Come Let Us Reason Together

[Enow]

I'm sorry for all the confusion, but I have spent the last three weeks defending myself against charges that I am not a member of the Body of Christ for failing to use the formal word "repentance" (your statement as I read you)

I hope I was not conveying that you were not a believer in Jesus Christ nor implying that you were not of the body of Christ.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I was just agreeing with you on the need for clarity on the use of the word "repentance" at salvation.

and then for failing to insist that salvation is not complete until all sin is dealt with (as we have seen here in this thread). To my mind, they are all "right," each in their own perspective, but then again so am I correct from mine.

The only way we can receive the promise of the Holy Spirit at our salvation is by the remission of sin which is done by believing in Jesus Christ.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

So we are saved simply by believing in Jesus Christ. Look at the faith in Him below.

Colosians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

You are absolutely right. In a more proper sense, everyone is on a walk with the Lord.

He is with us always since we are saved, but there is that call of discipleship which is not for salvation but to be abiding in Him by walking in the light.

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1 John 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Even the most rebellious satanist is breathing and was knitted in his mother's womb by God, same as you or I, so he has something of the Lord in him.

Romans 8: 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Even the Christian most advanced with the Lord, still has sin in His life, and still has more the Lord wants to do through him, another glory in him that is not yet unfolded. Exactly where a person is when we meet him, isn't always ours to know, but the method is the same - affirm that there is another step for him to take to get closer to God, and help him see Jesus is there just ahead of him.

He is in us so we can run that race with Him.

John 1 is pretty clear, nothing has ever been made without Jesus, so Jesus is always there, in each step.

That is our faith, but sometimes we say things that do not reflect that and so the prunings comes.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Alot of wayward believers will call for the Holy Spirit to come and fall on them to bring signs and lying wonders even though they acknowledge that He is in them. This is one example of why we need the Lord's help to be clear in our witness of the Son so that we can test the spirits to know they are not of Him. The fact that these wayward believers are feeling thse seducing spirits coming over them when the Holy Spirit was already in them is proof that what is coming over them again and again and again is NOT the Holy Spirit.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world....4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

"Saved" is an unfolding term. Each uses it as his church or background has taught him. And if we scream too loudly to each other that we are wrong, the world gets very alienated by our witness.

"Saved" is not an unfolding term, but you are right when another church make void the effect of the cross by unfolding that term as if a believer is not saved yet.

Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

Hebrews 4:1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world....9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Only with Christ in us and thus having been saved, can we ever have the hope and power to follow Him by faith in the Son of God as our Good Shepherd in enabling us to continue in His words to be His disciple.

That means a believer that is not His disciple and have not departed from inqiuity is still His, but he will be weeping and gnashing his teeth for giving up his inheritance in the Kingdom of God for wild living.

In the end, the prodigal son will find that he is still son, but the loyal elder son has all that the Father has which is highly indicative that the prodigal son does not. So just as Esau wept bitterly for giving up his birthright for a meal, so will the disciple be having full joy of their eternal inheritance in Heaven, thanks to Jesus Christ since the rewards of the crowns are really His crowning achievements in us.

Psalm 100:3 Know ye that the Lord he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

 

[zone]

What is a broken heart and contrite spirit? Did you give it to yourself? Did you manufacture it from your own will?

No one can make us do anything we don't want to do... LOL

"No one can make us do anything we don't want to do... LOL"



oh they want to suffer in agonizomai and despair of their own free will. they planned to.

they just said one day "eh...been there done that with sin - boring..." and skip to the Cross and think..."hmmm..ya...sounds okay...i agree....so, i suppose i'll just go off now and summon up a crushed and contrite spirit"

you nailed it Gramps.
again.
love z.

(ps: your puppy just ate my sweet yam pie....you comin' over for him, or should i just let him hang with Roger?)

 

[zone]

The vast majority on the Christian Chat Bible Forums hold the same view I fear.

Skinski
have you been born from above?

 

[Skinski7]

James wasn't addressing the faith in Jesus Christ in regards to our salvation. James was addressing the misuse of verbalizing faith in God's Providence to the poor by getting out of helping the poor that may be perishing from the elements and from starvation just so they would not have to give anything from the bounty God has provided tothe church that day.

James was already addressing this abuse earlier in the chapter of the church disrespecting the poor.

James 2:1My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. 2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? 6But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

James went further in showing how they were despising the poor. Context is everything in getting the message James was conveying here.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Note the use of the term "profit". In context, James is referring about what profits the poor in saving the poor if the church that verbalized the departing benediction of faith in His Providence to the poor will not lead by example to the poor of the church's faith in His Providence by meeting their needs today.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

So in other words, they were not righteous nor justified before God for verbalizing faith in His Providence to the poor when the church was failing to lead by example of that faith in His Providence because they were despising the poor.

Note how James referenced Abraham of that particular event of offering Isaac upon the altar by faith. By faith in what? In His Providence to provide. Every Jew knows that is what that moment in the Bible was all about because of how Abraham named that place that testified of that event. Note what Abraham said to Isaac before that offering.

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Now note how Abraham named the place testifying to his faith in how God provides.

