Perfection in the Flesh - A Modern Strawman - Heresy of Penal Substitution

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Jan 11, 2013
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God keeps me, there was a time that i appealed to grace like you. But it did not work, no one told me I could live for God. And this is why appealing to grace never worked. Its spiritual laziness promoted in many churches, if they told people to stop sinning they'd empty out their churches and lose money! So, they tell others what they want to hear. Grace only, without a response to that grace.

If you hold onto that sinner identity, you put focus on that, you think on that, and you walk in that. Being sin minded without being God is Holy minded always brings the same, you sin. You took your eyes off God. It is only done with God. So, again, what's your beef with me sir? Because i believe I can live for God, and you have not the faith to do so?
Because I do not see myself as a 'wretch' and you only see yourself as filth and hate anyone that says they are a new creation?(in Christ)?
How would you know which one of us sins the most?
The only difference I can see is, I am not claiming not to be a sinner, according to the biblical definition of sin, you are the one who said a person cannot be a saint and sinner
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
are you guys ever going to get around to proving any of us do?

how about proving you don't?
lol.. Come on now. you want him to ignore you too??
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
all CC members:

do you love your sin more than God?
are you unholy,profane,loose in morals and conduct,haters of God?

the few have said we are.
mind you, we have no idea about their fruit.
but believe them anyways because they sound so religious.
and so holy.
and they talk about OUR sin all the time.
that means they have none.
Lol, seems to me it is they who excuse their sin, not us.
 
R

rauleetoe

Guest
You may have to wait quit awhile. They still have not answered this either.

Rauleeto, Tommy, Skinski,

Do any of you have the peace that passes all understanding? Do any of you have joy? Do you understand what it means to have the inside cleaned out as opposed to the outside which looks so much better,but does not do one thing to change the heart? Do you even begin to understand what He means when He talks about even the very thoughts will condem you? Do you understand that without one thing it is impossible to please Him? Do you understand what is at the heart of obedience? Jesus was very clear about it and He summed up all the laws and prophets in two commands. John was also very clear about it in his first letter,if you do not love your brothers and sisters,you do not love the Lord and are not His. So what is the motivation of your heart?
The motivation is to keep you or anyone else from going to where others i have gone to. I cannot emphasize how i have seen some fall and those of the grace only expression and of Reform theology adhering did not have an answer. I for one have tried to live for God for some time, the calvinists had no answers(half of them do not want to live for God, i know..ive broke bread with them, their lives show this), the charismatics appeal only to the gifts,and want you to do the same..Others appeal only to grace. That is not the full gospel. Regardless, i cannot be silent because you may not want to hear it, or it makes you uneasy. I would rather you be offended and know that I tried to reach you, you have a chance..we all do,until we die. I speak this way because I wish someone would have told me sooner about the possibility of Living for God, nobody told me! Nobody told me!

As far as Joy, My life is not perfect, and its not your concern or business about the details regarding it..but I know God is with me,and i want that for everyone. And at times difficult things have to be said, and some will reject you for that. And that is ok it still has to be said.
 
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Abiding

Guest
Do you practice sin?
If you practice football, or another sport..you always do it. You get quite proficient in it. That's my question. If you do, well you have not converted, and you need to repent. Don't play word games, just go to the Word. Contend with God about it, I did not write the Bible. It's his book..

Please go check your attitude. Im trying hard to hold my lunch down.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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I wish someone would have told me sooner about the possibility of Living for God, nobody told me! Nobody told me!
why didn't you dig in and do what it said?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
and that is why so many professing Christian's are addicted to various sins. For example...


Thirty percent of women are addicted to it. Sixty-seven percent of men say they look at it at least once a month.
“It” refers to pornography. The statistics above reveal how pornography is an epidemic within the church community, and these numbers mirror secular statistics. The percentages are provided by Transparent Ministries and Morality in Media, respectively.

Read more at Pornography Harms Women, Invades the Church
Thirty percent of women are addicted to it. Sixty-seven percent of men say they look at it at least once a month.

