Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?

2ndTimeIsTheCharm · Mar 8, 2023

I wonder what they'll write in their posts when that time comes to pass..

cv5 said:

You still don't get it, lol! Whoosh!

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 8, 2023

The "false claim" (Paul is talking about, in verse 2) is purporting "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [perfect indicative]"... not that it "is at hand" (as in, soon to arrive, or the like). No.

The word here is not "is at hand" (when it's a transitive verb, which it is in this Greek sentence, and when it's in the "PERFECT indicative" which it is, here). Hope that make sense. = )

Bottom line, the false claim's substance is: "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE". It wasn't, and Paul explains WHY (even repeating the SEQUENCE 3x in this passage).

"the man of sin BE REVEALED" occurs at the START of the 7-yr period (i.e. SEAL #1 / the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular; 1Th5:2-3 / Mt24:4/Mk13:5]"... same point in time as the "[shall confirm a covenant] FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]")... THAT is the START of "the DOTL" earthly-located time-period we commonly call "the Trib"... i.e. Matt24:4/Mk13:5 is WELL-PRIOR TO the MID-trib point (Matt24:15)...

... so this is WELL-BEFORE he will "SIT" in the temple of God 2Th2:4b... (which occurs at MID-trib, same time-slot as when the AOD takes place--Matt24:15/Dan12:11, and Dan9:27b "in the midst of the Week").

I couldn't tell from your post which way you were suggesting... my apologies.

Hope my post serves to clarify how I'm seeing the text. = )

["the day of the Lord" (JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth over SOME TIME) doesn't COMMENCE at Christ's Second Coming to the earth; it COMMENCES at SEAL #1 / at the START of "the [7-yr] tribulation period" (commonly-called), once "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" takes place...; IOW, the VERTICAL thing FIRST, then that horizontal time-period, with its "man of sin" ('revealed' at THAT POINT) can commence to unfold upon the earth (aka "the day of the Lord")]

MessengerofTruth · Mar 8, 2023

cv5 said:

Don't let that hold you back from intensive long-term studies of what he is saying.
I have learned more from him and more in depth (like deeeeeep down there) and more quickly than in decades and decades of my earlier pilgrimage. And I was always a prophecy nut who was always pretrib premillennial.

Now having the benefit of the diligent study of his work, to say that I am firmly entrenched as a pretrib premillennial is the understatement of the century.

BTW......an ancillary benefit is that you will be able to uttely quash the pretensions of the a-mills, post-mills, preterists and historicists. All of whom are absolutely dead wrong.

I see too much lining up with what the LORD has showed and told me over the years.

I may take a look at it but, I won't make any promises.

Gojira · Mar 8, 2023

Lori said:

I do a lot of pondering about end times and what it’ll look like for the believer. No one in my church wants to talk about it, so I thought I’d bring it here.

I have heard a few theologians proclaim that a pre-trib rapture is false doctrine, and a “lie from the pit of hell”.

I’m a pre-tribber married to a post tribber, and frankly, his arguments for a post tribulational rapture don’t hold water as far as I’m concerned. Perhaps a post-tribber from this forum can make me understand.

I have an open mind. Mostly because I fully expected the rapture to happen last year. The numbers just made sense. 2021 was 73 years since Israel became a nation, leaving 7 years for the tribulation culminating in the 80-year-old-generation mentioned in Psalms.

Regardless, God is angry, and He’s about to punish the entire planet, and I’m persuaded that ours is the generation that will see these things come to pass. With a possible (probable?) WWIII scenario, and end time prophecies jumping off the pages of the Bible, I am fascinated, excited, and a little nervous. I would love to read the thoughts of any post-tribbers on what you think it will look like for believers to go through the tribulation (specifically, the 7 trumpets, seals and bowls of The Revelation.)

Do post-tribbers believe that as God’s elect, we are subject to the same wrath as everyone else? For instance, at some point the earth will be bombarded with 75 lb hailstones (Rev 16:21). Are we subject to God’s wrath in that we will be crushed along with everyone else? Or will they not effect us? When those crazy looking locusts are tormenting the population, are we to be supernaturally protected from them?

If you’re a post-tribber (or even a non-tribber) convince me that I’m wrong. I wouldn’t want to believe God for something that’s never going to happen based on misinterpreted scripture.