Genesis 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

Believers can apply faith in God will heal them, and so it is this misapplication of applying faith in His Providence that James was addressing when the church was not leading by example because they were despising the poor by verbalizing faith in His Providence to get out of helping the poor.

It is that verbalization of faith in His Providence to the poor that will not profit the poor nor save the poor when in the eyes of the poor, the church was not leading by example of that faith in His Providence by meeting their immediate needs today and thereby trusting God tomorrow for the needs of the church.

James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So as Rahab had shown her belief in the God of Israelites by helping the two messengers escape to provide for her escape, so should the church that believes in His Providence should lead by example that He will provide for the church.

It was never about faith in Jesus Christ in regards to a believer's salvation, but the abuse of applying faith in His Providence to the poor as if by saying "be warmed & be filled" to the poor, will mean the church actually believe God will do it for the poor, and yet the church is unwilling to despense from the bounty collected to meet the immediate needs of the poor that day to really believe in His Providence for the church tomorrow.

So it was the church's sinful use of faith in His Providence that was not going to profit the poor nor save the poor. The church was not justified nor righteous for doing that. It does not mean the church was not saved, but that the church was not justified nor righteous for using faith in His Providence in that manner just to get out of helping the poor because they were despising the poor.

I completely agree with what you have written as far as the context that James clearly wrote in the context of some of those in the church who were relying on the providence of God while neglecting what James calls the pure religion which is undefiled before God. These people had a "God will take care of it" attitude.

Yet the faith that James speaks of cannot be isolated from the work of faith that Paul describes, nor can it be disconnected faith as it relates to salvation...

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Paul teaches that it is neither circumcision that avails anything not uncircumcision but rather it is a faith that works by love (Gal 5:6). This is because it is love that fulfills the law.

Notice what Paul writes here...

Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Abraham was justified by faith but what sort of faith was it? It was the faith which WORKED because Romans 4:12 speaks of the STEPS which Abraham walked in and Romans 4:11 confirms that it is this sort of faith that God reckons us justified or righteous by.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

This kind of faith that Paul is speaking of is the faith that ESTABLISHES THE LAW IN THE HEART (Rom 3:31) and it is by this faith that we FULFILL the righteousness of the law (Rom 8:4).

Clearly James is speaking of the same thing...

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: [Love fulfills the law (Gal 5:14), Faith works by love (Gal 5:6), Faith establishes the law in the heart (Rom 3:31), We fulfill the righteousness of the law when we walk after the Spirit by faith (Rom 8:4), hence our righteousness exceeds that of the Scribes and Pharisees who only had an "outward" form of righteousness yet did not have love.]
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.[If a Christian has respect of persons and treats people according to their station in life as some of these people were doing by affording them better treatment (Jam 2:1-5)
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. [Here James relates such conduct as no different than a transgressor of the law who keeps one point yet violates another. He is teaching that a Christian cannot be loving in one area and not loving in another (in the context of being a respector of persons.]
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Jas 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. [Jesus taught a parable of a servant who had a debt who was granted mercy and forgiven a debt by his master, yet when the master found out that that servant did not have mercy on his own servant he forfeited what he had and his own debt was reinstated and he was cast into prison (see Matt 18:23-25 below).]
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? [Here James SPECIFICALLY speaks of a SAVING FAITH. A faith that does not "work by love," does not "establish the law in the heart," is "not manifested outwardly by righteous conduct" is a dead faith.]


Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

The pure in heart will see God.

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.


Here is your error. You state this...

James wasn't addressing the faith in Jesus Christ in regards to our salvation.

and this...

It was never about faith in Jesus Christ in regards to a believer's salvation, but the abuse of applying faith in His Providence to the poor as if by saying "be warmed & be filled" to the poor, will mean the church actually believe God will do it for the poor, and yet the church is unwilling to despense from the bounty collected to meet the immediate needs of the poor that day to really believe in His Providence for the church tomorrow.

You are clearly viewing "salvation" as a "forensic or provisional state" apart from an actual state of existence. You have disconnected salvation from the manifest deeds done in the body. You cannot do that. If someone is truly saved then they are not in bondage to sin and their deeds will prove that fact because they no longer yield to fleshly desire in disobedience to God.

You say this...

That repentance is referring to repenting from unbelief since believing has always been the condition for which a sinner is saved by grace in Jesus Christ.

Belief is not simply a mental acknowledgment of a fact or a simple trust in something. Even the devils believe (Jam 2:19) but a faith that is not outwardly manifested through deeds is dead. When the Bible speaks of "belief" it is in the context of aligning ourselves with the truth to the best of our knowledge. It is the implanted word which saves the soul (Jam 1:21) but we have to receive it and one cannot receive it unless they stop rejecting it. This is why James writes that one must "lay aside ALL filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness" and then "receive with meekness the implanted word." It is via the process of repentance where this happens.

Thus when you say something like this...

When a sinner is asked to repent from his sins, that will run the risk of them missing the hope in Jesus Christ when placing that emphasis on them to do it. Remember: a sinner is a slave to sin and sin is dominating his life. He is being honest in not seeing it in himself to turn from his sins, and so the emphasis on the sinner to repent from all of his sins is going to lead the sinner away from Him.

