I want to understand the Catholic faith so....

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epostle

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KenAllen, your lies have already been exposed, yet you continue lying. I like our ignore feature.
 

epostle

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Oct 24, 2015
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Some points to ponder:
=>Are all who are favored sinless?
Many men of God, including Noah found favor in the eyes of God.
In verse Luke 1:43, Elizabeth considered herself to be favored.
In Luke 1:28, Mary was said to be "highly favored."

Nobody else was given the title "Full of Grace" or "highly favored"
The great Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson exhibits a Protestant perspective, but is objective and fair-minded, in commenting on this verse as follows:
"Highly favoured" (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast received'; wrong, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow'" (Plummer).

(Robertson, II, 13)​
Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, "grace"). Thus, in the KJV, charis is translated "grace" 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as "full of grace" and that the literal meaning was "endued with grace" (Vincent, I, 259).

Likewise, well-known Protestant linguist W.E. Vine, defines it as "to endue with Divine favour or grace" (Vine, II, 171). All these men (except Wycliffe, who probably would have been, had he lived in the 16th century or after it) are Protestants, and so cannot be accused of Catholic translation bias. Even a severe critic of Catholicism like James White can’t avoid the fact that kecharitomene (however translated) cannot be divorced from the notion of grace, and stated that the term referred to "divine favor, that is, God’s grace" (White, 201).

Of course, Catholics agree that Mary has received grace. This is assumed in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception: it was a grace from God which could not possibly have had anything to do with Mary's personal merit, since it was granted by God at the moment of her conception, to preserve her from original sin (as appropriate for the one who would bear God Incarnate in her very body).

The Catholic argument hinges upon the meaning of kecharitomene. For Mary this signifies astate granted to her, in which she enjoys an extraordinary fullness of grace. Charis often refers to a power or ability which God grants in order to overcome sin (and this is how we interpret Luke 1:28). This sense is a biblical one, as Greek scholar Gerhard Kittel points out:
Grace is the basis of justification and is also manifested in it ([Rom.] 5:20-21). Hence grace is in some sense a state (5:2), although one is always called into it (Gal. 1:6), and it is always a gift on which one has no claim. Grace is sufficient (1 Cor. 1:29) . . . The work of grace in overcoming sin displays its power (Rom. 5:20-21) . . .

(Kittel, 1304-1305)​
Protestant linguist W.E. Vine concurs that charis can mean "a state of grace, e.g., Rom. 5:2; 1 Pet. 5:12; 2 Pet. 3:18" (Vine, II, 170). One can construct a strong biblical argument from analogy, for Mary's sinlessness. For St. Paul, grace (charis) is the antithesis and "conqueror" of sin (emphases added in the following verses):see more here

=>Does grace make one sinless?
Grace as mentioned in Titus 2:12, motivates the redeemed sinner(believer)to say "No" to sin, as they wait for Christ's return.
Titus 2:12 says nothing about redeemed sinner being full of grace (kecharitomene) FULL of grace means more than just grace.
=>Are Jesus and Mary equals? Who is greater? Who should be given priority?
In Luke1: 31-33 Jesus (capital J) is given the position of deity by the angel.
In v 38 Mary considered herself to be the handmaiden(servant) of the Lord.
Guess who is the Lord of Lords!
In Luke 1:48, Mary considered herself to be a humble servant whom God noticed.
Agreed, but you are operating under a false priority assumption. God is the focus of the Mass, and you will have to listen very closely for Mary's name, it's mentioned once in the creed (the same as in any Protestant church that accepts creeds) and once in the intercessory prayers. Check out a Mass sometime and see for yourself. All this Mary Mary Mary from anti-Catholics gets a bit tiresome.

=>Who needs a saviour?
Is there even a single verse in the Bible where Jesus said, "my Savior?"
No! Because Jesus was sinless.
In Luke 1:47, Mary uses the words, "my Savior." (capital S)

Fine. Show me in scripture when Mary got saved, since salvation dates are so important to many of you. Did the angel Gabriel say, "POOF! you are now full of grace"? Of course Mary needed a savior, we don't pretend she is Full of Grace on her own merits. The angel said, "...the Lord IS with you..." he didn't say, "the Lord will be with you" so when was the Lord with her??? You won't find either in scripture, you have to use the brains that God gave you, and He expects you to use them.

=>Did Jesus' family (mother and brothers) understand his ministry initially?
Did Jesus understand his own ministry?