Anybody?

I am a post-tribber. But, I am not prepared to lay out the case, at least not at this time. There's only so much time in the day.

Gojira · Mar 8, 2023

Beckie said:

I do not believe in rapture as most folks here do. I do believe our Lord will return. Your sentence about the numbers make me smile. I was only 2 in 1948 but i well remember about 7 years later hearing my parents ( dad a pentecostal pastor ) talk of rapture any time . then again 40 years about 1988 the talk was rapture because of the generation thing. When that did not happen then generation became 80 years.

Somewhere along the line of life i started doubting what i had been taught. Not doubting the Word of God but how some folks explained it. I believe the Olivet Discourse was God prophesying the destruction of Jerusalem about 70 ad. In reading Scripture seems God always warned the Israelites of what was coming.

Good post.

GaryA · Mar 9, 2023

Lori said:

It is indeed a fabrication that is not biblical in the slightest.

Lori said:

Perhaps; however, you must be willing to consider that what you have been taught is in error - and, be willing to "push it aside" / "put it on hold" / etc. while you very carefully consider what the Bible really actually does-and-does-not say.

Lori said:

You must be willing to "step back" and see eschatology from God's perspective. The idea that all of eschatological prophecy occurs in a short span of time (i.e. - 7 years) - past or future - is not biblical. Revelation prophecy - and that of the Olivet Discourse - is spread out over a span of ~2000 years. It is not a short period of time. Some of it has already come to pass; other parts of it are yet future.

There is no 7-year 'prophetic' End Times period. The idea for it comes from the severe misinterpretation of Daniel 9:24-27. (More on that later.)

There is a 3.5-year 'prophetic' End Times period. We call it the Two Witnesses. It coincides with the 'trumpet' events. (More on that later.)

Lori said:

The first thing you must do (with regard to what you said here) is learn to define things in the Bible strictly based on what the Bible says and not listen to the definitions of men that are based on what they want the Bible to say instead of what it actually says.

Only the 'vials' are the 'Wrath of God'; the 'seals' and 'trumpets' are not included in that definition/description.

The rapture is post-trib but pre-wrath. If you are born-again, you need not worry about experiencing any of the 'Wrath of God'.

Feel free to take a look at the End Times prophecy pages in the 'Study' section of mywebsite.us - they will give you an overview.

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 9, 2023

Joelightening said:

I agree that places like Wiki (any website really) can "change their info" whenever and for whatever reason... but also, Wiki doesn't always necessarily have "all the information" on any given Subject, either. = )

Consider the following, which (for example) provides a certain piece of info that pertains to a time-frame of about a hundred years BEFORE Darby [not that this matters in the overall scheme of things, mind you...]:

[quoting from old post]

https://www.pre-trib.org/articles/r...llowing-titles-millennium-last-novelties/read

"Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties" - Morgan Edwards (1700s)

Morgan Edwards first published these in 1744, and then published it again in 1788...

...the below quoted texts are excerpted from pages 7, 21, 24, 25 (note: the site says the spelling of Edwards has been modernized)... not exactly how we describe "pre-trib" today, but certainly he is *distinguishing* the point-in-time of "our episynagoges unto Him," and His Second Coming to the earth/the MANIFESTATION of His presence-parousia/OPENLY MANIFEST (as we "pre-tribbers" also see *distinguished* in Scripture):

[quoting Morgan Edwards from link]

[pg 7]
"II. The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years.
"I say, somewhat more; because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's "appearing in the air" (1 Thes. iv, 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many "mansions in the father's house of God" (John xiv: 2), and to disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for "now the time is come that judgment must begin," and that will be at the house of God" (1 Pet. iv. 17). . ."

[pg 21]
"5. Another event previous to the Millennium will be the appearing of the son of man in the clouds, coming to raise the dead saints and change the living, and to catch them up to himself, and then withdrawing with them, and observed before, This event will come to pass when Antichrist be arrived at Jerusalem in his conquest of the world; and about three years and a half before his killing the witnesses, and assumption of godhead. . . . "

[pg 24]
"8.The last event, and the event that will usher in the millennium, will be, the coming of Christ from paradise to earth, with all the saints he had taken up thither (about three years and a half before. . . ."

