Pre-Trib Rapture=Mark of the beast (for some), Naiveness=Sleep and unpreparedness

[peterT]

The woman is Isreal. Who gave birth to Christ. Christ gave birth to the church, The church did not give birth to Christ.






Could be the church, Could just be believers who were saved AFTER the start of the tribulation period. Your making many assumptions here,

By the way, you do understand that the word "church" in the NT speaks of any gathering, the word is not even specific to Christians, but many secular organisation which meets in an assembly? even the assembly of Isreal in the OT would have been called an ekkl;esia?



12000 from each tribe of Isreal. This is Isreal. NOT THE CHURCH.




They were all over the OT too, yet not called the church, but called the woman, or Isreal. Try separating the two.

Even if the church was raptured at the beginning or middle of the age, those saved after would still be called an ekklesia would they not? These are the ekklesia of the nation of Isreal, with a few beliving gentiles (the womans offspring) who are saved during this time. It does not prove at one time the body of Christ who were alive and on earth were not "taken up to meet Christ"

Try again??

The 144000 are Christian, they follow the lamb were ever he goes, thus they are Christian and of the church of God.

The two end time prophets are Christian, whether they are Old Testament prophets or Jews by birth, that go forth in the spirit and power of Elias or whatever, they are Christians. They don’t preach Judaism and that Jesus is not the son of God, and that the NT are words of the flesh, they would preach Jesus and repentance of sin and the resurrection, and Jesus coming again that will rule with a rod of iron.
Thus they are Christians and of the church of God.

 

[peterT]

When does this occur? If it happens at the last trumpet in Revelation 11 that's basically 5 years in to the 7 year trib. The rider on the red horse doesn't go out until 3 1/2 year into the trib "MIDWAY" so the 7th trumpet in somewhere around 5 years. So why would he rapture then? If the Lord is going to remove believers why would he want to wait 5 years in? If he is going to remove his fellow believers then why wouldn't he do it at the beginning? If it doesn't happen at the beginning or at the last trumpet in Rev. 11 then it never happens. Because you have the 1000 year kingdom and he is not going to do it then. Then after the 1000 year kingdom you have the great white throne judgment and then the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to earth. So everyone that was in heaven will be back on earth. No need to rapture then.

Also it was pointed out if the church was still here then you wouldn't need the two witnesses or the 144,000 jews preaching the coming 1000 year kingdom.

The church after Rev. 4 come up here is not mention again until Rev. 19;
7 Let us be glad and rejoice,
and let us give honor to him.
For the time has come for the wedding feast of the Lamb,
and his bride has prepared herself.
8 She has been given the finest of pure white linen to wear.”
For the fine linen represents the good deeds of God’s holy people.
9 And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding feast of the Lamb.” And he added, “These are true words that come from God.”

What 7 year tribulation? it’s a 3 ½ years of great tribulation Jesus said so

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand.
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

[moment_of_faith]

The question is are the jews christian now?

 

[peterT]

The question is are the jews christian now?

if they are not ashamed of his word and Jesus is the word, and confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

 

[moment_of_faith]

So jews are not christians. They don't accept Jesus as their lord and savior. That's why they are called Jews. So Jesus is going to open 144,000 Jews eye that he is GOD This is the time of Jacobs trouble

 

[LawofLove]

Yes I think so. That reminds me of this verse.

Daniel 11:34Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall CLEAVE to them with flatteries.

The weaker Christian well come to us for help when the tribulation starts.

But the stronger pre-tribulation believing Christian will just have a change of heart, for he is like Tomas he will have to see before he believes.

It reminds me of the ten virgins
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

We have to have oil for now and the tribulation

 

[peterT]

So jews are not christians. They don't accept Jesus as their lord and savior. That's why they are called Jews. So Jesus is going to open 144,000 Jews eye that he is GOD This is the time of Jacobs trouble

2:28 For he is NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 2:29 But he IS a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

We are washed whiter than snow

Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth,

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And as James said when speaking to the church

James 1:1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

We are grafted into Jesus the word and to the 12 tribes

Thus any one of you could be the 144000

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you never heard of the rapture though you would assume it was talking about the day of Judgement. Why can't we just agree that this passage is talking about the one thing ALL Christians believe in -the final judgement, and not invent something new -the rapture.

1. It is not the day of judgment, People have put a religious term on the word, and forgot what it really means. The word rapture comes from a latin word which means to be caught up. Scripture states that there will come a day when we will be CAUGHT UP, and meet our savior in the clouds. Which would not be the second advent, Because the second advent, The lord does not "catch is up to meet him in the clouds, He comes to earth, and destroys the man of sin, and his armies,
2. This is NOT the day of judgment either, not sure where you get this.