[SUP]20[/SUP]Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat.[SUP]21[/SUP]When his family 2 heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."[Mark 3:20]

This verse has nothing to do with Mary's role in God's plan of salvation.

=>Did Jesus give Mary an exalted position?
[SUP]31[/SUP]Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him.[SUP]32[/SUP]A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."[SUP]33[/SUP]"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked.[SUP]34[/SUP]Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers![SUP]35[/SUP]Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."[Mark 3:31-35]

Yes, Mary is the perfect model of faith, she did the will of God. God incarnate entered her womb because of it. Jesus is using her, and anybody else who does the will of God, is his mother, brother and sister. It's part of Catholic Mariology that you can't seem to grasp. Now the only thing left for you to do is argue that Mary did not do the will of God.

[SUP]27[/SUP]As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you."[SUP]28[/SUP]
He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."[Luke 11:27]

We see clearly that the Lord gave the Word of God priority over the person of Mary and above the belief of Mary, as the mother of God.
You don't see Mary doing the will of God and Jesus using her as an example for all of us?? Or is Jesus denigrating his mother in public thus violating the 4th commandment? Pick one.
 
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sydlit

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KenAllen, your lies have already been exposed, yet you continue lying. I like our ignore feature.
You owe magenta an apology, but i suspect you're too yellow to man up. Using the ignore feature is a clear sign of your cowardice. You know, jack, if you truly came to faith and salvation in Jesus, He'd give you a new set ...........of eyes to see the error of your ways, and the grace and spine to admit that what you said to magenta was just flat out wrong, and you'd apologize to her. But maybe you're just an example of your religions teaching,---> insult women, excercise dominion over them, then ignore them.<--- Another example that the rc church teaches the opposite of Jesus. Maybe these things i hear about the rc teaching being ANTI-Christ actually have some weight. Don't know whether to be sad or mad....guess im a little bit of both.
 

Blain

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Aug 28, 2012
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Epostle I have seen your remarks and your crude responses and I'd say you've done enough, if you recall the fruit of a true believer is love and I have seen none of that from you and I am not going to allow you to continue to say hurtful things to my friends, so I have to ask you to leave this thread because it's clear you are not capable of debating without lashing out
 

epostle

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Oct 24, 2015
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Ok. I'm sorry I have little patience for slander, misrepresentations, lies, hate, etc. etc. There is nothing "Christian" about some of the posts in here. Guess what. Catholics are human beings, and we are more often than not, not treated like one. I can refute most of the garbage but what really drives you bonkers is you have no rebuttal to my posts, just more psychotic ranting. If you don't like my posts put me on ignore and stop crying about them.
 

Blain

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Ok. I'm sorry I have little patience for slander, misrepresentations, lies, hate, etc. etc. There is nothing "Christian" about some of the posts in here. Guess what. Catholics are human beings, and we are more often than not, not treated like one. I can refute most of the garbage but what really drives you bonkers is you have no rebuttal to my posts, just more psychotic ranting. If you don't like my posts put me on ignore and stop crying about them.
Arrogance is a deadly poison my friend. I wouldn't have a problem with you debating if you were able to do so in a Christ like and mature manner but you have not done so and this is my thread and I won't have you behaving like you have.

I could care less about you trying to prove yourself right but if one cannot debate in a Christ like loving and mature manner then should they be debating at all? if we allow our personal feelings to influence our words then it causes war but if we allow the holy spirit to influence our words then a soul can be saved and a frozen cold heart can be melted. So then, which will you choose?
 

epostle

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Oct 24, 2015
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I joined a Catholic forum to better understand their faith and their ways. Now I have heard many Christians say the Catholic faith is heresy and that they are pagan and not saved but I am not one to believe everything I hear I have to find out for myself. So I made my first thread and asked certain questions that is mainly asked about the Catholics like about praying to mary and why they need a pope and such and I got the normal answers that I expected but I also asked said this, for a Christian love is the mark of a true believer, to be love above all else to know love to see out of love and I also mentioned that just as important for the believer is the intimate love and relationship between God and us and I asked them if this was also true for the Catholics.

Based on what I have heard from fellow Christians I half expected them to not really agree but sort of say it's but add something to kind fit their own views but instead they excitedly agreed I saw a real passion for God in them.
Now I don't much about the Catholic faith but I intend to find out and then I will judge for myself if Catholics are heresy or not with God's help of course.
Now THAT is a reasonable post. I could discuss with you in a mature and loving manner all day. What if someone were to open a thread about your faith tradition and have it continuously bombarded with lies and insults? How would you expect anyone to understand your faith under such conditions? How would you react? With righteous indignation, I would expect. You opened up a can of worms. I hope you spend a little more time on a good Catholic forum and ask lots of questions. Which one were you on, if I may ask?
 
