baptism problem

[serpentslayer]

And BTW - Does anyone on here believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

It seems most believe in the baptism by water, and are paying little attention to the one and only true baptism (according to Paul and Jesus), which is by the Holy Spirit. Since there is only one baptism (Eph4), a person cannot beleive in two; therefore, if it is the water you do believe in, you will miss out on the Spirit's baptism. Further, Paul said he came not to baptize (in water), but to preach the Gospel; therefore, the Gospel has nothing to do with water baptism.

To bad such pathetic teachings exist, but the world is full of the simpleminded, who are easily lead astray.

 

[tribesman]

Those who have once been baptized with the trinitarian formula (not in a cult) should not be baptized again. This regardless of what age in which they received their baptism. No problems.

 

[MaggieMye]

Simply have a friend that is a Bible-believing, Word-practicing Christian baptize you. Nowhere in Scripture does it read that it has to be a priest or minister of any kind. YOU are a minister. Your Friend, is a minister....all of the Gospel of Christ.

Maggie

 

[xino]

@eternally-gratefull
ok I think i am starting to believe your words now.
I thought you were the only one talking about baptising with holy spirit is different to water baptism. Someone else is saying the same you said.

so i will have to look deeper into this.

can you please explain more about the differences between the baptisms?
you said there are 3.

please explain more about this holy spirit baptism.


@serpentslayer
please when you are trying to prove a point, please use scripture references or quotes so people can look into it.
you can say Paul did not come to baptise in water, but we need to know where it says so in bible.


@tribesman
but I thought baptism is after repentance?


@MaggieMye
thanks, make sense.
but now I think i need to look into this baptism and water thing. People are twisting the word.

Matthew 28:19.
Jesus said baptising them in tribe name.
but water is not even mentioned

 

[tribesman]

@tribesman
but I thought baptism is after repentance?

Some people look for enough of "faith" and "repentance" all of their lives and never get down in that water. Do not do that.

God does not have to wait for a certain "time" to bestow His gifts/graces to men. There should be no delay with getting baptized.

Children with at least a believing parent may receive baptism. If you were baptized in water as a child there is no need to receive that baptism again.

 

[xino]

Some people look for enough of "faith" and "repentance" all of their lives and never get down in that water. Do not do that.

God does not have to wait for a certain "time" to bestow His gifts/graces to men. There should be no delay with getting baptized.

Children with at least a believing parent may receive baptism. If you were baptized in water as a child there is no need to receive that baptism again.

are you sure?
but Bible doesn't teach about baby baptism aka Christening.

Being baptised by water means you want to become God's property and you are dying in death with him.
It is something you have to decide upon and acknowledge.
but if you are a baby, how would you know?

in the bible, people were baptised at later age in life and when they choose to accept our Lord Jesus.

Being a baby, you have no choice, you are being forced to be baptised without acknowledging the reason. Did the baby say he wants to belong to God?
Again baby baptism/christening is forced doctrine/forced teaching/forced action.

Also being baptised by water means immersion. Many christening is basically water sprinkling which means nothing. In the bible people were not sprinkled but immersed.


I need to sort out all these traditional things people have messed up in the bible:/

 

[tribesman]

are you sure?
but Bible doesn't teach about baby baptism aka Christening.

If you can understand that baptism has replaced circumcision as the covenant sign and seal then it does speak about it.

Being baptised by water means you want to become God's property and you are dying in death with him.
It is something you have to decide upon and acknowledge.
but if you are a baby, how would you know?

The knowledge in question is not "intellectual". John the baptist, as an infant, leaped of joy in his mother's womb when he heard Mary's greeting. Who are we to say that infants cannot believe?

in the bible, people were baptised at later age in life and when they choose to accept our Lord Jesus.

Since the practice in question was "first generation" most baptized souls were adults, but there were also "household" baptisms (see Acts 16), these included little children.

Being a baby, you have no choice, you are being forced to be baptised without acknowledging the reason. Did the baby say he wants to belong to God?
Again baby baptism/christening is forced doctrine/forced teaching/forced action.

It is not "forcing" which is the motivation in God's dealing with saving condemned sinners. The promise is unto the covenant people and their children (Acts 2:39). We cannot leave out the children, they are to be included.

Also being baptised by water means immersion. Many christening is basically water sprinkling which means nothing. In the bible people were not sprinkled but immersed.

