Apostles

My understanding is that the reconciliation is just like the 12 tribes - there are actually 14 total names counted among them, but whenever they are numbered, two are omitted - depending on how the numbering calls for counting.

so there are 14 total apostles - both Paul and Matthias are ordained in truth, and Judas was also numbered among them - but when we count, we number 12, depending on the space the count is counted in.

The algebra of heaven is not the algebra of earth

yeah the same scriptures that say there are twelve apostles of the lamb ?

“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And apostles are all appointed by Jesus himself was my point Peter was never told to cast lots to choose an apostle he did that before they received the spirit

paul is the only person ever to be chosen by the risen lord Jesus in person on earth to be an apostle other than the twelve he chose in the gospel

Jesus removed Judas by his own word , and restored Paul by his own word that makes exactly 12 apostles chosen by Jesus Christ in person which is the requirement of an apostle of Jesus Christ


There are twelve because the pattern in the ot has twelve tribes ( remembering they are also changed from the original group like the 12 apostles ) but there are still only twelve recognized tribes of Israel in the revelation just different names

12 sons of Jacob who is israel, ( ot )

“and had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬



12 apostles of Jesus Christ o is lord of all ( nt)

And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There is no contradiction in scripture.

Judad is called an apostle: it is true.
Matthias is called an apostle: it is true.
Paul is called an apostle: it is true.
There are 12 apostles: it is true.

Where we err is how we do math. we are working in the wrong space, so we thing there is a conflict in accepting Paul vs. accepting Matthias vs. recognizing Judas.

Not **changed** but counted differently.
No two lists in scripture of the 12 tribes are identical. each time they are listed differently - and no tribe ever lost 'tribehood'

See my previous post, this topic touches on deep, deep things

Apostles with epistles calls to mind......

yeah if you follow from jacobs original blessing though it just takes the course God set like the tribe of Dan

“Dan shall be a serpent by the way, An adder in the path, That biteth the horse heels, So that his rider shall fall backward.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭49:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


What I’m saying is Dan is eliminated from the final heavenly list but it’s what was always going to be because Gid foretold it through jacobs blessing

“Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:5-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

my point was that like Dan is eliminated from the list of the twelve tribes Judas is eliminated from the original twelve apostles Jesus actually said it was meant to be that Judas was lost ,

what im saying is the twelve tribes of the ot is a pattern of the twelve apostles of the nt 24 elders in other words paul is the only other human to experience Jesus face to face on earth ( John goes into heaven in revelation ) but Jesus appears to Paul specifically to send him out as apostle making th at 12 that Jesus chose and appointed to apostleship

that’s all I’m saying are there other “ apostles “ sure I know a guy now who calls himself an apostle but Jesus only ever chose and appointed 12 they raised the dead healed the sick and we still have thier witnesses in the Bible

The concept of the five-fold ministry comes from Ephesians 4:11, "It was He (Jesus) who gave some to be (1) apostles, some to be (2) prophets, some to be (3) evangelists, and some to be (4) pastors and (5) teachers."

^
evidently: when Jesus was placing people into these 5 Roles, and the Bible does not clarify it, but these 5 Roles are also known as Positions, Offices, Duty, etc. 1 Greek word that can mean 10 other things type of deducting to conclude Office, going on here.

that's only one way to count.
Levi doesn't inherit land -he's excluded whenever talking about inheritance, but included when talking about sonship.
but Joseph is a son, never called a tribe in the OT - instead his two sons are
yet Revelation 7 calls Joseph a tribe - excluding Dan and Ephraim and including Levi & Manasseh ((one of Joseph's sons, so Joseph is doubly-counted there)) -- Revelation 7's lists is astounding! why these names, why this order??


of tribes/sons of Israel, in the OT there are 14 total names of which 12 are chosen whenever they are listed in scripture.
scripture never gives them in the same order.

and we have 14 in the NT called apostles, and they are called 12.
is it not an antetype of the type of the tribes in the OT?

that is indeed where so-called 'modern apostles' appeal to to justify the position they claim for themselves. thank you for posting it =]


i do not agree with their interpretation of this passage -- you pretty much have to totally ignore any other part of the Bible that defines an apostle, and Paul's statement here in Ephesians by itself does not indicate 'apostle' is an ongoing role or office. he's simply stating that God ordained some people as apostles, not that He will perpetually be ordaining apostles throughout time.