You seem to be saying that the 144,000 are not the "church" because they are Jews. Are you saying that gentiles who believe on Christ are in a different group then Jews who believe on Christ??? This is the kind of thing Paul strictly preached against.

Quite the opposite. The church is ALL people, there are no jew or gentile. The 144000 are stricly Isreal, Just as prophesied in the OT, when the return of the nation of Israel is predicted, and will come true. Paul even talks of a day when the time of the gentiles will be complete. and all Isreal will be saved, these 14400 are just the beginning. Once again, Isreal will be telling the world (gentiles) about Christ, what do you think these 144000 will do. And why do they have to do it if the church is still around.

You have two major problems,

1. The church is raptured, thus no one on earth is saved, so God sends the witnesses and 144000 to respread the gospel.

2. The church is so corrupt and destroyed, there is no one left alive who is truly following God.

either way, the church as we know it is gone.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The 144000 are Christian, they follow the lamb were ever he goes, thus they are Christian and of the church of God. The two end time prophets are Christian, whether they are Old Testament prophets or Jews by birth, that go forth in the spirit and power of Elias or whatever, they are Christians.

Yes, but this does not take away from the fact they are from the children of Isreal. And not a gentile. What happen to all the gentile churches around the world today? why is God going back to use the children of Isreal to spread the gospel? Has the gentile church crashed and burned, or has it (and the small amount of isreal who where with them, or the remnant) been taken away? One of the other happened, this is fact.

They don’t preach Judaism and that Jesus is not the son of God, and that the NT are words of the flesh, they would preach Jesus and repentance of sin and the resurrection, and Jesus coming again that will rule with a rod of iron.

Thus they are Christians and of the church of God.

I never said they would teach Judaism, they would not, These are isreal being restored as God prophesied many areas of scripture they would. Get judaism out of your mind. These are not jews teaching their lie, these are jews who have finally found her messiah, and proclaim him to the world. because the gentile church has either been taken out, or collapsed to nothingness.

 

[peterT]

[/font][/color][/size]Yes, but this does not take away from the fact they are from the children of Isreal. And not a gentile. What happen to all the gentile churches around the world today? why is God going back to use the children of Isreal to spread the gospel? Has the gentile church crashed and burned, or has it (and the small amount of isreal who where with them, or the remnant) been taken away? One of the other happened, this is fact.



I never said they would teach Judaism, they would not, These are isreal being restored as God prophesied many areas of scripture they would. Get judaism out of your mind. These are not jews teaching their lie, these are jews who have finally found her messiah, and proclaim him to the world. because the gentile church has either been taken out, or collapsed to nothingness.

Now that sounds better. The Jews need to be saved too.

But you are still missing the fact that we Christians are also chaste virgin in Christ and are washed whiter than snow, and are of the children of Abraham and are of the same body.

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.
2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

And We are grafted into Jesus the word and to the 12 tribes.
And as James said when speaking to the church

James 1:1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Thus making it possible for some of us christens to be of the 144000 too

2:28 For he is NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 2:29 But he IS a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Now that sounds better. The Jews need to be saved too.

But you are still missing the fact that we Christians are also chaste virgin in Christ and are washed whiter than snow, and are of the children of Abraham and are of the same body.

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

I have never doubted or argued against this.

But the OT prophets did not promise that any Gentile, saved or not, would be returned to their land after sever persecution and the time of Jacob's trouble (also known as the time of Great tribulation) That they would be brought from the lands they were scattered because of their sin, And the nations who mistreated her punished for their mistreatment of her. This was only promised to the natural children of Isreal.

I am a Christian, that makes me niether jewish or gentile in the eyes of God. But when John speaks of different tribes, and people being saved in those tribes, he is not speaking of ANY GENTILE

Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.
2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

We are fellow heirs. Of eternal life, based because of one jew, whose name was Christ. We are not Isreal, nor do we partake in their specific promises, Canaan has never been promised to us, saved or unsaved, it was only promised to the natural children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,

And We are grafted into Jesus the word and to the 12 tribes.
And as James said when speaking to the church

James 1:1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Um, Although what James wrote is pertinent to us, It was not written to us, It was written to the saved children of Isreal. Much Like the book of Hebrews. Remember, they were the first. And the apostles had a heart for them, being they were from the same nation.

Thus making it possible for some of us christens to be of the 144000 too

Negative, If the one who gave john the prophesy was speaking about the church as a whole, he would not have classified the 12 children of Isreal. If anything, We are not part of the 12 tribes, we are a part of one, the tribe of Judah, who's savior we came from.

2:28 For he is NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 2:29 But he IS a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

This was written to jews who though being jewsih got them an automatic in. No gentile would believe this, so it is not directed towards us.

