Master of Divinity Student
- Thread starter Taylorj2
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Goobers are peanuts, right? Or maybe they are peasants? Can't really say at this point. Kindy freaky I guess.
Hopefully we will respect all parts by the end of Trump's term.
(Wonder why praying hands is not an imogee option?)
Verily, I saith unto thee, thou hast that privilege, brother....I‘ll stick with the KJV.
just yankin your chain.... you know I love ya, bro!
A concession on your part, "yes, it is obvious that the Jews are being addressed".
What about chapter four?
Romans 4:1
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
Are you telling me that Abraham is in your family tree?
No the text (Romans 2 to the end of Romans 11) is not discussing any man.
The text (Romans 2 to the end of Romans 11) is specifically explaining why the Jews failed!
I‘ll stick with the KJV.
Then you would miss an insight into Romans 7.
1. Is Paul directly addressing the Jews in Rome in Romans 7?
Yes — the primary audience of Romans 7 is Jewish believers or Jews familiar with the Law. Paul signals this clearly:
Romans 7:1 – “Or do you not know, brothers — for I am speaking to those who know the law...”
This shows Paul is now shifting to address Jews in Rome — those who were raised under Torah and understand the Mosaic law system. Gentiles, by contrast, were never under this law:
Romans 2:14 – “For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires...”
So yes, Romans 7 is directed toward Jewish hearers — those who had lived under the Mosaic covenant.
2. Is Paul describing his own past struggle with sin as a Jew under the law?
That’s a very likely and consistent interpretation — Paul is reflecting on his own experience as a Jew under the Law, and how sin used the Law to bring death rather than life. This is especially clear in verses like:
Romans 7:9 – “I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.”
This implies a personal narrative. Paul had a period where he felt spiritually "alive" (perhaps as a self-righteous Pharisee; cf. Philippians 3:6), but the law eventually exposed the sin within, and he died — a spiritual awakening to his true state.
Also:
Romans 7:11 – “For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.”
This again sounds personal — not hypothetical — especially when compared to Paul’s language elsewhere:
Philippians 3:4–7 – Paul describes his former life as a Pharisee: “as to the law, a Pharisee... as to righteousness under the law, blameless. But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss...”
Romans 7 seems to be the internal experience behind that shift.
So yes, Paul is describing his own failure under the Law. He knew the Law, even loved it (7:22), but could not fulfill it because of the power of sin in his flesh (7:18, 23).
3. Would Gentile believers in Rome understand Romans 7?
Probably not intuitively. Most Gentiles:
- Were never given the Mosaic law (cf. Romans 2:14, Ephesians 2:12).
- Had no covenantal relationship with God before Christ.
- Would have been unfamiliar with the internal Jewish struggle to fulfill Torah.
That’s likely why Paul qualifies his audience in 7:1: “I am speaking to those who know the law...”
But Paul includes Gentile readers elsewhere in Romans by:
- Explaining the role of the Law and sin in all humanity (Romans 5).
- Showing the universal need for grace (Romans 6).
- Leading to the solution in Romans 8: life in the Spirit for all believers, Jew and Gentile alike.
Conclusion (NT-only):
Yes, Romans 7 is primarily addressed to Jews in the Roman church — “those who know the law” (7:1). Yes, Paul is describing his own internal experience under the Mosaic Law — how sin overcame him despite the goodness of the Law. Gentiles were never under the law, and so Romans 7 would have been foreign to their experience — but Paul includes them by using chapters 5–8 to build a unified case for justification and sanctification through Christ for both Jew and Gentile.I assume that you are aware of the two ways of praying and singing?
1 Corinthians 14:13-15
Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays,
but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also;
I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
You seem to be openly rejecting the apostles teaching?
The practice of "speaking in tongues" is found among people belonging to the Pentacostal denomination. I know you're well-meaning, Taylor, but according to scripture, the gift of speaking in tongues died out with the last of Jesus Christ's First Century apostles.
1 Corinthians 13:8
"Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with."
I'm curious as to why your professors didn't point that out to you at the university you're attending. You might want to ask them why.
This is all the more reason why each one of us is responsible for examining the scriptures for ourselves, to confirm that what we're being taught by others is supported by scripture.
New International Version –Acts 17:11
"Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."
Neutral,
While I do believe in that verse, I believe it will take place when Jesus comes back and returns at his second coming. It will be then that the Spiritual gifts will cease.
Well, you should know that while my professors often press us even in on what we believe, they often use arguments of the differing views to push back. My professors believe the gifts are for today and are continuationists.