Here I would agree. I believe in immersion rather than sprinkling and pouring. However, it is not the amount of water that counts.

I need to sort out all these traditional things people have messed up in the bible:/

OK. Understandable. But if you have never been baptized in water, then I am of the conviction that you should not delay it but have it done asap.

 

[JaumeJ]

If you can understand that baptism has replaced circumcision as the covenant sign and seal then it does speak about it.

The knowledge in question is not "intellectual". John the baptist, as an infant, leaped of joy in his mother's womb when he heard Mary's greeting. Who are we to say that infants cannot believe?

Since the practice in question was "first generation" most baptized souls were adults, but there were also "household" baptisms (see Acts 16), these included little children.

It is not "forcing" which is the motivation in God's dealing with saving condemned sinners. The promise is unto the covenant people and their children (Acts 2:39). We cannot leave out the children, they are to be included.

Here I would agree. I believe in immersion rather than sprinkling and pouring. However, it is not the amount of water that counts.

OK. Understandable. But if you have never been baptized in water, then I am of the conviction that you should not delay it but have it done asap.

Thank you for the loving explanation of "family" baptism. It never occurred to me in this light, and no one has ever explained it so well. Yes, I have read of the baptisms of entire families, but it did not settle in my heart until now. All blessings in Yeshua, amen....

 

[tribesman]

Thank you for the loving explanation of "family" baptism. It never occurred to me in this light, and no one has ever explained it so well. Yes, I have read of the baptisms of entire families, but it did not settle in my heart until now. All blessings in Yeshua, amen....

Praise YHWH!

We need to remember as well that these households followed the patriarchal head. If a family man was baptized, his wife, children and servants had to follow him. That was the custom.

Here is a key scripture of the relation between circumcision and baptism:

Col.2


[10] And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
[11] In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

The function of baptism in God's dealing:

1Pet.3.


[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
[19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
[20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
[21] The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
[22] Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

And, yes, these scriptures are referring to water baptism, which is intertwined with Spirit baptism.

 

[JaumeJ]

Praise YHWH!

We need to remember as well that these households followed the patriarchal head. If a family man was baptized, his wife, children and servants had to follow him. That was the custom.

Here is a key scripture of the relation between circumcision and baptism:
The function of baptism in God's dealing:
And, yes, these scriptures are referring to water baptism, which is intertwined with Spirit baptism.

As the rest of the Word, I have read these passages dozens of times, but never has it hit home quite so well as this time, and it is just wonderful, adding to the already wonderful understanding of the Good News of Yeshua. I was thinking, meditating on just part of the quotes you pasted here, just two or three days ago. God is so good, all of the time, amen. I am so blessed to have read these posts in this light (some may say context), thank you too.... Wow!

 

[tribesman]

As the rest of the Word, I have read these passages dozens of times, but never has it hit home quite so well as this time, and it is just wonderful, adding to the already wonderful understanding of the Good News of Yeshua. I was thinking, meditating on just part of the quotes you pasted here, just two or three days ago. God is so good, all of the time, amen. I am so blessed to have read these posts in this light (some may say context), thank you too.... Wow!

And your inputs have also served their purpose as for my digestion of the Word. And I am sure not only for me.

This is how communication here is supposed to work. To the mutual benefit of those who partake in it. May we strive to keep it that way.

 

[JaumeJ]

And your inputs have also served their purpose as for my digestion of the Word. And I am sure not only for me.

This is how communication here is supposed to work. To the mutual benefit of those who partake in it. May we strive to keep it that way.

Amen, and I pray as many as possible read this, and follow the advice...................

 

[mpaper345]

A baby has no need to be baptized,for the first thing to do is repent,which a baby cannot do,so sprinkling water on them has no affect spiritually.The Bible says the angels always behold the face of the Father concerning the little ones.

The only training you need to be baptized is to sincerely repent of your sins with godly sorrow,nothing else.All you have to do is believe that Jesus can save you spiritually and repent of your sins.

There is debate whether to use Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,in baptism,or use the name of Jesus in baptism.

I say the name of Jesus in baptism,which Jews,Samaritans,and Gentiles,were all baptized in Jesus' name in the book of Acts.There is no other name whereby we are saved but by the name of Jesus.Everything we do in word or in deed is in the name of Jesus.Luke said that baptism is to be preached in Jesus' name.