If the woman who is persecuted in revelations is the church, who is her offspring? Aqgain, you need to read, the woman gave birth to Christ, thus it is not the church, Christ birthed the church, thus the church would be the ofspring of the woman. The woman would Be Isreal. Now tell me, why would God be protecting unbelieving Isreal in this age?

All your examples ignore OT prophesy, Ignore what Paul said in romans 11. And ignore the facts of what is going to happen.

 

[peterT]

your correct. those who endure to the end are saved physically and enter the kingdom with him after he destroys all evil and all the nations arrayed against him in the great battle.

Yet that is when he returns (feet on ground)

so when would the "meet him the clouds" happen? before or after the 2nd coming of Christ?

Seems to be something wrong with this statement.

Why would you need to be saved in the flesh to enter the kingdom of heaven?

When in the end you put of incorruption and are raised, the dead first then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, so why would you need to be saved in the flesh?

I can see too different interpretations, but not that one.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. If you don’t take the mark of the beast and endure unto the end, the same shall be saved Jesus speaking to the believers.

Unless Jesus was talking about the ungodly (which I don’t think so)13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved in the flesh and we rule over them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Seems to be something wrong with this statement.

Why would you need to be saved in the flesh to enter the kingdom of heaven?

who said anything about the kingdom of heaven? the kingdom of heaven is now. Christ kingdom and rule on earth is not till much later, when satan is bound.

Jesus said there will be time of great tribulation. such as never been seen before or after. this time has not come. He then said many things would happen. then he said whoever endures until the end (his return) will be saved. don;t try to twist what Jesus said

When in the end you put of incorruption and are raised, the dead first then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, so why would you need to be saved in the flesh?

He is NOT TALKING SPIRITUAL LIFE, he is talking surviving physically this great persecution and tribulation in the time of Gods wrath. He is giving people in this age hope. if you Endure all this stuff until the return of Christ, you will be saved.

I can see too different interpretations, but not that one.

thats fine, It does not mean it is not there. Many people could not see Christ as the messiah, But he was all the same.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. If you don’t take the mark of the beast and endure unto the end, the same shall be saved Jesus speaking to the believers.

Unless Jesus was talking about the ungodly (which I don’t think so)13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved in the flesh and we rule over them.

The ungodly are destroyed by Christ at his return. As scripture says, the blood and the bodies will be so great it will take a year (or years?) to clean them up. and the birds will be full by eating the flesh of the dead in this great battle.

 

[peterT]

I have never doubted or argued against this.

But the OT prophets did not promise that any Gentile, saved or not, would be returned to their land after sever persecution and the time of Jacob's trouble (also known as the time of Great tribulation) That they would be brought from the lands they were scattered because of their sin, And the nations who mistreated her punished for their mistreatment of her. This was only promised to the natural children of Isreal.

I am a Christian, that makes me niether jewish or gentile in the eyes of God. But when John speaks of different tribes, and people being saved in those tribes, he is not speaking of ANY GENTILE




We are fellow heirs. Of eternal life, based because of one jew, whose name was Christ. We are not Isreal, nor do we partake in their specific promises, Canaan has never been promised to us, saved or unsaved, it was only promised to the natural children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,



Um, Although what James wrote is pertinent to us, It was not written to us, It was written to the saved children of Isreal. Much Like the book of Hebrews. Remember, they were the first. And the apostles had a heart for them, being they were from the same nation.



Negative, If the one who gave john the prophesy was speaking about the church as a whole, he would not have classified the 12 children of Isreal. If anything, We are not part of the 12 tribes, we are a part of one, the tribe of Judah, who's savior we came from.


This was written to jews who though being jewsih got them an automatic in. No gentile would believe this, so it is not directed towards us.

If the woman who is persecuted in revelations is the church, who is her offspring? Aqgain, you need to read, the woman gave birth to Christ, thus it is not the church, Christ birthed the church, thus the church would be the ofspring of the woman. The woman would Be Isreal. Now tell me, why would God be protecting unbelieving Isreal in this age?

All your examples ignore OT prophesy, Ignore what Paul said in romans 11. And ignore the facts of what is going to happen.

If the woman is Israel then it is a saved Israel in Christ, for the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience. God doesn’t protect the children of disobedience.

The children of Abraham are before the 12 tribes and we Christians are the children of Abraham and of the seed of Abraham by are faith.

The bible is speaking to all of us that believe we are all grafted into Jesus the word

 

[peterT]

who said anything about the kingdom of heaven? the kingdom of heaven is now. Christ kingdom and rule on earth is not till much later, when satan is bound.

Jesus said there will be time of great tribulation. such as never been seen before or after. this time has not come. He then said many things would happen. then he said whoever endures until the end (his return) will be saved. don;t try to twist what Jesus said

He is NOT TALKING SPIRITUAL LIFE, he is talking surviving physically this great persecution and tribulation in the time of Gods wrath. He is giving people in this age hope. if you Endure all this stuff until the return of Christ, you will be saved.

thats fine, It does not mean it is not there. Many people could not see Christ as the messiah, But he was all the same.