It” refers to pornography. The statistics above reveal how pornography is an epidemic within the church community, and these numbers mirror secular statistics. The percentages are provided by Transparent Ministries and Morality in Media, respectively.
Read more at Pornography Harms Women, Invades the Church

Glad you posted the above Skinski
Thanks

So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. [SUP]5[/SUP]For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[SUP][a][/SUP] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. [SUP]8[/SUP]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me

Rom7:4-11

By preaching almost sinless perfection, even to become a Christian, you put the emphasis on law keeping for the convert. For sin is transgression of the law

Paul said

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace

Rom6:14

I repeat, your Gospel helps to be responsible for those statistics

If only you had a proper understanding of Romch7

Why do you think Paul was so insistent a person must die to the law?

the power of sin is the law(1Cor15:56)

BTW
Nothing wrong with the good and Holy laws of God, the problem is with man

It's your Gospel that causes those statistics Skinski. There will be many people suffering under those statistics becaue of your preaching. If you had a true understanding of the above scripture you would know why

AMEN!

why? they have to "hide" this sin, for fear of being exposed as not giving it to God and letting HIM deal with it. Thus they must be weak and not very trusting of God. that is if they are saved at all.

What happened to discipleship? where we can freely come to our brothers and confess this sin before it gets out of hand, and we can go through it together. If we did it this way, those statistics would be much lower. because people would be getting victory.

Jesus washed the disciples feet. He said this is how they were supposed to wash each others feet. It is a community thing. We all need cleansed from time to time. But not alone, we can;t wash our own feet. if we could. Jesus would have showed us how. He said I wash my brothers feet (to help cleanse him of problems) and in return he washes my feet. etc etc.

It is them who are the problem. because they refuse to wash each other, only judge each other. so everyone hides their sin, including them! And then they judge us.
 
Jan 11, 2013
2,256
17
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God keeps me, there was a time that i appealed to grace like you. But it did not work, no one told me I could live for God. And this is why appealing to grace never worked. Its spiritual laziness promoted in many churches, if they told people to stop sinning they'd empty out their churches and lose money! So, they tell others what they want to hear. Grace only, without a response to that grace.

If you hold onto that sinner identity, you put focus on that, you think on that, and you walk in that. Being sin minded without being God is Holy minded always brings the same, you sin. You took your eyes off God. It is only done with God. So, again, what's your beef with me sir? Because i believe I can live for God, and you have not the faith to do so?
Because I do not see myself as a 'wretch' and you only see yourself as filth and hate anyone that says they are a new creation?(in Christ)?
But what are you doing practically in your life to live for God?
What is the fruit you are bringing forth, to prove you have died to the flesh?

Do you run a soup kitchen foir the homeless?

Do you give all of your spare money to the poor?

Do you put people up for the night if they have nowhere to live?

Are you working for charities that help the destitute?



I'm sorry, but just talking about living for God means nothing does it, it is just words

What sins do you believe I and others are committing that you are abstaining from?

I mean, anyone can say words, that is easy
What proof do you have that you live a more Goidfearing life than any other Christian on this website?

It is easy to point the finger and profess others are not where they should be
But if you are not giving your spare time to God, what does it say to point the finger at others?

I guess its easier that way, to deflect from your own issues
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Grace without a response is still cheap grace,a false and utterly cheapened counterfeit. If you have experienced grace, you will repent. And if your lifestyle has not changed, yet you want to still call yourself a christian. Well, sorry to be the bringer of bad news, you are a liar. The truth is not in you.
Grace is not cheap. It is the body of Christ coming together to help each other. In trial and tribulation

Do you not get sick of these attacks on other people beliefs when you have utterly no clue what they believe? Are you ever going to slow down and listen. or keep spatting off at the mouth? in utter disregard for what someone else believes?
 