You have completely thrown out the whole purpose of repentance. God calls all men to repentance because it is through repentance that the grain of wheat dies. The grain of wheat must die to bear fruit. If a sinner does not forsake their rebellion to God by dying to their "self-willed rebellion" once and for all they simply cannot "receive Jesus." The old man must die and that is why the Bible teaches that we are to DIE WITH CHRIST.

Repentance IS NOT simply believing in Jesus and then waiting on God to clean you up. That is error.

It is true that a sinner is a slave to sin like you say but that bondage is broken through godly sorrow and repentance where those who are to be Christ's CRUCIFY THEIR FLESH WITH THE PASSIONS AND DESIRES (Gal 5:24).

Paul describes how it works again here...

Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. [The law cannot save.]
Gal 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. [Those who teach that salvation is by the law are in error (for it cleans only the outside of the cup without addressing the heart.]
Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. [Right here is the key, we are crucified with Christ, the WORLD becomes crucified to us]

1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Compare what Paul is writing in Galatians above with what John wrote in 1Jn 2:15-17. It is a NEW CREATURE that we become in Christ when we DIE WITH HIM and are then RAISED UP WITH HIM. It is through this process that we are delivered from the corruption that is in the world through lust that we can then be partakers in the divine nature (2Pet 1:3-4).

Can you see the error? When you preach the Gospel it appears you do not preach the aspect of the cross where our old man is crucified with Him, where the flesh with its passions is actually crucified. If that aspect of the cross is omitted and one instead preaches that we are to just "trust in Jesus" because "He will do it all for you" then it is the spirit of error.

I really hope you seriously consider this because the gospel message being preached almost universally IS NOT the gospel of the Bible because they have eliminated the crucifixion of the old man with Christ. The Gospel and the cross has been twisted into an abstract provision which you just trust in whereby this legal transaction occurs which serves to cloak the ongoing rebellion of a sinner.

Salvation IS NOT forensic. Salvation is an actual present state of existence where you are walking in the light as He is in the light with an obedient heart towards God. We yield to God by a faith that works by love and thus walk after the Spirit and it is in this state that God teaches us more and more about Himself and as we learn we apply it to our lives.

 

[Skinski7]

You'll say things like this...

If we could not save ourselves, then turning from our sins to save ourselves is somewhat not the gospel we preach. Since by believing in Him as our Saviour is how we are saved, then what we lean on Him for in witnessing is the hope in Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to deliver the sinner from the bondage to sin and to death.

No amount of commitment nor promises nor a simple decision of "I will" is of the gospel. It is applying faith and hope in Jesus Christ that "He will do it".

You have a misconception in your mind. We don't turn from sin to save ourselves. Turning from sin puts us in a position where God will save us. The forsaking of rebellion to God is a precondition of salvation. One CANNOT receive the implanted word which saves the soul unless they forsake their rebellion. One CANNOT abide in Christ unless they forsake their rebellion. The CANNOT be born again unless the old man dies.

This is why Jesus preached repentance. This is why John the Baptist preached repentance. This is why John called repentance a "first work." This is why in Acts it says "preach repentance proven by deeds." The rebellion to God MUST CEASE before God will do the work in someone that saves them. The blood of Jesus Christ cannot be accessed unless one is walking in the light as He is in the light. One cannot walk in the light unless they first repent.

God delivers a sinner from bondage through repentance and faith whereby the rebellion to His will is forsaken once and for all by which the believer is then in a position to yield to God. It is God that works the "will and to do" that Paul spoke about in us and we apply it through "working out our salvation in fear and trembling" ie. the application of His grace through faith (workers together with God). The result of this is that we come into the likeness of Christ and a unity of the faith (ie. we all walk the same way).

When a sinner repents and forsakes their rebellion then God will raise them up by the same power that raised Jesus from the dead. The former sinner passes from a state of darkness to a state of light and they are empowered by God to walk in purity. We don't walk in purity by means of the flesh, no, we walk in purity by means of His grace which is the power of God to live SIN FREE.

 

[Grandpa]

"No one can make us do anything we don't want to do... LOL"



oh they want to suffer in agonizomai and despair of their own free will. they planned to.

they just said one day "eh...been there done that with sin - boring..." and skip to the Cross and think..."hmmm..ya...sounds okay...i agree....so, i suppose i'll just go off now and summon up a crushed and contrite spirit"

you nailed it Gramps.
again.
love z.

(ps: your puppy just ate my sweet yam pie....you comin' over for him, or should i just let him hang with Roger?)

I don't know how that little guy keeps getting out. I keep telling him stay but then the next thing I know he's over there eating sweet yam pie. I guess we better let him hang out with Roger and let this run its course...

 

[Grandpa]

You'll say things like this...

You have a misconception in your mind. We don't turn from sin to save ourselves. Turning from sin puts us in a position where God will save us. The forsaking of rebellion to God is a precondition of salvation. One CANNOT receive the implanted word which saves the soul unless they forsake their rebellion. One CANNOT abide in Christ unless they forsake their rebellion. The CANNOT be born again unless the old man dies.