[pg 25]
"Millions and millions of saints will have been on earth from the days of the first Adam, to the coming of the second Adam. All these will Christ bring with him. The place where they will alight is the "mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east." Zech. Xiv, 4."

[end quoting from article at link; underline mine]

[end of old post]

____________

Something to think about... when one hears/reads those who suggest that Darby was the first to DISTINGUISH between the time-slot of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" and the time-slot of His Second Coming to the earth (when at that point WE will, as it states in Col3:4, "appear WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] HIM in glory" !)

BreatheFocusBet · Mar 9, 2023

I think it is important, here, to note that God can protect in these ways

Exodus 9
25Throughout the land of Egypt, the hail struck down everything in the field, both man and beast; it beat down every plant of the field and stripped every tree. 26The only place where it did not hail was in the land of Goshen, where the Israelites lived.

Psalm 91
5You will not fear the terror of the night,

nor the arrow that flies by day,

6nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness,

nor the calamity that destroys at noon.

7Though a thousand may fall at your side,

and ten thousand at your right hand,

no harm will come near you.

8You will only see it with your eyes

and witness the punishment of the wicked.

Daniel 3
26Then Nebuchadnezzar approached the door of the blazing fiery furnace and called out, “Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, servants of the Most High God, come out!”

So Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego came out of the fire, 27and when the satraps, prefects, governors, and royal advisers had gathered around, they saw that the fire had no effect on the bodies of these men. Not a hair of their heads was singed, their robes were unaffected, and there was no smell of fire on them.

Also, this event

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

seems to be talking about the same event here, imo

1 Corinthians 15:52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

If so, one question that may arise is what are in the previous Trumpets?
If they are the same Trumpets in Revelation 8-11, then there are presumably some catastrophic things

Revelation 8
7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.

8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil, and many people died from the bitter waters.

12Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun and moon and stars were struck. A third of the stars were darkened, a third of the day was without light, and a third of the night as well.

Revelation 9
1Then the fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to earth, and it was given the key to the pit of the Abyss. 2The star opened the pit of the Abyss, and smoke rose out of it like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke from the pit.

3And out of the smoke, locusts descended on the earth, and they were given power like that of the scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

10They had tails with stingers like scorpions, which had the power to injure people for five months. 11They were ruled by a king, the angel of the Abyss. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek it is Apollyon.

13Then the sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God 14saying to the sixth angel with the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”

15So the four angels who had been prepared for this hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16And the number of mounted troops was two hundred million; I heard their number.

18A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke, and sulfur that proceeded from their mouths.

Revelation 11
3And I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

15Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven:

“The kingdom of the world

has become the kingdom of our Lord

and of His Christ,

and He will reign forever and ever.”

1 Corinthians 15
52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

I apologize in advance if there are any errors. Believe The Holy Bible over any errors that I make.

Joelightening · Mar 9, 2023

My last word on this subject is to warn all about seducing spirits in these last days. In 1st Timothy 4: 1-2, Paul warns about seducing or deceptive spirits. We will encounter them in our daily life, including on the internet. They work at Christian web sites and have seduced many. They can be encountered on or off line. Such has been a problem since the early days of the Church. There is nothing in the scriptures about a pre trib rapture. Do not be deceived.

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 9, 2023

Joelightening said:

Sorry, I missed responding to your post, here.

What I had meant was, that some, by [mis-]defining "the day of the Lord" as [commencing at] "His Second Coming [Rev19]"... and by relocating the word "FIRST" in verse 3 to the second clause (instead of where it IS, in the first clause), they can then make the passage to be conveying:

"His Second Coming [Rev19--and thus our Rapture, per their view] will not happen until _____ and the man of sin be revealed FIRST..." ...

... which is not what the passage is conveying, here.

Hope that helps clarify what I had been covering in that post you had asked me about. = )

My apologies for the delayed response.

Ruby123 · Mar 9, 2023

@TheDivineWatermark do you believe that the rapture will occur at the beginning of a schmeta? (unsure of it's spelling)

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 9, 2023

For old times' sake (and for the benefit of the readers of this current thread), here's a post I'd made some time back... related to the word (in v.3) discussed earlier in this latest part of this thread:

[quoting old post]

On a slightly different but related note

... it is my understanding that Josephus apparently used the word "apostasis" (the older form of the word) in his "Antiquities" Book 16...