The truth is Jesus is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,which Jesus created all things,came in flesh,and dwells in the flesh.Jesus was telling the disciples that He is the true God that created all things,cam in flesh,and dwells in them,so they would focus on Him as the only God,and not make a trinity out of the titles of God,that designate the 3 relationships God has with the saints.

Father-God is the parent of the saints.
Son-God's visible relationship to the saints,which God glorified that human body,and sits on the throne of heaven which is the throne of both God and the Lamb.
Holy Ghost-God's invisible relationship to the saints.

In the Old Testament the Father told the Jews that He would reveal a new name to the Jews and speak to them,which Jesus said if you have seen Him you have seen the Father,and said I come in My Father's name.
The Son inherited the name from the Father,and the Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

Jesus is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost.

The Bible says that baptism does now save us,so it is essential to be baptized.

 

[JaumeJ]

A baby has no need to be baptized,for the first thing to do is repent,which a baby cannot do,so sprinkling water on them has no affect spiritually.The Bible says the angels always behold the face of the Father concerning the little ones.

The only training you need to be baptized is to sincerely repent of your sins with godly sorrow,nothing else.All you have to do is believe that Jesus can save you spiritually and repent of your sins.

There is debate whether to use Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,in baptism,or use the name of Jesus in baptism.

I say the name of Jesus in baptism,which Jews,Samaritans,and Gentiles,were all baptized in Jesus' name in the book of Acts.There is no other name whereby we are saved but by the name of Jesus.Everything we do in word or in deed is in the name of Jesus.Luke said that baptism is to be preached in Jesus' name.

The truth is Jesus is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,which Jesus created all things,came in flesh,and dwells in the flesh.Jesus was telling the disciples that He is the true God that created all things,cam in flesh,and dwells in them,so they would focus on Him as the only God,and not make a trinity out of the titles of God,that designate the 3 relationships God has with the saints.

Father-God is the parent of the saints.
Son-God's visible relationship to the saints,which God glorified that human body,and sits on the throne of heaven which is the throne of both God and the Lamb.
Holy Ghost-God's invisible relationship to the saints.

In the Old Testament the Father told the Jews that He would reveal a new name to the Jews and speak to them,which Jesus said if you have seen Him you have seen the Father,and said I come in My Father's name.
The Son inherited the name from the Father,and the Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

Jesus is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost.

The Bible says that baptism does now save us,so it is essential to be baptized.

Hello. In the Word entire families were baptized because the father believed. Now if a child grows up and goes away from the faith then the baptism is of no avail, however if he repents it is again valid because it occurred in a believing family. This is the way I understand it. The most important thing is the person believes the Word. Of course with this belief it is inherent the individual knows he or she is born a sinner and is repented. Obviously if the person has not reached the age of reason, God knows this. God is good all of the time, and this is simply a small facet of His goodness.

 

[oldhermit]

Have you been baptised?
a simple question.


I found out that Christiening (sprinkling water on an infant as baptism) means nothing and is not even in the bible.
It is just another human rule tradition.

Ever since I found out, I've been anxious to get baptised, now the problem is, many churches around me are turning baptism into what they want.

Originally when you repent, you get baptised straight away however churches are using baptism as an opportunity to trap people as members of their church.
This is what we call Church Denomination, meaning getting baptised with a church means you are a member of the church. Another way of saying Baptism by Membership.
To some people, this is a good thing but to others is stupid and just a trap.
Why should one be bounded by 1 church? what if that person wants to visit another church?

I want to get baptised at a usual church I started going to, they told me I must go through a training. What training!???
A friend of mine who is knowledgeable in the bible said he can find out if I can get baptised at his church, now him too is telling me his church needs to get money to perform baptism because they need to rent a pool and I need to be taught a few things before being baptised.
Now the new church I just went today, I asked the pastor if I could get baptised ASAP, he said I will have to wait till September to be baptised. Because it's much like a group baptism.


This is completely retarded and atrocious! What if Jesus comes tomorrow eh? and I'm still bloody waiting to be baptised.

All these churches and their rules!
It is not a big deal to get baptised or hard. All you need is a bathtub, water and dip the person inside. Why all the exaggeration and commotions? Why all the ceremonials man? these things are not even in the bible (unless someone can point them out to me here)


so have you been baptised recently? (not as an infant)
how was the baptism?
and how does your church baptise people?

This is oldhermit -

What would you like to know about baptism?