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Have you epostle read about how Pope John Paul II gave all credit to Mary for his surviving a gunshot? He thanked Mary, not God.

You have been deceived by the Catholic Church epostle into listening to their lies from Satan.

I have no need for the teachings of the Catholic Church. I do not accept any teachings from the Catholic Church because its the Holy Spirit who teaches us all the Truths.

Psalm 25:5
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Lead me in Your truth and teach me, For You are the God of my salvation; On You I wait all the day.

Psalm 33:4
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For the word of the LORD is right, And all His work is done in truth.
Psalm 43:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Oh, send out Your light and Your truth! Let them lead me; Let them bring me to Your holy hill And to Your tabernacle.

Psalm 86:11
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Teach me Your way, O LORD; I will walk in Your truth; Unite my heart to fear Your name.

John 1:17
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

John 14:6
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Ephesians 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Everywhere in the Scriptures God says the Truth comes from Him. I have yet to see in the Scriptures where God says the Truth comes from the Catholic Church.


Only the Scriptures have the Truth. There are no Truths in the Catholic Church. Its to God we look for the Truth. Its the Scriptures which has ALL the Truths. And its the Catholic Church who deceive people into rejecting the Truth from God to follow their lies.


Salvation is only in Jesus, not the Catholic Church. Eternal life in Heaven is from God, not the Catholic Church. Salvation is a free Gift, not by Works like the Catholics teach.

You Catholics can leave the Catholic Church and still enter into Heaven! Salvation is not based on membership in the Catholic Church. Join the rest of us who have walked away from the Catholic Church to find our Salvation in Jesus.
 

onlinebuddy

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Sep 1, 2012
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Scripture compares Mary to the Ark (Lk 1:35 & Ex 40:34-8 / Lk 1:44 & 2 Sam 6:14-16 / Lk 1:43 & 2 Sam 6:9). If mere inanimate objects can be so "holy" due to proximity with God, how much more so Mary, who bore God?
Epostle, You wrote that scripture compares Mary to the Ark. I have studied the verses you have provided. I do not see even a faintest comparison between the Ark and Mary, as I have stated below:

Lk 1:35- When Mary questioned the angel how it was possible for her to bear a son, since she was still a virgin, the angel told her that the Holy Spirit would come on her and make this possible. There is no mention of the Ark of the Covenant here. This verse is being used out of context to show the Mary-Ark connection.
Ex 40:34-38 The cloud of the Lord covered the tabernacle. No mention of Mary here. This verse is being used out of context to show the Mary-Ark connection.
Lk 1:44 Elizabeth’s baby leaps in her womb at the sound of Mary’s greeting. No mention of the Ark of the Covenant here.
2 Sam 6:14-16 These verses are talking about David dancing as the Ark of Covenant be brought to his city, and his wife Michal is angered by David's dancing. No mention of Mary here.
2 Sam 6:9 This verse talks about how David was afraid of the Ark because Uzzah who touched the ark was struck by God. No mention of Mary here.
Luke 1:43 This verse is about how Elizabeth considered herself to be favored, since Mary had visited her. No connection to the Ark of the Covenant.


 

onlinebuddy

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Sep 1, 2012
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There has to be some kind of beginning point on understanding the BIBLICAL Mary. You have to go to the Old Testament for prophecy and more importantly, typology. Otherwise, we go in circles and get nowhere.
Epostle,The gospel is plain and clear and complete. Even a child can understand it. The Biblical Jesus can be easily understood by even a child. Jesus is all that is required for salvation; not Mary.
The biblical Mary also can be understood by a child.
No need to get into prophecy, typology and symbolism. Please do not complicate things. I tried to point out the Biblical Mary to you in my posts #625 and #634. So please do not shroud Mary in mystery. This is the typical catholic way of confusing the pure-hearted catholic laity.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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The Scriptures point to Jesus, they point to Mary.
 