I am guessing you see the N.T. as the, 'perfect arriving', hence, no gifts or ministries.
Romans 13:9-10
For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
Please don't assume when, "the perfect comes", that is referring to the scripture.
Simply because you generate a contradiction in the minds of those reading your post.
If the text (1 Corinthians) is perfect.
Then the instruction by Paul to the Corinthian church in 1 Corinthians is redundant.
Why would Paul tell the Corinthian church.
14 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
When they are holding the perfect in their hands?
A PERSON CAN NEVER EVER LOSE THEIR SALAVTION. for it is written
Ephesians 1:13-14
New International Version
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
Salavtion is The HOLY SPIRIT given to us by GOD! Jesus promises Him to us forever!
Now, can people sin against their salvation. Yes, as unadvisable as it is but the Holy Spirit never leaves a true born again believer! so the very topic is misleading! A man still reaps what he sows and His actions good or bad will be judged by God and in the end a man will never lose their salvation (The Holy Spirit) BUT can come under Gods wrath if he tests God by sinning while saved. When Gods final judgement comes its more like, "What did you do with what I gave you"? This subject is a very unadvisable subject to talk about because it does not edify the reader and implicates lies instead of clear and concise truth based on the whole word of God.
Ephesians 1:13-14
New International Version
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
Salavtion is The HOLY SPIRIT given to us by GOD! Jesus promises Him to us forever!
Now, can people sin against their salvation. Yes, as unadvisable as it is but the Holy Spirit never leaves a true born again believer! so the very topic is misleading! A man still reaps what he sows and His actions good or bad will be judged by God and in the end a man will never lose their salvation (The Holy Spirit) BUT can come under Gods wrath if he tests God by sinning while saved. When Gods final judgement comes its more like, "What did you do with what I gave you"? This subject is a very unadvisable subject to talk about because it does not edify the reader and implicates lies instead of clear and concise truth based on the whole word of God.
the explanation is actually based on the whole bible. I gave that passage so people would stop thinking the wrong way. What people fail to realize is salvation isnt an idea but a person. YES, the Holy Spirit is a real living person and he LIVES in a believer at salvation. You mock me as you like, but ill bless you in return. The Holy Spirit is Salvation and as God promises he never leaves us. But its clear that people can sin against him. The question isnt whether a person can lose their salvation because that part is clear, God never leaves us. BUT, will a person sin against God while he lives in them ? or Will a person continue with God or go their own way? is the real questions that should be asked. Im trying to help you see the very question at hand is misleading. So, what happens when you make it to heaven? do you think you will lose your free will then? Lucifer sinned in heaven and was cast out and so did many others . I employ you to read the whole bible. BUT honestly unless your born again you will never understand because only God can teach us and give us true understanding that his word teaches. So call me what you will, but I advise you at least pray and ask God if anything i'm saying is true . Let me tell you, that topic causes doubts and doubts is where satan works. Why would you want to hinder you precious brothers faith? to be provocative. Let me tell you, my brothers and sisters in christ lives mean something to me, and I know for sure they mean a lot to God. Be a shepard and keep the sheep safe dont throw them to the wolves
Thanks for the feedback, because I want the creed to be as correct as possible.
Grace is implied in #4 by "accept God's justification in Jesus", but I will see if I can work grace into that point.
The return of Jesus is implied in #5 by "will eventually achieve heaven", but again I see your point and will try to reword it.
I am glad we agree on the main thing, so we will can discuss and possibly disagree about secondary doctrines as siblings.
TTYL
P.S. I just updated the Creed on Lesson 2 of our website per your suggestions. Thanks again.
<truthseekersfellowship.com>
Yes, but as Jesus said in Matthew 4:7, "It is also written":
MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”
1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”
GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”
CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”
2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”
2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”
HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” This passage indicates that apostasy may be viewed as total depravity or blasphemy against the HS (MT 12:31).
HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”
JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”
2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”
1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”
JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”
RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”
Thus, we see the need to harmonize Scriptures regarding the doctrine of perseverance.
Would you like to go first?
The point I was making is according to the One verse I put was to make everyone understand that the subject matter is improperly asked and thus being used to create doubts in the readers. To Question your very salvation is something we are commanded not to do... Thats doubting! The very question suggest to the reader to question Gods faithfullness and Promises. It is an unfruitful question. satan asks questions to causes doubts...
genesis 3:1
New International Version
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the
LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
genesis 3:1
New International Version
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the
LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