 

[JaumeJ]

This is oldhermit -

What would you like to know about baptism?

Yes, I believe in total immersion.........and what I posted previously. Baptism is not sprinking water, it is out with the old, in with the new in Jesus, Yeshua, amen.

 

[xino]

@tribesman

Actually Circumcision is not replaced, it is still here and performed, however we are now circumcised spiritually by the Holy Spirit
Colossians 2:11-12

John leaped out of her mother's womb? where is the bible reference?

Yes children can be baptised if they know the reason why. Acts never mentioned the age of the children so you can't really use Act as an evidence. It is a weak source/backup. Basically 20% fact and 80% opinion.

Yes but the point is, why baptise someone when they don't know what they are being baptised for?
it is like going to the street and saying "we are in the spiritual warfare, with the heavenly realms, demon realms and spirit realm. You need to be baptised to be saved".
The person says "ok cool" but doesn't even know the reason why he's being baptised. And then go on to his worldly living. This is why Jesus said, "and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded"
You think baptising a baby can obey Jesus Commands?
ok we can say when they grow up you can teach them. But wouldn't the teaching be too much? thus this is EXACTLY why people turn to Atheist. Over the years they grow reason and doubts and start questioning all their belief and just loose faith.

We HAVE to be saved by Jesus so we should be released from our slave sin.
I know that once we are born, we are in sin. But if we commit a sin then we are a slave. We need to be a slave in order for Jesus to free us.
When a baby is born into sin, and you try to save the baby, it doesn't work that way. The baby needs to grow up and live his/her life as a sinful person THEN needs to Repent to be born again and for Jesus to free.


@mpaper345
well said!
We need to repent first before Jesus can free us from our slave.
Babies cannot speak or repent, so how can Jesus free them?

And you bring a big point!
Jesus did tell us and the Apostles to baptism in the Trinity name, but Paul and others said they baptise in Jesus name,
But remember, Paul and others baptise in Jesus name into the water.
But Jesus didn't say anything about water baptism, he said baptism in the trinity name.

This is what Eternally-Gratefull was trying to tell me, that there are different ways of baptism.
I was asking how can one be baptised by Holy Spirit. I think it is by prayer.


@oldhermit
yes please...what is your insight on it?

 

[starfield]

A baptism training class is not compulsory but it’s a good idea to share with your pastor or whoever is going to baptize you your testimony of salvation.
Being baptized is a demonstration of obedience to God but there are people who did not have the opportunity to be baptized before they died; it doesn’t mean they are going to hell.
The location is not a big deal and there is no need for an elaborate ceremony. Some people get baptized in a river or swimming pool.
Baptism should be conducted by total immersion in water (Acts 8:39) in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It symbolizes being dead to sin and resurrected into the newness of life (Romans 6:4-7).

 

[oldhermit]

@tribesman

Actually Circumcision is not replaced, it is still here and performed, however we are now circumcised spiritually by the Holy Spirit
Colossians 2:11-12

John leaped out of her mother's womb? where is the bible reference?

Yes children can be baptised if they know the reason why. Acts never mentioned the age of the children so you can't really use Act as an evidence. It is a weak source/backup. Basically 20% fact and 80% opinion.

Yes but the point is, why baptise someone when they don't know what they are being baptised for?
it is like going to the street and saying "we are in the spiritual warfare, with the heavenly realms, demon realms and spirit realm. You need to be baptised to be saved".
The person says "ok cool" but doesn't even know the reason why he's being baptised. And then go on to his worldly living. This is why Jesus said, "and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded"
You think baptising a baby can obey Jesus Commands?
ok we can say when they grow up you can teach them. But wouldn't the teaching be too much? thus this is EXACTLY why people turn to Atheist. Over the years they grow reason and doubts and start questioning all their belief and just loose faith.

We HAVE to be saved by Jesus so we should be released from our slave sin.
I know that once we are born, we are in sin. But if we commit a sin then we are a slave. We need to be a slave in order for Jesus to free us.
When a baby is born into sin, and you try to save the baby, it doesn't work that way. The baby needs to grow up and live his/her life as a sinful person THEN needs to Repent to be born again and for Jesus to free.


@mpaper345
well said!
We need to repent first before Jesus can free us from our slave.
Babies cannot speak or repent, so how can Jesus free them?