Blain

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Aug 28, 2012
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Now THAT is a reasonable post. I could discuss with you in a mature and loving manner all day. What if someone were to open a thread about your faith tradition and have it continuously bombarded with lies and insults? How would you expect anyone to understand your faith under such conditions? How would you react? With righteous indignation, I would expect. You opened up a can of worms. I hope you spend a little more time on a good Catholic forum and ask lots of questions. Which one were you on, if I may ask?
If they want to slander my faith so be it I will still respond in love, if they refuse to hear me out to understand my faith then so be it I will still respond in love, you have to understand I have been under severe attacks because of my faith insults names and scriptures were hurled at me mercilessly I was condemned I was seen as trash as scum I was mocked and if we were in person these ppl likely would have beaten me.

I have been through the harshest ppl had to throw at me but when I became a Christian I swore I would be love above all else no matter the cost, I knew that if I sought such a love with God for God and for all others the cost could be great I very well might suffer greatly and intensely for his sake and for all others but I didn't care I accepted the cost because I knew that God is Love and I refused to be the average believer I refused to be anything less than love. And so I accepted all these attacks and yes I hurt very badly inside but I meant what I said when I swore I would be love above all else and God honored my oath to him and has strengthened me and has filled my heart with his love so that even in such a attacks I can respond in love.
 
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The Catholic Church teaches that Mary was blessed above everybody. The Scriptures says i am more blessed than Mary.

Luke 11:27-28
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!"
[SUP]28 [/SUP] But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

According to the Scriptures which are from God, we who hear the Word of God and keep it are more blessed than Mary.

So why epostle do you Worship and follow Mary as your god?
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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What if someone were to open a thread about your faith tradition and have it continuously bombarded with lies and insults?
Which of the following is a lie?

God several times throughout Scripture says He will not share His glory.

Catholics glorify, venerate, and adore Mary.

Jesus did not once in Scripture address Mary as His mother.

Catholics call Mary the mother of humanity and the queen of heaven.

Jesus said that anyone who did the will of God was His mother, His brother, His sister.

Jesus never elevated Mary above others.

Catholics elevate Mary above others, and put her on a par with Jesus in terms of His sinlessness.

They are forced by so-called infallible papal decree to accept the Marian dogmas of her bodily assumption and immaculate conception, neither of which have any basis whatsoever in Scripture.

Jesus told us to pray to our Father in heaven.

Catholics pray to Mary despite what Jesus explicitly instructed.

Scripture clearly states that there is one intercessor between God and man

Catholics promote Mary as an intercessor, and other dead people as well.

Within Catholicism, there is a drive to define a new Marian dogma in which Catholics, as a matter of faith, would be obliged to accept: 1) Mary participates in redemption with Jesus Christ; 2) grace is granted by Jesus only through the intercession of Mary; and 3) all prayers from the faithful must flow through Mary, who brings them to the attention of her Son.

Scripture tells us not to call anyone Father but God.

Catholics call many men "father."

Catholics believe that a fallible man is the Rock that Jesus is building His Church on.

Scripture attests to a plethora of Scriptures affirming God as the Rock of our salvation.

By any sane way of reckoning, those are ALL true
statements. Why are you insulted by the truth?
 

notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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Does anyone agree with notuptome we do not need God's grace to live a holy life, free from sin or
To be "full of" God's grace can be co-existent with sin."

Please explain using relevant scriptures with a few verses in context.

What's really going on here, Gary, is that you have tripped over on your own fence. You are at odds with what is commonly accepted by a majority of Christians.
Actually that is not what I said. Your false contention of "full of grace" making or causing Mary to be sinless is the false doctrine.

The blood of Christ atones for our sin. The Holy Spirit seals us unto the day of redemption but until we are glorified together with Christ and receive a new body like unto His resurrected body we will sin.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

John is speaking to believers here in this epistle so read the entire context to verify that I'm not proof texting.

I read your profile and you claim to be saved by your baptism. Classic Romanism at it's devilish worst. Water baptism is not grace nor are any of the sacraments means of grace.

Grace is unmerited pity of God toward His creation that is hopelessly lost in sin. We cannot save ourselves nor can we merit salvation.

Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

onlinebuddy

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Sep 1, 2012
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In the quoted link (article), the writer has removed Jesus, and put Mary in his place. Heretical!
This is an excerpt from the article:
And I will establish a feud between thee and the woman, between thy offspring and hers; she is to crush thy head, while thou dost lie in ambush at her heels (Genesis 3:15, Knox)


Now, scholars argue about whether or not the pronoun is masculine or feminine in the sentence, “She is to crush thy head”—that is, whether it refers to the Virgin Mary or Jesus Christ. But I’m going to let you in on a little secret: it doesn’t matter. You see, Jesus is going to crush Satan through Mary. She is the instrument Jesus is going to wield when he destroys his ancient enemy.
This is a misinterpretation of scripture.
it doesn’t matter.
Off course it matters whether that verse refers to Mary or Jesus. It does not matter to catholic doctrine fabricators, because they know it is a lie. Tell me how satan bruised Mary's heel and I will tell you how he bruised Jesus' heel.
She is the instrument Jesus is going to wield when he destroys his ancient enemy.
Why didn't Jesus mention this in his important teachings? No verse in the Bible is even faintly implying that Jesus will use Mary to destroy Satan. Can you show me Mary's role in the end time prophecy? I can show you Jesus' role.

Satan hates being defeated by Mary: She is his replacement in heaven.

Furthermore, the article claims that "Mary is the replacement for Lucifer in heaven." Scripture does not say this at all. The writer claims that the Magnificat [Lk 1:46-55] says this. What a lie! In the Magnificat, Mary is all praises for God. This article misinterprets the words of Mary.

On the whole the article belittles Jesus and exalts Mary!
The average catholic does not know his bible, and is easily fooled by all this.
The one who knows the Bible, knows the innumerable warnings of such heretical teachings in the last days.
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
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The Scriptures point to Jesus, they point to Mary.
The more I read catholic teachings, the more it becomes evident that they are bent on replacing Jesus with Mary. This is done is such a subtle way that the average catholic does not suspect anything.
 

PennEd

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Apr 22, 2013
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Okay...a couple of responses:
1. I wasn't evading any of your questions. I understood that you were asking me something like this "In the face of very objectionable theological ideas, how is it that you can still remain Roman Catholic?" So, I assumed that you wanted me to address the reasons why I was in the RCC as opposed to addressing the various objectionable theological ideas that you mentioned.

2. There is no way that I have enough room in one post to address the three theological concepts you've mentioned. Namely, The Sacrament of Reconciliation, the concept of purgatory, and the fellowship of all believers (which is inappropriately referred to as "prayer to the saints"). Also, there are plenty of online resources available that would address these concepts from a Catholic perspective (that is, it would give you the RCC scriptures and interpretation instead of some presumption of what is believed and practiced). The Vatican website is a great place to start if you have curiosity. Additionally, the site is vetted, so you know it's not Joe Schmoe's view of the RCC.

3. I think we are not seeing eye-to-eye on our understanding of orthodoxy. Orthodoxy means "right belief." Historically, it has referred to the most foundational beliefs a person must hold to be considered a Christian. Historically, these foundational beliefs have been expressed in the Creeds. (As an aside, the Apostles and Nicene Creeds were created by the "catholic"--universal--church. They also predate the canonization of scripture and were developed to address some pretty rampant heresies in the Church at that time. In fact, the Creeds helped inform the bishops about which texts should be in the canon. Additionally, the vast majority of Christendom adheres to the Creeds).

So, if I accept the Creeds as the standard for foundational belief, then all the concepts you've mentioned are not essential doctrines for being a Christian.

Again, just because they are non-essential, doesn't mean that they are not IMPORTANT...so don't presume that I'm saying something like, "These things shouldn't matter to you." I'm NOT saying that.

What I am saying is this: Based on my belief regarding orthodoxy, someone can participate in the Sacrament of Reconciliation (confession) without there being any reason for us to say, "This person is NOT a Christian." However, the Creeds DO address (for example) the resurrection of Jesus. So, if someone says something like, "Oh gee, it doesn't matter if Jesus really rose from the dead. If science found the body of Jesus, I wouldn't lose my faith," THEN I would doubt their understanding of the basics of the faith, and subsequently, their Christianity.

Here is a website for the three Creeds--Apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian. They are all from a Lutheran website. (remember, the Creeds aren't an RCC thing...most of Christendom believes the Creeds).

http://bookofconcord.org/creeds.php

Thanks for replying Mary. Honestly, I'm more confused now than ever. Too many intricacies to delve into. Can we simplify this discussion?
If I'm wrong on any point please let me know.

You rely SOLELY on the blood of Jesus and His resurrection as payment for your sins and salvation.

You DON't believe in the doctrine of purgatory, and subsequent payment, monetary, mass cards, etc.. OR prayer to get someone out of purgatory, because that would negate the belief and trust SOLELY in Jesus.

We can start with this one doctrine so as not to muddy the discussion.

IF you agree with those statements, why wouldn't you want to find a Church that teaches in Christ ALONE for salvation?
 
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