Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, there's more here to agree with. 1 Thess 4 is the "classic rapture" passage, yet has NO MENTION of a glorified trip to heaven. That is significant.

Right. Because there is no heaven reference, or trip up to heaven. Which is my point.

So, you are not a pretribber?

My apologies then.

Then why did the Bible say so in Rev 21:2 and 21:9-10? It’s not written in cryptic codes, the bride is positively identified as New Jerusalem. And Jesus is no longer a man in there, but the temple and it’s light (Rev. 21:23-24). This marriage is symbolic, you have to take it as whatever the Bible says it is, not what you think it means.

Why don’t you go read Rev. 20 first? The first resurrection takes place at the beginning of the millennial reign, the second at the end of it. Here’s the kicker - Both are post-trib.

Or to be more exact...the first resurrection takes place during the Great Tribulation.

And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” And white robes were given unto every one of them, and it was said unto them that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants and also their brethren, who were to be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(Revelation 6:9-11)

Nonnegotiable pretrib rapture premillenniallist here. The pre-tribbers win out on every rapture thread on this site that I have perused. It's not even close. And what comes out during the conversation is the fact that the pre-tribbers possess vastly greater knowledge and understanding of the Scripture than their opponents. Every single time.

WRONG! How can the antichrist come to power and mislead the ignorant masses if the true Christian church (the restraining Spirit) is still here?

Pre-tribulation is clearly presented in scriptures. Yes, if that is your question, it is my belief.

Then please prove it with verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

No one has done that. Can you?

Brother CV5. Ok, can you please explain Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Cor 15:50-54 cited earlier, from a Pre-Trib Rapture perspective?

In my opinion, the text "we will not precede those who have fallen asleep" is demonstrative. That means the Rapture will not happen until the Resurrection of the Saints takes place. Do you believe the Rapture happens before then?

Also, the verse says the Lord descends down from Heaven with a Loud Command, the Voice of an Archangel, and the Trumpet Call of God. I cannot see how this is reconciliable with the notion of a "Secret Rapture". Perhaps you can help?

God Bless.

I have answered you on that query already.
See posts.

Why are you insisting on something to be proved when in fact...to my knowledge ......is not stated in scriptures...but may be inferred?

FreeGrace2 said:
Then please prove it with verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

No one has done that. Can you?

Whatever verses you did share DIDN'T describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. That is the WHOLE THRUST of the "rapture" view.

So, do you actually have any verses that describe that event?


And that is my point!! The ONLY verses pretribbers have require INFERENCE.

When inference is introduced, like a parable, anyone can say anything about what it means.

And all the verses that pretribbers have to infer can easily be explained without any inference to Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

If Jesus DOES plan on taking glorified believers to heaven, why didn't the Bible just say so? Isn't that kind of important??

However, there ARE verses that clearly state that there is ONE resurrection for the saved, and since there will be Trib martyrs (saved people), who are resurrected in the ONE resurrection in Rev 20:5, the idea of any kind of resurrection BEFORE the trib cannot be true.

So, post trib resurrection types don't need "inference" for their view. We have clear Scripture.

Why do you default to verses that "infer" something when there ARE verses that clearly place the ONE resurrection of believers AFTER the Trib at the Second Advent? I really don't understand that.

One resurrection of believers: Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23.

There is also one resurrection of unbelievers, for the purpose of attending the GWT judgment. John 5:29, Acts 24:15.

There are 2 verses that very clearly say that the "gathering up" (2 Thess 2:1) and the resurrection (1 Cor 15:23) will be "when He comes".

In EVERY case where Jesus is said to "come back" refers to the Second Advent. Proof? In the OT, prophecy only describes Jesus as coming to earth TWICE; the FIRST advent as a baby, to become the Suffering Servant and Savior, and the SECOND advent as King of kings.

There is NO OT prophecy about Jesus coming to the clouds and taking anyone back to heaven.

So, ONLY 2 advents. The resurrection is at the Second Advent. 2 Thess 2:1 and 1 Cor 15:23.

You rely on inference. I rely on clearly stated verses.

No.....the rapture...is the rapture.

You cannot apply the transference mind set there by advocating others things are included or the basic ingredient is absent..
It doesn't work that way.

Brother CV5. Ok, can you please explain Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Cor 15:50-54 cited earlier, from a Pre-Trib Rapture perspective?

In my opinion, the text "we will not precede those who have fallen asleep" is demonstrative. That means the Rapture will not happen until the Resurrection of the Saints takes place. Do you believe the Rapture happens before then?

Also, the verse says the Lord descends down from Heaven with a Loud Command, the Voice of an Archangel, and the Trumpet Call of God. I cannot see how this is reconciliable with the notion of a "Secret Rapture". Perhaps you can help?

God Bless.

Or to be more exact...the first resurrection takes place during the Great Tribulation.

And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” And white robes were given unto every one of them, and it was said unto them that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants and also their brethren, who were to be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(Revelation 6:9-11)

FreeGrace2 said:
Then please prove it with verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

No one has done that. Can you?

Sure. Something is something. Nothing is nothing.

What you have not done is share a verse that describes Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. Because He won't be doing that.


This doesn't make sense. What is your point?

I don't have to "apply" anything but what the Bible directly says. The resurrection of all believers will occur at the Second Advent.

I've shared the verses that say all this. No inference, no transference, no speculation. Just straight Scripture.

Pre-tribulation is clearly presented in scriptures. Yes, if that is your question, it is my belief.