Is unconditional election biblical?

let God be Sovereign.

Male or female? You left that out.
Go ahead, answer, "Both!" I would.

Calvin also stated that the fall of Adam and Eve, in all of it’s consequences, was the admirable council of God. In other words, God is the author of sin.

Yes, I admit that I am wrong. Just because he talks trash to me is no reason that I should do the same. It is unbecoming of anyone to act in that manner.

Pure unconditional Calvinistic predestination says that God ordained before the world who would be lost and saved and nothing can change that. The elect will persevere to the end.

If that is true (as stated above) then the pure logic and wording of the statement means that nothing can or will change that fact. Hence missions will not have any affect on the elect. Conclusion: Missions is not necessary.

But then we are told that missions and our actions are also part of God's predestination. OK, God, do with me what you planned since the beginning of the world! I am yours!!!!!! (Meanwhile I will sit here eating potato chips and watching the World Series!)

Now, God does have complete foreknowledge and sovereignty - Yes, and amen to that! He does know who will be saved and who will not be saved. And nothing can change that - yes and amen! The problem with Calvinistic predestination is that it makes a finite doctrine of an infinite God and reduces God's sovereignty to a formula supposedly understood by man! And when you start with a finite man-made statement of an infinite God and hang all of your doctrine and practice on it you will get man's own ideas and living!

What does this mean?

There is a reason to preach the gospel. The inspired words of God were not written to to the eternally unsaved because they cannot discern the things of the Spirit, but they were written to the elect to inform them how God wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here in this world, and also, to inform them that Jesus has died on the cross to pay for their sins and imputed his righteousness unto them, telling them that they do not have to go about trying to establish their own righteousness, by their good works. Jesus instructed his Apostles to go and preach to the lost sheep (God's elect) of the house of Israel.

I believe ALL of these paradoxes are solved if we stay in our lane, and let God be Sovereign.


It is about a world that only has 2 dimensions, and how it is virtually impossible for the people in Flatland to comprehend a third dimension or even 4th dimension. If a 3 dimensional being stuck his fingers into Flatland, the only thing they would see is 2 circles. They would be unable to see or perceive or understand that there is more there than just 2 circles.

We are trying with our 3 lb brain to comprehend the things of an all powerful, all knowing God. We think things like "well if I were God...." fill in the blank. We are WAAAY better off just doing what we are told to do. Which is Love the Lord with all your mind, heart, body and Soul, love people, and spread the Gospel.

Amen! Lets humble ourself! God got this!

I have always said: If you believe in absolute foreknowledge, that God knows the future, you ALREADY BELIEVE in predestination and that everything goes as it does! Because if God knows it, it CANNOT GO any other way. Which is why we have people written in the book of life from the foundation of the world!

That does NOT mean preaching the Gospel is "useless" or just a mindless exercise, these are all REAL events with REAL people and its a REAL relationship with God, true fellowship.

no one has talked trash to you

infantile

Do you believe you were saved before you heard the gospel and believed?

Were you saved before you heard and believed the gospel?

Yes, I would not have been able to discern what the gospel was talking about (1 Cor 2:14). There are eternally saved people who are still babes in Christ who do not understand the full meaning of the gospel and are going about trying to establish their own righteousness by their good works, not understanding that they have the imputed righteousness of Christ and that is who Jesus instructed his Apostles to go and preach the gospel to.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Over and over Scripture says believe and thou shalt be saved, not and you’ll realize you were already saved.

Believing the gospel comes before salvation. You should “harmonize” 1 Cor. 2:14 with these verses instead of your private interpretation.

Except what you do not understand or ignore is, Calvinism does not harmonize with the Gospel.
Scripture clearly teaches predestination, and those who deny it are not in like with Scripture. It teaches that God has elected a certain people who have been given to the Son, and that all those will come to the Son and will persevere. I have proven this with copious Scripture references.
However, God is also wilful. And what can be overlooked is that God's will isn't a singular thing. In scripture it is triune, in a manner of speaking. 1Decretive, efficacious, will. *of something inanimate or abstract) successful in producing a desired or intended result; effective. Will that brings about whatever God decrees. 2. Dispositional will, that which is pleasing to God. 3. Preceptive will, the will exercised that intends order, rules, and or regulates behavior. (Preceptive defined basically) An example being the ten commandments.
Reformed people teach this. In fact, I think John Calvin first decribed these three senses of God's will in the clearest manner.
1.) The Book of 1st Timothy chapter 2 verses 1 thru 6 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people.
Again, we do not deny this, but what sense is "all"? The "all" is in the sense of all types of people, including Jews and Gentiles, and rich and poor. YOUR claim is that Jesus' death was not effective, therefore only brought about the POSSIBLE salvation of every man, not their salvation. So, in effect, the atonement of the free-willer is no atonement at all. It covered no man's sins, only the possibility of their sins being atoned for. In Reformed theology, the salvation of the elect is bought and paid for.
2.) The Book of Romans chapter 12 verses 1-3
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.
I think your point is that God has given each person faith. This is true in one sense, and false in another. Consider the audience and the context. It is talking about believers in the church, because the context goes on to define other spiritual endowments within the body. It is not talking about the non-elect. I don't think some people know how to read in context.
3.) The Book of John chapter 1 verse 47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
I have no clue what your point is, in regards to this verse. Jesus is omniscient. He knew that Nathaniel did not have a dominant personality of guile because he knew Nathaniel from eternity past. Guile was a common problem with Israelites.
If all the world's events was pre-decided, all people's destiny preplanned by God, why would God inspire His word to all people? That they may learn and be moved toward His truth. Why does there exist scripture that informs us we have a choice. And those words that tell us to choose wisely.
That is one of the functions of Scripture. It also serves to condemn those who do not.