IMO the 'apostolic movement' is secular & satanic, power-hungry and vain, purposefully deceiving people into giving them earthly wealth, acclaim & idolatrous veneration. it is of no small coincidence that it is this very group of people that manipulated the evangelical community into voting for Frump - who seeks & receives exactly the same blind, vain, adulterous idolatry from his followers.

just opinion

yes!

absolutely, Dan and Judas are linked

yeah brother what I’m saying is pretty simple jacobs blessing names 12 tribes in the ot genesis 49 jacobs 12 sons

dan is removed from the list in the New Testament because he is foretold to be so

judas also like Dan in jacobs blessing is foretold to be removed

Look at this part just to see one aspect of my point

“Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?”( Judas)
‭‭John‬ ‭6:70‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Dan shall be a serpent by the way, An adder in the path, That biteth the horse heels, So that his rider shall fall backward.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭49:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

my point is like Dan was foretold to be removed from the twelve tribes labeled a serpent , Judas is foretold to be lost and is described as a devil and his betrayer both of those two are removed is what I’m saying and that’s only one aspect of what I’m saying

Of the original names

“Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, The excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power: Simeon and Levi are brethren; Instruments of cruelty are in their habitations. Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: Thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; Thy father's children shall bow down before thee. Judah is a lion's whelp: From the prey, my son, thou art gone up: He stooped down, he couched as a lion, And as an old lion; who shall rouse him up? The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh come; And unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Zebulun shall dwell at the haven of the sea; And he shall be for an haven of ships; And his border shall be unto Zidon. Issachar is a strong ass Couching down between two burdens: Dan shall be a serpent by the way, An adder in the path, That biteth the horse heels, So that his rider shall fall backward.

Gad, a troop shall overcome him: But he shall overcome at the last.


Out of Asher his bread shall be fat, And he shall yield royal dainties. Naphtali is a hind let loose: He giveth goodly words. Joseph is a fruitful bough, Even a fruitful bough by a well; Whose branches run over the wall: Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: In the morning he shall devour the prey, And at night he shall divide the spoil. All these are the twelve tribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭49:3, 5, 8-10, 13-14, 17, 19-22, 27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Reuben Simeon Levi Judah Zebulun Issachar Dan. Gad Asher Naphtali Joseph Benjamin

“Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:5-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The only difference in the first list and last list is Dan is on the first and mannesah is on the last in his place only one is different is my point on that all that

the twelve names won’t be the original list Dan was written off in the blessing as Judah was written off as list and Jesus betrayer

mannasah is added to the list of twelve tribes Paul is the twelth name apostle of the lamb replacing Judas



“and had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:12, 14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s possible brother you don’t see the pattern , I do though I see the old testsment faithful saved through the testament given to the twelve tribes in the ot and the rest of the world being saved through the gospel and th e testimony of the twelve apostles of Jesus Christ as well as the witness of his disciples like Luke , James his brother ( not the apostle who was killed by Herod ) and l
Of those mentioned in e New Testament church as evangelists ministers and preachers of the gospel there were many roles they werent all apostles some were teachers like Priscilla and Aquila and barnabus and Luke

Some were pastors and leaders like Timothy and mark and some were apostles like Peter

“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬


and Paul

“Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead and all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭1:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬

That of course doesn’t mean they are all apostles but we’re all brothers in the church apostles teachers preachers evangelists Baptist’s healers ect all the gifts in the body are part of one family brothers in Christ children of God

But some we’re apostles and upon them the church is built my own opinion ( that’s all I have and claim ) is that here are twelve apostles who established the New Testament which we still have today and that’s what this is about here

“how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, ( Jesus )

and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?”( the apostles and early church )
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if you think about it brother after John died the scripture ends many people wonder why but I’d say it’s the design of God that he would speak through the apostles and send their witness of him into all the world until the end whoever believes would be saved whoever rejected it would Be damned I think it’s this way because the message can never change now what’s there is authentic and complete and true and no one can add to or take from it too many people know and have it in thier own homes and hearts

Amy own opinion about apostles is they are the foundation built upon Christ himself and we are the church sort of this dynamic the apostles an important foundational point

“Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:19-22‬ ‭

I think the apostles were meant to establish the witness in the pages of Bibles New Testament in the world

What Greek word are you talking about that means role, position or office. Is it found in Ephesians 4:11?

i was just using some flimsy excuse that has likely already been used before. i don't even know the specific Greek Word here. but, if that Greek word is defined into English, then it can mean a multitude of things.

like turning a Ladder into steps, a stairway, a scaffold, plant holder, bicycle holder, etc...no, it's a Ladder.

Precious friends, this may help solve some Confusion?:

God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided = representations of 12 and ONE!:

God’s Complete Number TWELVE represents:

TWELVE "baptismS," TWELVE tribes of Israel (As A Nation!),
TWELVE apostles who will rule in the "Prophesied" Kingdom
With CHRIST!, on TWELVE thrones on the earth!