This is why Jesus preached repentance. This is why John the Baptist preached repentance. This is why John called repentance a "first work." This is why in Acts it says "preach repentance proven by deeds." The rebellion to God MUST CEASE before God will do the work in someone that saves them. The blood of Jesus Christ cannot be accessed unless one is walking in the light as He is in the light. One cannot walk in the light unless they first repent.

God delivers a sinner from bondage through repentance and faith whereby the rebellion to His will is forsaken once and for all by which the believer is then in a position to yield to God. It is God that works the "will and to do" that Paul spoke about in us and we apply it through "working out our salvation in fear and trembling" ie. the application of His grace through faith (workers together with God). The result of this is that we come into the likeness of Christ and a unity of the faith (ie. we all walk the same way).

When a sinner repents and forsakes their rebellion then God will raise them up by the same power that raised Jesus from the dead. The former sinner passes from a state of darkness to a state of light and they are empowered by God to walk in purity. We don't walk in purity by means of the flesh, no, we walk in purity by means of His grace which is the power of God to live SIN FREE.

We are saved by grace through faith, not of works.

We come to Jesus. Period. All the work is up to Him. All we need is a little faith that He will do what He says He will do.

I am a witness. He keeps His Promises. Go ask Him and find out for yourself.

Read your bible and pray. (Oh yeah, gotta go...)

 

[Skinski7]

I'm going to try this one more time. I agree with you that willful sin and rebellion must be stopped before a person can be saved. This was all started by my question what if someone can't stop? I mean the action, not the intention. Can't is not willful. The assumption I am making is that the person wants to stop the action and cannot. If you say this cannot happen, you are showing that you do not understand reality.

You are right that salvation cannot occur unless a person wants to stop the action, and is willing to do everything in his power to stop. All of my observations assume the person literally cannot stop, no matter how hard he tries.

If you say to such a person, "of course you can, you just don't want to", you are saying what Satan would say to that person, accusing his intention, judging him.. People in such ministries who have tried this tactic have burned out with nervous breakdowns; that's why you think everyone except you is not following Scripture. The people who talk like you do don't last long enough to have a testimony. People have also died because of this kind of counsel. This is why no person can judge whether the action is there because the person wants it or just can't stop.

The intention must be at the moment of salvation and must continue for life. The action may take a while to stop. The Didache fits in because they insist that no one be baptized (thus get saved) without sponsors who fast for them. The apostles and prophets set up a different dynamic to empower the church to help these people change the action.

"Accepting salvation" is a term some people use for responding to the Gospel with repentance and desire to make Jesus their Lord. Jesus died for everyone, but not everyone is willing to do that.

Depending on your denomination, sin means different things. It can mean the willful choice, and/or the action. If you are compelled by chemicals or illness to do something, that is still sin in some people's eyes, because it is action against the will of God. But it is not sin in some people's eyes because you don't want to do it. It is the job of the Body of Christ to make the healing and grace to stop the action available to the person.

What you need to learn is that saying what you are saying, when you are in this ministry is dangerous. You must distinguish between can't and won't and allow for it. Without that, you will never be able to help the person who wants to stop and cannot.

The reason you have this "can't stop" is because you don't teach the crucifixion of the flesh in repentance. You don't have the old man being crucified once and for all in your Gospel. You have not alluded to it a single time as far as I can see in response to what I have written.

Thus if you don't believe in the flesh with its passions and desires being crucified once and for all then of course you'll believe that one "cannot stop" the wicked conduct because you have eliminated the means by which it stops.

Godly sorrow is very powerful and Paul clearly describes the fruit of godly sorrow.

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

When a sinner goes through this and their heart is circumcised then God raises them up to a new understanding. Not only that He quickens their mortal body so that they can put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit. When this happens we have been set free.

You specifically used an example of a drunkard who "cannot stop" drinking. Yet if a drunkard goes through the process of godly sorrow and repentance by which his old man is crucified once and for all with Christ, and he is then raised up to newness of life and is quickened in mind and body, then he is delivered from the bondage of drinking and will have stopped.

There is no such thing as Christian drunkard. One has either been saved from their sin or they have not. There is no middle ground.

What would I say to a heroin addict? I would tell him that God will deliver him from his addiction and save his soul but he must first seek a broken repentance by seeking the face of God in order to forsake his sin. If he is genuinely broken on the rock of Christ he will then do everything he can in forsaking that addiction. God is not absent for He will be directing the addict in all that he has to do, God is the light and the addict will be yielding to that light because the root of rebellion has been broken. The addict won't be going "oh I cannot help it, i'll just go and join some program but in the meantime will continue using for I am covered by grace in the meantime." No way! The heroin addict will have accepted full responsibility for selling himself into bondage and know he must get clear of his wrongdoing and through the fruit of godly sorrow which is indignation over sin, a fear of God, a vehement desire he will be in complete submission to God and he will be delivered by the mighty power of God through his faith.

Jesus healed the sick. Jesus cures addiction. Jesus sets people free indeed.

 

[Skinski7]

We are saved by grace through faith, not of works.

