Replacement/Supersessionism Theology,Why it Matters

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
Im afraid you are right,we wont change each others minds. Replacement Theology has been responsible for antisemitism down through history. Of course those who believe the theology wont admit this. To change the name doesnt change the belief. Unfortunately your questions have been answered again and again in these pages and anyone who jumps in is just starting the circle again. Romans 11 is clear,God is not done with the Jews.
I'm sorry, I'm not going thru to the beginning of the thread to comb them for your answer. Time is precious. Unless you want to be viewed as a cop out to my questions, please answer them. Who is this new nation that will bare fruit?
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
Nope,dont believe in helping send Jews back to their homeland.God is and will do that. His plan,not mine.I disagree with those sending money to some random charity that "says" their helping Jews go back to their homeland. I do believe in helping charities to support Jews like any other charity.
I'm glad to hear that ;).
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
126
63
We should support the Jews,for the Old Testament covenant was given to them,in which the Gentile could take hold of that covenant,and the New Testament covenant was given to the Jews,in which the Gentile can take hold of that covenant.
No we should support Israel. The Old Testament covenant was given to Israel. But the Old Testament makes crystal clear that the true Israel is formed of those who believe in the covenant and are faithful to it. Those who were not were cast off. Thus huge numbers of Israelites were cast off. Many Gentiles became proselytes and became part of Israel

The coming of Jesus established who were the true Israel, It was that part of the Jews which believed in the Messiah (the foundation of the olive tree). And they were eventually augmented by believing Gentiles who thus became Israelites. The only Israel accepted by God today is the church founded on the believing remnant of Israel,

Jesus said that salvation is of the Jews,and the nation of Israel has to come to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.
yes the true nation, the believing nation now called the church, the holy nation of 1 Peter 2.9.

God said that the Gentile should not boast against Israel,because if they being a wild olive branch can be grafted in to the tree,how much more can the Jew be grafted in to the tree.
True by once again becoming Israelites by believing in the Messiah.

God said He is going to make a full end of all Gentile nations,but He will not make a full end of Israel,but they will not be wholly unpunished,and the nation of Israel will be the only operating government during the millennial reign of Christ.
There will be no future millennial reign of Christ, it is already in process,

The truth is Israel is the Church,in which the Gentile can take hold of that covenant,and God said He always has a remnant of Jews that follow Him in the truth,even when they were rebellious majority wise.
Very true.

The Church does not replace Israel,for Israel is the Church,and the New Testament covenant was given to them,and Israel will be the only operating government in the millennial reign of Christ,and the new earth will be called the New Jerusalem.
The true Israel is reigning in the millennium NOW under Christ the king. WE are reigning with Christ.

But the NEW Jerusalem is the bride of Christ. It is the true church, the true Israel,

God chosen people are the Jews,and are only the Jews,and when a Gentile gets saved,then they become a Jew inward,and can be a part of God's chosen people,the Jews.
Israel are God's chosen people NOT the Jews. And WE are Israel, the only Israel
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Just FYI, I believe the Church is a continuation of Israel, not a replacement. However, I believe replacement theology has more biblical support then your dispensational, premil, future millennial golden age theology. I also believe replacement theology is less dangerous then your eschatological system. But lets put this aside, for each of our systems are pretty much ingrained in our brain/belief system that whatever I say or you say will not change each other's thinking. All I'd like to do is ask you a few questions about Matthew 21:43.

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

(Please read the whole chapter to get the context and answer my questions)

1. Who was Jesus talking to?
2. Who is Jesus reprimanding?
3. Who is this other nation?

It was prophesied in the OT. Jesus was not saying anything new.


~[SUP]25 [/SUP]As He says also in Hosea:
“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”[SUP][h][/SUP]
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”[SUP][I]


[/SUP]

2nd, It was not a nation, It was a people (gentiles)
3rd. Even though the gentile was "grafted in" they should not boast, as if they were special (like the jews did against Israel, which is what replacement theology does) But know the mystery. The blindness IN PART has occurred to THAT NATION (Israel) Until the :FULNESS f the Gentile has come in. Then something will happen.. ALL Israel will be saved.

And as I have said before. I disagree with what is more dangerous. to me amil is dangerous, It says God does not keep his promises.



 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Most Christians of your view believe and support that we should help and encourage Jews to go back to their homeland, whereas, they will eventually be in a battle and 1/3 of the Jews will die, 1/3 of the Jews will be scattered again.

The worst persecution you could possibly give them is to keep them from knowing who their King really is, and from entering the Kingdom God has setup with is son on the throne of David now (Acts 2).

Can you show support for this? I have studied this for decades, and have never heard this before.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Nope,dont believe in helping send Jews back to their homeland.God is and will do that. His plan,not mine.I disagree with those sending money to some random charity that "says" their helping Jews go back to their homeland. I do believe in helping charities to support Jews like any other charity.

Amen, Jews should not be treated any different than Americans, muslims, chines or any other religion or nationality.

We should pray for them all. and try to be lights to them all. so all may come to Christ.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
126
63

It was prophesied in the OT. Jesus was not saying anything new.


~[SUP]25 [/SUP]As He says also in Hosea:
“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”[SUP][h][/SUP]
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”[SUP][I][/SUP]
[SUP]

Yes it was fulfilled in the Jewish remnant of believers in the Messiah as augmented by Gentile proselytes who formed the true Israel accepted by God


[/SUP]

2nd, It was not a nation, It was a people (gentiles)
3rd. Even though the gentile was "grafted in" they should not boast, as if they were special (like the jews did against Israel, which is what replacement theology does)
LOL you don't even understand our position. And I think you've got a bit mixed up.