"ις. Ἀπόστασις τῶν τὸν Τράχωνα οἰκούντων καὶ παράληψις διὰ τῶν στρατηγῶν τῆς χώρας."

-- http://remacle.org/bloodwolf/historiens/Flajose/juda16gr.htm [16th entry down, following (not counting) the words in bold]

I cannot say for certain what the sentence says (since I'm not fluent in Greek)...

...but it is my understanding (and I could be mistaken), that this is where some of the LISTED SOURCES (in some of L&S's older editions of their lexicon, or another) refer to the word [entry; usage] as "DISTANCE" (perhaps in another lexicon, if I recall correctly...).

[end quoting]

--Post #73 (different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/the-falling-away-pre-trib-rapture-or.201577/post-4663115

____________

Again, in Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon (1871, if memory serves), it supplies under the entry for "apostasia" - "LATER FORM FOR apostasis" ( ^ ) ... Then look under THAT word... you'll see listed there "departure" etc... ("apo" [away from] and "stasis" [a standing])

[then I also suggest one examine the 9x the word "stasin / stasis" is used, and particularly note how the NINTH one means something distinct from the previous 8x... and in what verse/context THAT one is used... "...which is A PARABLE for the present time," the verse states]

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 9, 2023

Here's what I'd put in Post #34 of that same thread:

[quoting old post]

Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon (1845 [1846??]) -

Pages 190 - 191 (pg 191 [right-hand side] middle column)

... for apostasia - "later form for apostasis";

... and for apostasis - "a standing away from, and so-- [...] 2. departure or removal from"

-- https://archive.org/details/greekenglishlexi00lidduoft/page/190/mode/2up

[apo stasis]

[re: 2Th2:3... CONTEXT determines just "WHAT KIND" of departure is meant; Here in THIS CONTEXT, it is not "a departure FROM MOSES" as is meant in its Acts 21:21 occurrence]

[end quoting old post]

--Post #34 (same thread as in previous post / link) - https://christianchat.com/threads/the-falling-away-pre-trib-rapture-or.201577/post-4662066

____________

[P.S. My hard copy is, if I recall, the 1871 edition... says same in that one]

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 9, 2023

Ruby123 said:

Thanks for asking, Ruby123... I hope you don't mind if I get back to this question a little later (like, late evening... possibly), as I would like to be able to type up a few points, and maybe that will aid you in [the answer to this Q]...

Thanks! = )

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 9, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

... and just a quick point to add to the above ^ ...

See also Georg Benedikt Winer (1789-1858), on Page 24 [under "(d)" toward bottom of page] and continued on Page 25 [7th line, where "apostasia (apostasis...)" are listed also, under this point):

-- A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament Greek: Regarded as a Sure Basis ... - Georg Benedikt Winer - Google Books

MessengerofTruth · Mar 9, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

I agree that places like Wiki (any website really) can "change their info" whenever and for whatever reason... but also, Wiki doesn't always necessarily have "all the information" on any given Subject, either. = )

Consider the following, which (for example) provides a certain piece of info that pertains to a time-frame of about a hundred years BEFORE Darby [not that this matters in the overall scheme of things, mind you...]:

[quoting from old post]

https://www.pre-trib.org/articles/r...llowing-titles-millennium-last-novelties/read

"Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties" - Morgan Edwards (1700s)

Morgan Edwards first published these in 1744, and then published it again in 1788...

...the below quoted texts are excerpted from pages 7, 21, 24, 25 (note: the site says the spelling of Edwards has been modernized)... not exactly how we describe "pre-trib" today, but certainly he is *distinguishing* the point-in-time of "our episynagoges unto Him," and His Second Coming to the earth/the MANIFESTATION of His presence-parousia/OPENLY MANIFEST (as we "pre-tribbers" also see *distinguished* in Scripture):

[quoting Morgan Edwards from link]

[pg 7]
"II. The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years.
"I say, somewhat more; because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's "appearing in the air" (1 Thes. iv, 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many "mansions in the father's house of God" (John xiv: 2), and to disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for "now the time is come that judgment must begin," and that will be at the house of God" (1 Pet. iv. 17). . ."