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rauleetoe

Guest
How would you know which one of us sins the most?
The only difference I can see is, I am not claiming not to be a sinner, according to the biblical definition of sin, you are the one who said a person cannot be a saint and sinner
I showed in scripture in 1 john 3:7 that he who practices right living, is right! (let no one deceive you)
verse 8 says he who commits sin is of the devil(not my words, its in the word, deal with it)
verse 9 says no one who is born of God habitually practices sin(once again not my words,open your bible,read it yourself)
verse 10 declares that those who are of God show it by how they live,because they take their nature from God..and those who take their nature of the Devil..well,they of the devil, once again i am sorry to disappoint you. But the loving and true response i must make is that if you ignore that, you ignore God's command to live right.
For God has not called us to uncleanliness,but unto holiness, 1 thessalonians 4:7, and whoever disregards this(you may want to But i must warn you that this command) comes from God, not man, so you disregard God,who has given us his Holy spirit. 1 thessalonians 4:8

That is a loving response, it may not be what you want me to hear. But sometimes painfully truthfull things must be said, and now i pray that even if it was not said in the most 'perfect' way you can read it for yourself. Examine scripture and see if God's work speaks for right living/holiness...or dangerously persmissive disobedience aka Easy Believism,the fruit of OSAS belief.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
why didn't you dig in and do what it said?

That sounded like a cry from a worldly sorrow that doesnt lead to true repentance
It was someone elses fault. Now im also justified to go on the warpath in revenge.

I always figured it was my sinful heart, or that the Lord hadnt started that work on me
yet. I rekon it never dawned on me that my problems were other peoples fault.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Really?

I am a sinner and a saint

Sin is transgression of the law 1John3:4

Do you perfectly at all times uphold all of the law Rauleetoe?
I guess you must if you claim to be a saint but not a sinner
lol, he says he still sins, But then comes comments like these. He contradicts himself.

is he a sinless saint? is he a sinner saved by Grace?

we won;t know because he can't make up his mind
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Since when were you given the gift of suspiscion or the gift of soothsaying? What..you can read minds now?
Carefull zone..you're treading on thin ice now.
Don't ya get it Zone? it is ok for him to do this. but we are not aloud. I know he reads my stuff. People see his hypocracy by him continually ignoring me. He only does it because he can;t answer my questions, and I confront him on these issues.
 
Dec 26, 2012
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The motivation is to keep you or anyone else from going to where others i have gone to. I cannot emphasize how i have seen some fall and those of the grace only expression and of Reform theology adhering did not have an answer. I for one have tried to live for God for some time, the calvinists had no answers(half of them do not want to live for God, i know..ive broke bread with them, their lives show this), the charismatics appeal only to the gifts,and want you to do the same..Others appeal only to grace. That is not the full gospel. Regardless, i cannot be silent because you may not want to hear it, or it makes you uneasy. I would rather you be offended and know that I tried to reach you, you have a chance..we all do,until we die. I speak this way because I wish someone would have told me sooner about the possibility of Living for God, nobody told me! Nobody told me!

As far as Joy, My life is not perfect, and its not your concern or business about the details regarding it..but I know God is with me,and i want that for everyone. And at times difficult things have to be said, and some will reject you for that. And that is ok it still has to be said.
The motivation is out of LOVE. It is how we obey,it comes from a heart of love which God gives us.

The reason I ask is what are the first three fruits of the Holy Spirit? Are they not LOVE,JOY,and PEACE. They are the fruits that show the Holy Spirit is dwelling in us.

Galatians 5

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [SUP]23 [/SUP]gentleness and self-control.Against such things there is no law.
 
R

rauleetoe

Guest
But what are you doing practically in your life to live for God?
What is the fruit you are bringing forth, to prove you have died to the flesh?

Do you run a soup kitchen foir the homeless?

Do you give all of your spare money to the poor?

Do you put people up for the night if they have nowhere to live?

Are you working for charities that help the destitute?



I'm sorry, but just talking about living for God means nothing does it, it is just words

What sins do you believe I and others are committing that you are abstaining from?

I mean, anyone can say words, that is easy
What proof do you have that you live a more Goidfearing life than any other Christian on this website?

