism, is earning their salvation by doing that work.

Again, water baptism is not such a "work". But I agree that regardless of how one views baptism, the idea that one bases his salvation on baptism in and by itself is in grave error.

Again water baptism is no different than any other command God has given us. The problem is people want to replace HS baptism performed by God with water baptism performed by men, or make both happen at the same time, meaning the HS is dependant on our physical act to complete his spiritual act.

I guess we differ here. I do not see water baptism only as a commandment. With Calvin I say that the sacraments have the same office as the Word of God: to offer and set forth Christ to us, and in him the treasures of heavenly grace.

yes it communicates the reality done in us, But the reality had already taken place BEFORE we came to be baptised in water.

That's right, an alien righteousness wholly outside of us. However, the sacrament communicates this reality to us just as much as the preaching of the Word does so. No difference there.

I did not separate it God did. Yes water baptism signifies somethign done in us, but again, the thing God did was done LONG before we were baptised (unless we were baptised immediately after we had faith as many did in the NT church.)

Not sure what exactly you are saying here? "LONG before"? Meaning that God has to wait for a certain "time" to bestow His gifts/graces to His children?

History has a history of leading us astray.

the jews rejected Christ based in history and tradition
The roman catholics reject Christ based on history and tradition

That is one way of seeing it. I would say both failed to investigate and study what the Saints of old believed and taught. Instead they evolved their own traditions.

Scripture should ALWAYS come first. relying on history has a history of leading us astray!

Correct. But we are the ones who have the responsibility to study and research and to discern what is a tenable interpretation. There are many around who say "we believe only the Bible". We have to prove what is said, we need to make a judgment of what is right and wrong. Of course we can learn much from the fathers in this wise, who met much of the same challenges as do we.