We come to Jesus. Period. All the work is up to Him. All we need is a little faith that He will do what He says He will do.

I am a witness. He keeps His Promises. Go ask Him and find out for yourself.

Read your bible and pray. (Oh yeah, gotta go...)

Faith is the dynamic application of faith, it is not passive trust. Authentic faith is in yielding to God.

Read Hebrews 11 and you will see that faith is connected to DOING.

Hence we are saved by grace through faith because faith is the dynamic of first believing God and then yielding to His instruction.

This grace of God that BRINGS SALVATION teaches us.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

When we YIELD to that grace the result is salvation. This is because the reason Jesus came was to...

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

He came to redeem us from ALL iniquity and to PURIFY unto Himself a people who would be zealous of doing what is right.

This purity is spoken of by Peter...

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We see that the soul is purified through obedience to the truth through the Spirit. It is in yielding to God that we are made pure. It is by faith that we yield to God and this is why the Bible says that it is FAITH WHICH PURIFIES THE HEART.

Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Thus when Paul is teaching that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith he is speaking in the context of a salvation that is wrought through yielding to God as opposed to a salvation that is wrought through works which are done apart from a faith that yields to God.

God authors the salvation of those whom obey Him which means God authors the salvation who YIELD to Him by faith. Thus these people are saved by grace through faith and not of themselves for it is a gift and not of works lest anyone should boast.

Those who claim that Ephesians 2:8-9 is teaching that we are saved by "simply trusting in this free gift of salvation" and thus "we don't have to DO anything" are basically calling Jesus a liar because Jesus said that YOU DO HAVE TO DO SOMETHING.

Jesus said STRIVE to enter in at the strait gate and narrow way. Strive literally means TO MAKE GREAT EFFORT. When Jesus was asked if FEW BE SAVED His response was in telling people to STRIVE.

Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

STRIVE - agōnizomai
From G73; to struggle, literally (to compete for a prize), figuratively (to contend with an adversary), or generally (to endeavor to accomplish something): - fight, labor fervently, strive.

Paul illustrated saved by grace through faith when he wrote to the Philippians where he said this...

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

God works in us to both will and to do (His grace).

We are to WORK OUT or to WORK FULLY, DO PERFORM, ie. YIELD TO GOD in order for authentic salvation to manifest.

WORK OUT - katergazomai
From G2596 and G2038; to work fully, that is, accomplish; by implication to finish, fashion: - cause, do (deed), perform, work (out).

If one is to read the parables of Jesus there is a clear distinction between those who DID and those who DID NOT. Those who DID NOT are rejected every single time.

So to completely isolate Ephesians 2:8-9 out of its context and use it against the things I have written is pure fallacy.

I use scripture to support everything I write and when people respond VERY FEW actually deal with the actual content of my posts. Instead they will dodge the actual content and attempt to misdirect attention in an attempt to discredit me.

If you disagree with what I have written then take me to tasks and use the scripture to show my error. Don't use as a proof text a scripture which you isolate and apply out of context.

Jesus never taught that salvation was simply a free gift and that all you had to do to receive it was just trust in Him. Jesus taught that you must be a doer of the word and build your house upon the rock. You must yield to His instruction in order to be saved. You must DO SOMETHING. Jesus taught that if you don't do what He said then you are a fool building your house upon the sand.

The vast majority of those who profess Jesus Christ as Lord will be rejected at the judgment. Please don't be one of them.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Colours]

'He who says he is without sin, is deceived. The truth is not in him'.

 

[zone]

What would I say to a heroin addict? I would tell him that God will deliver him from his addiction and save his soul but he must first seek a broken repentance by seeking the face of God in order to forsake his sin.

sure glad you were nowhere around when i was a heroin addict The Lord delivered from bondage.
He is so merciful and kind....not only did He perform a supernatural intervention to get me where i needed to be, he kept your ilk away.
may He continue to do so.

 

[Colours]

Do you say to them 'Go and be filled', without giving what the body needs?

What benefit is there of that?

 

[zone]

Skinski
have you been born from above?

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still no answer.





Skinski:
have you been born from above?

 

[Enow]

I completely agree with what you have written as far as the context that James clearly wrote in the context of some of those in the church who were relying on the providence of God while neglecting what James calls the pure religion which is undefiled before God. These people had a "God will take care of it" attitude.

Yet the faith that James speaks of cannot be isolated from the work of faith that Paul describes, nor can it be disconnected faith as it relates to salvation...

Context is everything, brother. Let's keep to the message James was giving.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? [Here James SPECIFICALLY speaks of a SAVING FAITH. A faith that does not "work by love," does not "establish the law in the heart," is "not manifested outwardly by righteous conduct" is a dead faith.]

Now apply verse 14 above to the following verses below. To understand the message James was giving here, let's discern if profit is being applied the believer or is profit really being applied to the poor?

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Here, James was talking about a believer that says he has faith, but not works as James was addressing the topic of voicing faith in God's Providence to the poor, but yet not giving the poor the things which are needful to the body, thus what does it profit the poor? Nothing. And what is the result of giving nothing of the things needful to the body? The poor dies and thus that kind of verbalizing faith in His Providence does not profit the poor nor save the poor.

Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

The pure in heart will see God.

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

I have highlighted your quote in blue and emboldened it for your notice: that wicked servant will pay it in full and thus he will come out of prison.

If you consider the Marriage Supper to be held in sincerity & in truth, then holding a grudge against another brother is not conducive to the atmosphere of celebration of what Christ has done for us, therefore no one holding a grudge against another believer is going to be there...period. They will be left behind from the pre tribulational rapture event when God will judge His House first.

You have completely thrown out the whole purpose of repentance....

Did Paul leave out the importance of repenting from all our sins in order to be saved below?

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

How about Jesus? Did He leave out repentance on how one is born again below?

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I'm not saying that there is no need for repentance from sin when it is paramount in walking with Him to abide in Him, but in being saved, repenting from unbelief is all that is needed thus we have received power to live as sons of God so that by His grace & by His help, we turn from all of our sins to follow Him by trusting Him as our Good Shepherd & thus getting to know Him & the power of His resurrection.

Repentance IS NOT simply believing in Jesus and then waiting on God to clean you up. That is error.

Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:..9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

It is true that a sinner is a slave to sin like you say but that bondage is broken through godly sorrow and repentance where those who are to be Christ's CRUCIFY THEIR FLESH WITH THE PASSIONS AND DESIRES (Gal 5:24).

May He redirect your gaze higher, brother.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

You keep pointing at the sinner to do it, he is going to be honest and leave. You keep pointing at believers to do it, he is going to be honest and say I cannot do it and say christianity doesn't work.

There is a reason why the just shall live by faith: but getting back to your misapplication of Galatians 5:24, look at how we receive Christ as the real cause of having crucified the flesh.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Thus the call to live by sowing to the fruits of the Spirit as opposing sowing to the works of the flesh in reaping corruption is what we lean on our Good Shepherd in helping us to do in following Him.

Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.....5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Can you see the error? When you preach the Gospel it appears you do not preach the aspect of the cross where our old man is crucified with Him, where the flesh with its passions is actually crucified. If that aspect of the cross is omitted and one instead preaches that we are to just "trust in Jesus" because "He will do it all for you" then it is the spirit of error.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The whole poi9nt of being crucified is living by faith in the Son of God in us that He will do it thus the reason why it is written simply that the just shall live by faith.

I really hope you seriously consider this because the gospel message being preached almost universally IS NOT the gospel of the Bible because they have eliminated the crucifixion of the old man with Christ. The Gospel and the cross has been twisted into an abstract provision which you just trust in whereby this legal transaction occurs which serves to cloak the ongoing rebellion of a sinner.

I have seen religious guantlets tossed out to believers in making a commitment to Christ or a commitment to follow Christ and it has been proven a heavy yoke to bear. So there is something wrong with your gospel in how you are presenting it for a sinner to be saved, because God can save children.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Mark 10:13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

What can a child do but trust the Lord?

Salvation IS NOT forensic. Salvation is an actual present state of existence where you are walking in the light as He is in the light with an obedient heart towards God. We yield to God by a faith that works by love and thus walk after the Spirit and it is in this state that God teaches us more and more about Himself and as we learn we apply it to our lives.

Having been saved by faith in Jesus Christ and being His disciples to be found abiding in Him are two different things.

One has to be saved in order to have power to follow Him, but one cannot follow Him if they are not saved. That does not mean those that profess Him but do not follow Him are not saved. To clarify, a sinner that does not believe in Him cannot follow the teachings of Jesus religiously as something he could do by his will power and by his flesh. And yet I have seen how religious christians are condemned for trying to do that by the flesh and thus ceased to follow Him altogether and not just from religiously doing so. There is a call of trust in Him as our Saviour that we are saved just as there is a continual call of trust in Him as our Good Shepherd that we can follow Him by faith in the Son of God dwelling in us.

Believers are to be taught by His disciples in being His disciples so that their joy may be full, but sinners need to hear the hope in Christ if you expect any to call on Him to be saved in the first place.

 

[Skinski7]

'He who says he is without sin, is deceived. The truth is not in him'.

Jesus actually said, "he who is without sin cast the first stone." The context was in a group of self-righteous people who were trying to find fault with Jesus.

Joh 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
Joh 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
Joh 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
Joh 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
Joh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

1Joh 1:8 says this...

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Many use that verse to reject this...

Joh_8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

To reject this...

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

To reject this...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

To reject this...

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

To reject this...

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

To reject this...

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

To reject this...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

To reject this...

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

To reject this...

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.



The truth though is that 1Joh 1:8 is not teaching that you will always be sinning. That meaning can only be deduced by ripping it out of context. 1Joh 1:8 is a verse about repentance and it is one of the conditions that must be met for one to be able to walk in the light as He is in the light. Here read it for yourself...