[pg 21]
"5. Another event previous to the Millennium will be the appearing of the son of man in the clouds, coming to raise the dead saints and change the living, and to catch them up to himself, and then withdrawing with them, and observed before, This event will come to pass when Antichrist be arrived at Jerusalem in his conquest of the world; and about three years and a half before his killing the witnesses, and assumption of godhead. . . . "

[pg 24]
"8.The last event, and the event that will usher in the millennium, will be, the coming of Christ from paradise to earth, with all the saints he had taken up thither (about three years and a half before. . . ."

[pg 25]
"Millions and millions of saints will have been on earth from the days of the first Adam, to the coming of the second Adam. All these will Christ bring with him. The place where they will alight is the "mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east." Zech. Xiv, 4."

[end quoting from article at link; underline mine]

[end of old post]

____________

Something to think about... when one hears/reads those who suggest that Darby was the first to DISTINGUISH between the time-slot of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" and the time-slot of His Second Coming to the earth (when at that point WE will, as it states in Col3:4, "appear WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] HIM in glory" !)

I would have serious concern that a Jesuit priest espoused those views, and so come lately.

I have spoken to Christians from the "back woods" that could not afford a seminary preacher or a Scofield bible that had not even heard that Christians would not be going through the tribulation, citing the same concepts and passages that the LORD led me out of the pre-trib camp.

I notice that the above must be taken on trust in that man's perspective as I do not see much scripture references. This always concerns me.

Evmur · Mar 9, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

In your wording here ^ , you've completely skipped over / by-passed verse 2, which is Paul telling about "the false claim" he doesn't want the Thessalonians to be "shaken in mind" and "troubled" by as though it were true;

and that "false claim" is: [anyone] "[purporting] that the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]". (It wasn't, and Paul explains WHY it cannot be so.)

That's the Subject v.3a starts out with, where it says "that day" (i.e. v.2's false claim's Subject, NOT v.1's Subject PAUL is bringing TO CORRECT the "false claim" of v.2).

Many people, when viewing the word "that day" (v.3a), reach back OVER AND PAST Verse 2's FALSE CLAIM ("that the day of the Lord is present"), ignoring that, to grab VERSE 1's Subject (about Jesus, and "our episynagoes unto Him," etc)... as you've done here by leaving verse 2 out entirely from your "example sentence" (i.e. "it would say THIS, which makes NO SENSE")...
Of course what you've put makes no sense[!]... but what you've put also (hate to say it) butchers the text, and is not at all reflective of the actual wording supplied in the text. You're leaving OUT a very vital piece of the text (verse 2!), as you have it written, above.

[another major assumption (tho incorrect) is that "the day of the Lord" (v.2--the Subject of the "false claim") here MEANS "Christ's Second Coming"... but Paul's words in 1Thess5:1-3 PROVE that "the day of the Lord" its ARRIVAL commences WELL-PRIOR to that point (tho it also goes on to INCLUDE the entire MK age, but the "false claim" of 2Th2:2 is speaking of the earliest parts of it [the parts consisting of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth over SOME TIME], not the latter parts of it [the "BLESSINGs"/MK part]...)]

You are right, Paul had been talking about a confusion, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our going to meet Him in the clouds ....

The Rapture

That day will not come.

Nelson Darby talked alot of rubbish about this, he claimed that whenever "that day" was mentioned it must always mean the day of judgement.

... but it is not so, you can check it out for yourself.

Darby deliberately changed words and meanings to teach the lie of pretribulation rapture.

cv5 · Mar 9, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

Mighty fine scholarship TDW. We are in your debt once again.

cv5 · Mar 9, 2023

Evmur said:

Is @TheDivineWatermark quoting Darby? Nope. He is quoting the Bible and sources not at all related to Darby.

Evmur · Mar 9, 2023

cv5 said:

The day of Christ is not the day of the Lord which comes after the 1, 000 years

The day of Christ is the coming of Christ in the clouds and our going to meet Him, that is exactly what Paul is talking about.

He does begin one topic and mid-sentence bounce on to an entirely different subject and then just as suddenly bounce back.

This is all part of John Nelson Darby's deceit, he knew what he was doing. Every British theologian rejected it ... so he took it to America.

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