It is easy to point the finger and profess others are not where they should be
But if you are not giving your spare time to God, what does it say to point the finger at others?

I guess its easier that way, to deflect from your own issues
I cannot know if you are hiding sins or not. But why are you so defensive? I never said i can read minds. I merely quoted scripture. You merely have to pray on it, and take it up with God. You meet God on his terms, not according to greasy grace aka false gospel grace. You have to change your life. What did Jesus say to the woman about to be stoned after her accusers left? Go, I do not condemn you(But sin no more)

Sorry if that is a bitter pill to swallow, But God is Holy. We can't lipservice ourself into the kingdom. If that offends you, well I pray you see beyond the offense and into if you are seeking to justify something.
Like i said, I never claimed to read minds.

Deal with the scriptures, not your anger towards me and your hatred for Holy Living. What did the scriptures say? What do they say to all christians? Whoever practices right living is right, whoever does not..well, you are of the devil.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
Don't ya get it Zone? it is ok for him to do this. but we are not aloud. I know he reads my stuff. People see his hypocracy by him continually ignoring me. He only does it because he can;t answer my questions, and I confront him on these issues.
Boy are you in trouble now....but at last itll give grandpa and zone a rest:cool:
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I am not the one who said repentance is not needed. That would be your reform friends..and OSAS proponents.
I feel able to preach the word, and if that offends you. Well, it is God's will that you be offended and your problem exposed.
There you go lying again, Here for the whole chat room to see you. How can you live with yourself when you lie about what other people say and teach?

I will say it again. in big bold letters. and this comes from an OSAS proponent (and everyone I know believes this way)


WITHOUT TRUE REPENTANCE, THERE CAN BE NO FAITH, WITHOUT FAITH THEIR IS NO SALVATION.

Now. do you want to lie and say we do not believe this again?
 
Jan 11, 2013
2,256
17
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AMEN!

why? they have to "hide" this sin, for fear of being exposed as not giving it to God and letting HIM deal with it. Thus they must be weak and not very trusting of God. that is if they are saved at all.

What happened to discipleship? where we can freely come to our brothers and confess this sin before it gets out of hand, and we can go through it together. If we did it this way, those statistics would be much lower. because people would be getting victory.

Jesus washed the disciples feet. He said this is how they were supposed to wash each others feet. It is a community thing. We all need cleansed from time to time. But not alone, we can;t wash our own feet. if we could. Jesus would have showed us how. He said I wash my brothers feet (to help cleanse him of problems) and in return he washes my feet. etc etc.

It is them who are the problem. because they refuse to wash each other, only judge each other. so everyone hides their sin, including them! And then they judge us.
Amen
People like Rauleetoe, Skinski and Tommy are responsible for those statistics being as bad as they are.
They crush others with demands they themselves do not try and keep, and by preaching almost sinless perfection to come to God, or be a Christian, they are preaching law
For sin is transgression of the law

Which completely contradicts the core message of Paul's Gospel

I have to say it sounds more like self promotion to me than anything else

And because they make such a tabbooo out of the subject people are scared to discuss it with others and seek help

I know of Christian counsellors who counsel people who have been to their churches and become sex addicts, it is tragic
And yet they say they are pointing people to the right way, they do just the opposite in reality
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Do you agree with Skinski?
The works God requires are to put the flesh to death
God does not require any other works from the Christian

Actually, I am still waiting for you to tell me what sins you believe others are committing that you asbstain from. Blasse statements with no particulars in them don't mean much I am afraid

yeah, what sins are we committing which makes us less holy and less deserving of salvation than he is??
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Do you practice sin?
If you practice football, or another sport..you always do it. You get quite proficient in it. That's my question. If you do, well you have not converted, and you need to repent. Don't play word games, just go to the Word. Contend with God about it, I did not write the Bible. It's his book..

Why would you ask this? John says it is impossible for a born again christian to do this. so why even ask? if God says they can not do it, then they can't. Thus it should not even be a question.