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. [Notice the conditional IF statement. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses from all sin on the condition that one is walking in the light as He is in the light which is with NO DARKNESS AT ALL (1Joh 1:5).]
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [One cannot approach God saying they have no sin because we have all rebelled.]
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [If we confess our sins He will forgive us and cleanse us of ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. If one is cleansed from all sin (1Joh 1:7) and all unrighteousness (1Joh 1:9) then how can 1Joh be applied as teaching that the sin never stops? It cannot.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. [Here John reiterates his statement. If we come to God and say that we have no sin then we are liars.]
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: [Notice here that another IF statement is used. If 1Joh 1:8 was teaching that the sin never stops then the word here would be WHEN. Also the sin here which we have an advocate for cannot be willful transgression but must refer to sins done in ignorance because to willfully sin is to recrucify Christ and treat His blood as a cheap sacrifice you can use over and over (Heb 10:26-29).
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [This is one way that we can know if we know Him. Are we yielding to His instruction or not?]
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [Those who claim Jesus as Lord and yet do not yield to His instructions are liars, this verse is very clear.]
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. [This verse contradicts the use of 1Joh 1:8 to teach that the sin never stops. No-one walks as Jesus walked while they still yield to the lusts of the flesh and sin.]

Presenting 1Joh 1:8 as teaching that the sin never stops completely contradicts 1Joh chapter 3 (he who does what is righteous and true Christian's manifest righteous deeds).

Presenting 1Joh 1:8 as teaching that the sin never stops also contradicts Jesus teaching on how a good tree will bear good fruit and that one cannot serve two masters. Paul taught that we are slaves to whom we obey and so did Jesus.

True Christian's are saints and they are faithful, they are not sinners. If a saint is yielding to sin then they need to repent and forsake their rebellion to God otherwise they will be burned up as a tare at the judgement.

Eph_1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

 

[Enow]

You have a misconception in your mind. We don't turn from sin to save ourselves. Turning from sin puts us in a position where God will save us. The forsaking of rebellion to God is a precondition of salvation.

You had just contradicted yourself there, brother.

I can find alot of verses where believing in Jesus Christ is how one is saved and it is by not believing in Jesus Christ is how they are not saved.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I am sure you will find verses that says repent, but I still believe that call of repentance was from unbelief in Jesus Christ.

Mark 1:15And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,


Salvation is a free gift, but being His disciple in following Him does require repentance from sins in running that race.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Those that profess Him and do not care to run that race will be judged and be left behind from the Marriage Supper because God will chasten every child He receives:

Hebrews 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. 12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; 13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. 14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.....25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[Enow]

There is no such thing as Christian drunkard. One has either been saved from their sin or they have not. There is no middle ground.

There is no middle ground in being His disciple, but a christian drunkard is still saved even for simply believing in His name.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It is because the christian drunkard is saved that he should be warned to turn to Him for help in repentance.

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Jesus sets people free indeed.

That is the truth, but your preconditions prevents sinners from placing their hopes on Him.

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

The answer to verse 24 is Jesus Christ the Lord, and sinners are saved when they believe in Him.

 

[Colours]

Jesus actually said, "he who is without sin cast the first stone." The context was in a group of self-righteous people who were trying to find fault with Jesus.

Joh 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
Joh 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
Joh 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
Joh 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
Joh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

1Joh 1:8 says this...

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Many use that verse to reject this...

Joh_8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

To reject this...

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

To reject this...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

To reject this...

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

To reject this...

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

To reject this...

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

To reject this...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

To reject this...

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

To reject this...

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.



The truth though is that 1Joh 1:8 is not teaching that you will always be sinning. That meaning can only be deduced by ripping it out of context. 1Joh 1:8 is a verse about repentance and it is one of the conditions that must be met for one to be able to walk in the light as He is in the light. Here read it for yourself...

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. [Notice the conditional IF statement. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses from all sin on the condition that one is walking in the light as He is in the light which is with NO DARKNESS AT ALL (1Joh 1:5).]
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [One cannot approach God saying they have no sin because we have all rebelled.]
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [If we confess our sins He will forgive us and cleanse us of ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. If one is cleansed from all sin (1Joh 1:7) and all unrighteousness (1Joh 1:9) then how can 1Joh be applied as teaching that the sin never stops? It cannot.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. [Here John reiterates his statement. If we come to God and say that we have no sin then we are liars.]
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: [Notice here that another IF statement is used. If 1Joh 1:8 was teaching that the sin never stops then the word here would be WHEN. Also the sin here which we have an advocate for cannot be willful transgression but must refer to sins done in ignorance because to willfully sin is to recrucify Christ and treat His blood as a cheap sacrifice you can use over and over (Heb 10:26-29).
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [This is one way that we can know if we know Him. Are we yielding to His instruction or not?]
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [Those who claim Jesus as Lord and yet do not yield to His instructions are liars, this verse is very clear.]
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. [This verse contradicts the use of 1Joh 1:8 to teach that the sin never stops. No-one walks as Jesus walked while they still yield to the lusts of the flesh and sin.]

Presenting 1Joh 1:8 as teaching that the sin never stops completely contradicts 1Joh chapter 3 (he who does what is righteous and true Christian's manifest righteous deeds).

Presenting 1Joh 1:8 as teaching that the sin never stops also contradicts Jesus teaching on how a good tree will bear good fruit and that one cannot serve two masters. Paul taught that we are slaves to whom we obey and so did Jesus.