And you bring a big point!
Jesus did tell us and the Apostles to baptism in the Trinity name, but Paul and others said they baptise in Jesus name,
But remember, Paul and others baptise in Jesus name into the water.
But Jesus didn't say anything about water baptism, he said baptism in the trinity name.

This is what Eternally-Gratefull was trying to tell me, that there are different ways of baptism.
I was asking how can one be baptised by Holy Spirit. I think it is by prayer.


@oldhermit
yes please...what is your insight on it?

It may help to understand exactly what is ment by the term "εἰς τὸ ὄνομα" - "into the name of." In the clasical style of the first century language the phraise was often used as a leagal term. This expression is found among ancient legal doccuments that recorded the transfer of property. If one purchased a section of land or a dwelling for example, a title transfer would be drawn up to show that this property was now εἰς τὸ ὄνομα - in the name of - the new owner. When Jesus commanded his deciples to preach the gospel to every creature and baptize them εἰς τὸ ὄνομα the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, what he is commanding them to do is to baptize them into the posession of God. Chriatians are the objects of a property transfer - "out of the kingdom of darkness and into his marvolous light." This same language is used in Acts 2:38 Peter commanted those present to be baptized ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι - into the name of - thus into the posession if Jesus Christ. This was for a two-fold purpose
1. For the removal of sin - Spiritual circumcision, Colossians 2:9-13.
2. To receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. He is the seal of the transfer of property, Ephesians 4:30, 1Corinthians 6:19-20. He is the seal of ownership to show that we have been bought with a price.

 

[SantoSubito]

@tribesman

Actually Circumcision is not replaced, it is still here and performed, however we are now circumcised spiritually by the Holy Spirit
Colossians 2:11-12

Yes it is still performed, but it is no longer used covenantly (is that a word?). Circumcision today is done for aesthetic or hygiene reasons. Now as tribesman pointed out earlier baptism has replaced circumcision as the sign of the covenant between God and His people.

John leaped out of her mother's womb? where is the bible reference?

Luke 1:41-44: 41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth (John's mother) heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.

The bold faced portion was added by me.

Yes children can be baptised if they know the reason why. Acts never mentioned the age of the children so you can't really use Act as an evidence. It is a weak source/backup. Basically 20% fact and 80% opinion.

It is true that Acts never mentions the age of the children, but ancient families often had infants in the home. It is, in fact, more unreasonable to assume that the households had no infants

Yes but the point is, why baptise someone when they don't know what they are being baptised for?

Because the Sacrament makes the person a part of the Body, imparts grace, and marks their souls.

it is like going to the street and saying "we are in the spiritual warfare, with the heavenly realms, demon realms and spirit realm. You need to be baptised to be saved".
The person says "ok cool" but doesn't even know the reason why he's being baptised. And then go on to his worldly living.

A person can squander their baptismal gift through willful sin. Catechisis is a not a pre-requisite to baptism, and the grace imparted in not conditional on our understanding. Also it's highly unlikely any grown adult would jump into baptism without the faintest idea of what he's getting into.

This is why Jesus said, "and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded"
You think baptising a baby can obey Jesus Commands?

Actually yes. The child should be brought up in the Faith and that is the responsibility of their parents. Baptism does not suddenly impart perfect moral rectitude unto a person.

ok we can say when they grow up you can teach them. But wouldn't the teaching be too much? thus this is EXACTLY why people turn to Atheist.

So your saying because we teach them the Faith it turns them Atheist? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Over the years they grow reason and doubts and start questioning all their belief and just loose faith.

Doubt comes to us all at one time or another, but how you can link infant baptism and catechisis to Atheism is beyond me.

We HAVE to be saved by Jesus so we should be released from our slave sin.
I know that once we are born, we are in sin. But if we commit a sin then we are a slave. We need to be a slave in order for Jesus to free us.

We're a slave to sin from the moment of conception, because every soul bears the guilt of Adam and Eve (Original Sin).

When a baby is born into sin, and you try to save the baby, it doesn't work that way. The baby needs to grow up and live his/her life as a sinful person THEN needs to Repent to be born again and for Jesus to free.

That's where me and tribesman would probably differ. Because that makes God's grace and power conditional upon our repentance. To both of us (correct me if I'm wrong here tribesman) there need not be a single moment where we "Accepted Christ as our personal Lord and Saviour". Some of us grew up in faith and have spent our childhoods being the best Christians we can.