(Genesis 49:28; Isaiah 9:7, 32:1; Matthew 19:28;
Luke 22:30; James 1:1! cp Rev 21:9-14-21)

In Addition, the Old Testament (for your review at your leisure)
has plenty of 'Twelves' for earthly Israel = wells Exo_15:27; pillars
Exo_24:4; stones Exo_28:21, 39:14; rods Num_17:2,6, etc..

Furthermore, Also compare God's Heavenly Jerusalem (the bride,
The Lamb's wife) awaiting (the New Heavens and) the descending
to The New EARTH, Which Has:

"Twelve gates, and at the gates Twelve angels, and names written
thereon, which are the names of the Twelve tribes of the children
of Israel:..."
+
...the wall of the city had Twelve foundations, and in them the names
of the Twelve apostles of the Lamb...the foundations of the wall of the
city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first...the
Twelfth, an amethyst. And the Twelve gates were Twelve pearls"
(Rev 21:9-14-21):

God's Context Of His Prophecy/Covenants/Law Program/Purpose

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

God's Other Context Of His "Revelation Of The Mystery"/ Grace Program/Purpose:

"There is ONE Body, and ONE Spirit, Even as ye are called in ONE
hope of your calling; ONE LORD, ONE Faith, ONE Baptism, ONE God
and Father of all, Who Is Above all, and through all, and In you all!”
(Ephesians 4:3-6!)

i.e.:

Paul, ONE Individual apostle, Both Roman and Hebrew, represents
Reconciliation, By GRACE, of Both Jew and Gentile, as “Individuals”

Spiritually Baptized (And "spiritually United!"), By:
ONE Baptism! (1 Corinthians 12:13 cp Ephesians 4:5!),

Into ONE Body, In Heaven!...

... [ By The Deadly, But Amazingly Wonderful Cross! ] Of Christ, The
Risen And Glorified Saviour, The ONE And Only Head Of His Church!!
(Acts 22:27-28; Philippians 3:5; 1 Corinthians 12:13)
(Ephesians 2:11-16, 4:1-6!, 5:30!)

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II).
+
RICH Blessings

No it does not. There are always twelve tribes. See Revelation 7 and Ezekiel 48.

But compare each list of tribes and count how many names of tribes there are:

1. Reuben
2. Simeon
3. Levi
4. Judah
5. Issachar
6. Zebulon
7. Gad
8. Asher
9. Dan
10. Naphtali
11. Joseph
12. Benjamin
13. Manasseh
14. Ephraim

now count how many people are called apostles in the NT.

also 14

Just FYI..

There are 91 ways to choose 12 tribes from 14 if the order we list them in doesn't matter.

There are 43,589,145,600 ways to choose 12 tribes of the 14 if we take into account the order in which they are listed.

The 12 tribes are listed 10 times in the Bible, and no two lists are the same - they are either omitting different names or ordered differently.

Genesis 35, 49, Numbers 1, 2 Deuteronomy 27, 33, 1 Chronicles 2, Ezekiel 48 (twice), Revelation 7

Yes always 12 — Joseph is in certain context replaced by 2, and in a context Judas is replaced by 2.

how you count to 12 depends on how you are counting, and if you simply ask how many are called tribes? 14 — also how many does the Bible call apostles? 14, and that is equally equal to 12.

The Bible is never simple
even counting to 12, not simple!

Hi JB,

From Acts we know that the 12 Apostles were to have walked with the Lord, witnessed of His death, resurrection and ascension. (Acts 1: 21 & 22) They were to witness to the People of Israel that Christ is the `Lord and Christ.` (Acts 1: 22 , 2: 36) These Apostles were to Israel.

Then when the Lord ascended to the Father He was made Head of the Body. He sent His Holy Spirit to build and empower His Body under His directions. (John 16: 13 & 14) The Lord then gave of Himself in 5 ministry areas - Apostle, prophet, teacher, shepherd and evangelist. (Eph. 4: 11) These ministries are to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. These Apostles (etc) are to the Body of Christ.

Apostles have a revelation of the Lord, His character and His purposes. There are a few mentioned in God`s word.

1. Paul. (Acts 14: 14)
2. Barnabus. (Acts 14: 16)
3. Andronicus. (Rom. 16: 7)
4. Junia. (Rom. 16: 7)
5. James. (the Lord`s brother) (Gal. 1: 19)
6. Apollos. (1 Cor. 3: 5, 4: 1)
7. Silvanus. (1 Thess. 1; 1, 2: 6)
8. Timothy. (1 Thess. 1: 1, 2: 6)
9. Epaphroditus. (Phil. 2: 25)
10. Titus. (Titus 1: 5)