By the way, if you are heading down the path of claiming that Reformed people believe that humans are robots, you are wrong. Reformed people in general believe in compatibilism...that God is sovereign and has ultimate free will, but man has a creaturely free will. Nothing ever happens outside of God's decretive will, though. And, part of his decretive will is that he has given a certain people to His son, whose sins were atoned for on the Cross, and the Holy Spirit applies this work to them through preaching the Gospel to them and regenerating them.

And, do you understand that God has exhaustive foreknowledge, and that this, in itself ensures the salvation or reprobation of all individuals? He already knows the outcome, and that outcome cannot be proven wrong. That is why Arminians don't abandon the idea of predestination; they simply redefine it in manners that makes man the cause of his own election. This position would be false, because Scripture clearly teaches that God chooses individuals, and he chooses individuals with negative qualities to make his glory shown more clearly through them (1 Cor 1:26ff).

d. All those verses that say He predetermined whom would come to Salvation aren't saying He played a celestial game like unto Duck-Duck-Go. You go to Heaven, nope you go into damnation, you go to Heaven, and so forth.
Scripture clearly teaches that the Father gave the elect to his Son, who then atoned for their sins on the Cross. The Holy Spirit applies this salvation to the elect.

He didn't need to actively damn the reprobate because they are already damned. He wasn't obligated to regenerate them and apply the benefits of salvation to them.

It means God's Omniscience and Omnipotence are part of His Saving Grace that He delivered to the world. And all that pertains to Salvation is part of His plan to save the worlds people from their sins. He planned that. That whosoever believeth in that, in Jesus, the Savior, the Message of that plan, shall not perish! But shall have immortal life.
The issue is what causes faith. Ephesians 2:1-10 is pretty clear and provides this information.
It wasn't to say God predetermined whom He would save and whom He would damn and in the end we'll all find out which one we are. Even if we only now think we have faith ourselves, it doesn't matter until we learn what God pre-determined and for whom, by name.
Reformed theology doesn't teach that "in the end we will find out who we are". There are two witnesses to the believer; the word of God and the Holy Spirit. Both provide assurance to the believer.
That's a really long response, rebuttal, however, I am weary of that argument that makes out that a doctrine such as was invented by Calvin interpolating scriptures to fit his ideal deity is sacrosanct. I realize the devout will not be moved to change. Perhaps it is a a feeling of assurance that they are what John imagined to define as his version of Elect. Perhaps it is fear of Hell should one deviate from what they've been taught or held as true for so long.
However, God gave us intellect that we may be thoughtful and discretionary and conscious as His creation. And I will not accept a fabricated deity such as that which John imagined to exist and call sacred, when what John describes as that which he believed did exist is that which one would pray salvation from!
John Calvin didn't "invent" Reformed theology. He was a theologian who had a gift of systematization. In other words, he took the teachings of the apostle Paul, as well as the understanding of his contemporaries and Augustine, and systematized them. Reformed theologians provide copious Scriptural references to support their position, so they didn't just pull them out of the air.

By the way, free-willers like Leighton Flowers today admit that they are all over the board, and don't have any organized theology. Leighton Flowers has been trying to get free-willers to unite on doctrine, so they can present an organized opposition to Reformed theology, but it's like herding a bunch of cats Having been fellowshipping with free-willers for decades until the last five years, I think they are clueless and simply trying to explain around teachings in the Bible they don't like. And, I totally admit that the Bible's teachings are offensive to the human mind who wants to exalt humans over God.

A god that creates a race, the human race, in his image and likeness after he predetermines their fall from his grace so as to premeditate those he alone would save by his works, not their conscious awakening to His Spirit, so as to bring some home to him and send those others straight to the Hell he created to receive for his adversary and his angels and then opened to receive his chosen men and women as well. THINK! And you won't let yourself be led to be a Calvinist!
Yes, that's a bit of passion there. But you know what? So to was Jesus' death on the cross. Hallelujah! Thank you Father! Thank you for thinking us worthy. Amen.

Yes, continue to hide your head in the sand and ignore the Scriptures which are clearly teaching contrary to free-willer theology, including John 6, 10, Ephesians 1, 2, Romans 8, 9 and lots of other verses that I have largely listed on the threads I've created.

By the way, your claim that you are worthy makes me sick, if you are talking about worthy of salvation. Jesus is the worthy one, not us. Worthiness is why we worship God, not something to glory in.

Salvation, according to Strong's Greek interpretation means "a deliverance". We are delivered eternally by God's grace, without the works of man. The eternally saved are delivered as we sojourn here in this world by following God's commandments (by our good works) and repenting when we commit sins. This is why so many of the eternally saved people are confused by the scriptures that are telling them to do good works in order to be saved, not understanding that it is not talking about eternal deliverance. There will always be the arguments between works and grace until the salvation scriptures are rightly divides.

You might recheck your own posts. 291- Get out of the basement, you need air. 299 - Your poor poor knowledge. 207 - The rest of your post is gobbledgegook. also 279 - 280 - 241 - 220 and on and on.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Over and over Scripture says believe and thou shalt be saved, not and you’ll realize you were already saved.

Believing the gospel comes before salvation. You should “harmonize” 1 Cor. 2:14 with these verses instead of your private interpretation.

I suggest that you get a good book on Reformed theology if you really want an accurate portrayal of it, and the one I recommend is Five Points of Calvinism by David Steele. The individuals on this site are not accurately portraying it, although I don't doubt the intentions of some of them. Others are simply misinformed and repeating propaganda.