The ungodly are destroyed by Christ at his return. As scripture says, the blood and the bodies will be so great it will take a year (or years?) to clean them up. and the birds will be full by eating the flesh of the dead in this great battle.

Not twisting anything it sounds more like you are trying to twist it.

Why would you need to be saved in the flesh to put on incorruption?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If the woman is Israel then it is a saved Israel in Christ, for the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience. God doesn’t protect the children of disobedience.

Nope. God promised to preserve a remnant. He also promised to restore them. God uses this "time of Jacobs troube" to cause them to seek him and bring them back to him. Just like he uses tribulation to bring many of us to Christ, or bring those of us who have fallen back to him.

Your ignoring the OT prophesies my friend.

The children of Abraham are before the 12 tribes and we Christians are the children of Abraham and of the seed of Abraham by are faith.

Um a christian is a christian, he is neither jew or gentile, according to the promise. 12 tribes refers to the blooodline of the 12 children of Isreal. Stop trying to twist it to mean something else.

The bible is speaking to all of us that believe we are all grafted into Jesus the word

No it is not. it is speaking of a specific time period, which at this time is yet future in nature.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not twisting anything it sounds more like you are trying to twist it.

Why would you need to be saved in the flesh to put on incorruption?

Incoruption? where does it say incoruption in that passage? Your still twisting

Is God going to allow all flesh to die? Why do you think it is he promised to return because all flesh would die if he did not. but for the sake of the elect (who are still alive on earth) he will return. Those are the ones he is refering to when he says endure to the end. The elect in that time period.

 

[peterT]

Nope. God promised to preserve a remnant. He also promised to restore them. God uses this "time of Jacobs troube" to cause them to seek him and bring them back to him. Just like he uses tribulation to bring many of us to Christ, or bring those of us who have fallen back to him.

Your ignoring the OT prophesies my friend.



Um a christian is a christian, he is neither jew or gentile, according to the promise. 12 tribes refers to the blooodline of the 12 children of Isreal. Stop trying to twist it to mean something else.



No it is not. it is speaking of a specific time period, which at this time is yet future in nature.

Um, Although what James wrote is pertinent to us, It was not written to us, It was written to the saved children of Isreal. Much Like the book of Hebrews. Remember, they were the first. And the apostles had a heart for them, being they were from the same nation.

He has made one blood all nations of men, that which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit


You are trying to segregate Jewish Christians from non-Jewish Christians, and not just segregating them, but you are also segregating the word which is Jesus, saying that the bible is speaking to some and not to others, and others and not to some.

When we all drink the same spiritual drink, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
And by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles.

Your interpretation of the woman must be wrong somehow. If you are to separate the woman and the seed then you have to keep that in mind when interpretation Rv12.


As for twisting scripture I don’t think so, and if I am I am not doing it on purpose.

If I am ignoring the OT prophesy’s then you are ignoring the NT prophesy’s

1Cor 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

1Cor12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[peterT]

Incoruption? where does it say incoruption in that passage? Your still twisting

Is God going to allow all flesh to die? Why do you think it is he promised to return because all flesh would die if he did not. but for the sake of the elect (who are still alive on earth) he will return. Those are the ones he is refering to when he says endure to the end. The elect in that time period.

Don’t know what you mean exactly


50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

At that end when jesus comes at the last trumpet, corruptible must put on incorruption.

So I am still asking Why would you need to be saved to the end in the flesh to put on incorruption?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He has made one blood all nations of men, that which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit


You are trying to segregate Jewish Christians from non-Jewish Christians, and not just segregating them, but you are also segregating the word which is Jesus, saying that the bible is speaking to some and not to others, and others and not to some.

When we all drink the same spiritual drink, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
And by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles.

Your interpretation of the woman must be wrong somehow. If you are to separate the woman and the seed then you have to keep that in mind when interpretation Rv12.


As for twisting scripture I don’t think so, and if I am I am not doing it on purpose.

If I am ignoring the OT prophesy’s then you are ignoring the NT prophesy’s

1Cor 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

1Cor12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

there is no use in continuing, You ignore half the OT prophesie which says God will restor the NATION of Isreal (not saved people) when they repent and return to him.

You ignore paul who says when the time of the gentile is complete. ALL Isreal will be saved, but at this time, even though THEY (Isreal) are our enemie because of the gospels sake, when the time of th egentiles has been fulfilled, the blindness will be removed.

This is not a salvation issue at all. It is what will happen on earth at a specific time period in Gods plan, Your trying to turn prophesy which is specific to a nation group, and make it fulfilled in a group which is not even that nation.