True Christian's are saints and they are faithful, they are not sinners. If a saint is yielding to sin then they need to repent and forsake their rebellion to God otherwise they will be burned up as a tare at the judgement.

Eph_1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

What are you talking about? The quote is from John ...

No person is without sin. Nomatter how many righteous acts on thinks one does, 'they are as filthy rags'.

Jesus saves humanity from death because he is the sacrifice upon the alter.

Belief in his ways saves us from 'consequence of sin'. So it is BENIFICIAL not to sin.

'For you have called to be free, but do not use this freedom to indulge the flesh, instead to serve one another humbly in love'.

And we can try.

But none are perfect.

'for I still partake in the things of which I know I should not'.

But Jesus is of forgiveness.

Example; 'the adulterous woman'.

Jesus forgave one who people say is unsaved. A sinner.

He himself saved her.

And the people in the crowd, pointing and calling her 'sinner', their human judgement was also sin. And their wicked hearts wanting to catch Jesus out to have him killed. That was also sin.

So who is better?

NONE!!

NONE have the witness of the father for their purity of heart, because their is no heart that is pure.

I tell you whoever hates his brother commits murder in his heart.

So take every thought and hold it captive to Christ.

This is what is BENEFICIAL.

To abstain from bad intent and action, from anger, and hate, and spite, and pride, is to abstain also from their consequence.

For what is a world where nobody abstains from these things?? It is chaos. A horrible place to live.

And to wish and hope adn have faith and love and joy is what is of the Kingdom of God. It is what is the mind of the Spirit.

And to wish and hope and practice such things does as God desires; 'Be it on earth as it is in heaven'.

And this is how one should pray. For only GOD is witness to our hearts.

No man is sinless. And no man has right to judge another's sin.

 

[kenisyes]

I hope I was not conveying that you were not a believer in Jesus Christ nor implying that you were not of the body of Christ.


"Saved" is not an unfolding term, but you are right when another church make void the effect of the cross by unfolding that term as if a believer is not saved yet.

Never thought you were. Just saying others have said that, and caused some trouble saying it.

It's really hard to come up with definitive language when there is so much verbiage being expended to try to argue about basic definitions. Our walk from sinfulness at one point in our lives, to heaven after we die, is in many steps. That means our life with God unfolds as we go through our earthly life. That is what I meant. There are several central steps to defining us as committed followers of Jesus (recognizing who He is, giving Him our life, repentance, etc.) and various churches use the word "salvation" for different combinations of those steps. It's not terribly relevant as long as each person is helped at each step of his walk. They get there anyway, and that's what evangelism is for.

 

[Skinski7]

Enow...


The Bible is not a menu where you pick and choose the parts which you want to apply to salvation.

Just because one passage may not have a full explanation of something does not negate what another passage teaches on the issue.

A car comprises of wheels, an engine, a drive shaft, a fiuel tank and many other components. A car also needs a driver to operate it to get from point A to point B.

It is a true statement to tell someone, "fill up your car with gas and you'll be able to get into town."

Yet that statement will not be true if the car has no wheels.

It is the same with salvation.

For example, you can appeal to Rom 10:8-13 (fill your car with gas and you'll be able to get to town) but that does not mean you can ignore Rom 2:6-8 (your car needs wheels).

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Likewise, you can appeal to Joh 3:8-16 (fill your car with gas and you'll be able to get to town) saying all you need to do is "belive" yet you cannot ignore Joh 3:36.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Believe Not - apeitheō
From G545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely): - not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.

Those who God delivered from the Egyptians believed in the literal sense of the word. They saw all the miracles, they witnessed their deliverance through the red sea. Yet they were disobedient and concluded in unbelief.

All you are doing is isolating and proof texting passages of scripture in order to attack the clear teaching of other scripture. Are you so blind that you cannot see you are doing this?

You are twisting the scriptures to your own destruction in order to deny the truth that rebellion to God must be forsaken before forgiveness is granted.

You have twisted everything and your not really even addressing what I have written and thus it is really pointless to continue in discussion with you.

You even use Gal 2:20 to imply that God does it all for you. Gal 2:20 is Paul stating very clearly that He DIED WITH CHRIST (ie. his flesh was crucified with its passions and desires, the grain of wheat died, his rebellion to God ceased, he does not live for the lusts of the flesh, he has lost his own life for the sake of Christ) and that NOW it is Christ manifesting righteousness THROUGH HIM because the "will of Paul" is in SUBMISSION to the "will of God." Hence Paul is a doer of the word. He has received the implanted word which saves his soul.

Yet you imply Gal 2:20 is teaching that the believer just has this trust in God and waits on God to do everything for you.

The truth is God does a work THROUGH YOU when YOU YIELD to Him.

If you REFUSE TO YIELD then the work THROUGH YOU will never occur. This is why the church system is in error when they teach sinners to "receive Jesus" and then it is implied that God will clean them up later. God will never clean them up because God commanded them to forsake their rebellion and yield to Him. No Yielding = No Salvation.

You are teaching salvation whether one yields or not. In other words "Ye will surely not die."