But know the mystery. The blindness IN PART has occurred to THAT NATION (Israel) Until the :FULNESS f the Gentile has come in. Then something will happen.
That does not say anywhere that the blindness will be removed. 'Then something will happen' is an addition to Scripture. Shame on you. The Jews blindness will continue whilst the numbers of the true Israel are made up. The election of Israel and the fullness of the Gentiles (the full number of those who will become proselytes) form the true Israel, the 'all Israel' which will be saved. Unbelieving Jews will be judged along with unbelieving Gentiles.

. ALL Israel will be saved.
Yes the whole of the true Israel of God, the branches of the olive tree of Israel,

And as I have said before. I disagree with what is more dangerous. to me amil is dangerous, It says God does not keep his promises.
No lol it says that YOU do not even understand God's promises. I would buy you a New Testament lol but you wouldn't study it.

 

GuessWho

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2014
1,227
34
48
As Crossnote has said this theology has been the cause of antisemitism down through church history. The Catholic Church was the first to put Jews in ghettos and make them wear the yellow star. Some of the early church fathers were antisemitic. And it all comes down to Replacement Theology Heresy. The belief that the Jews receive all the curses and the "church" receives all the blessings.

Justin Martyr- The custom of circumcising the flesh, handed down from Abraham, was given to you as a distinguishing mark, to set you off from other nations and from us Christians. The purpose of this was that you and only you might suffer the afflictions that are now justly yours; that only your land be desolated, and you cities ruined by fire, that the fruits of you land be eaten by strangers before your very eyes; that not one of you be permitted to enter your city of Jerusalem. Your circumcision of the flesh is the only mark by which you can certainly be distinguished from other men…as I stated before it was by reason of your sins and the sins of your fathers that, among other precepts, God imposed upon you the observence of the sabbath as a mark.

John Chrysostom -The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition."…"I would say the same things about their souls…

Peter the Venerable-Yes, you Jews. I say, do I address you; you, who till this very day, deny the Son of God. How long, poor wretches, will ye not believe the truth? Truly I doubt whether a Jew can be really human… I lead out from its den a monstrous animal, and show it as a laughing stock in the amphitheater of the world, in the sight of all the people. I bring thee forward, thou Jew, thou brute beast, in the sight of all men.


John Calvin-Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone.



​These are the words of CHRISTIAN men! Is it any wonder that the Holocaust happened with this kind of attitude?! It was the beginning of Replacement Theology Heresy. And it was being taught in the churches while many churches began to persecute the Jews. And then we wonder why they just wont accept this loving Jesus we try to introduce them to. Lets hear from one of the most famous chruch reformers...Martin Luther...


Martin Luther--
Even if they {Jews} were punished in the most gruesome manner that the streets ran with their blood, that their dead would be counted, not in the hundred thousands, but in the millions, as happened under Vespasian in Jerusalem and for evil under Hadrian, still they must insist on being right even if after these 1,500 years they were in misery another 1,500 years, still God must be a liar and they must be correct. In sum, they are the devil’s children, damned to Hell...

The Jews too got what they deserved. They had been called and elected to be God’s mouth as Jeremiah says...Open your mouth wide and I will fill it; they however, kept tightly closed their muzzles, eyes, ears, nose, whole heart and all senses, so he polluted and squirted them so full that it oozes from them in all places and devil’s filth comes from them.
Yes, that tastes good to them, into their hearts, they smack their lips like swine. That is how they want it. Call more: ‘Crucify him, crucify him.’ Scream more: ‘His blood come upon us and our children.’ (Matthew 27:25) I mean it came and found you...
Perhaps, one of the merciful Saints among us Christians may think I am behaving too crude and disdainfully against the poor, miserable Jews in that I deal with them so sarcastically and insulting. But, good God, I am much too mild in insulting such devils…


Now Im not accusing anyone here of feeling this way about the Jews.At lease I hope no one feels this way.But when you support the Replacement Theology this is what you are supporting! It is heresy!

Jesus Christ Himself didn't call them beautiful names. Was he an antisemitic too? Even Stephen, the first martyr scolded the Jews for their KILLING of the Righteous One. In the same way, Saint John Chrysostom called them assassins, for what they did do the Messiah. Is the truth antisemitic?

When did the Christians persecuted the Jews? I only know about Jews persecuting Christians (read Acts), not the other way around.
 

GuessWho

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2014
1,227
34
48
Your logic, kaylagirl, is very dangerous and twisted.

You imply that if we deny the specialness of national Israel we align ourselves with Hitler. That's false and stupid. If I deny the specialness of national Israel is because I believe Jesus Christ, the New Testament and His Church (the true Israel).
 
B

Biblelogic01

Guest
Jesus Christ Himself didn't call them beautiful names. Was he an antisemitic too? Even Stephen, the first martyr scolded the Jews for their KILLING of the Righteous One. In the same way, Saint John Chrysostom called them assassins, for what they did do the Messiah. Is the truth antisemitic?

When did the Christians persecuted the Jews? I only know about Jews persecuting Christians (read Acts), not the other way around.
Pull out a history book.

Did you know that the Jews were barely effected by the black plague because of their life style?
The Church accused the Jews as the cause of the black plague and had a lot of Jews killed.

Jesus was a Jew, so how could He persecute Jews.

Jews are probably the most hated religion/race throughout all of history.

All you have to do is look in history.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48

Can you show support for this? I have studied this for decades, and have never heard this before.
what part? that Christians are encouraging Jews to move back to their homeland? Or that Jews will be involved with another battle where 1/3 will be killed and 1/3 will be scattered? Or that Jesus is their King now?
 

GuessWho

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2014
1,227
34
48
Pull out a history book.

Did you know that the Jews were barely effected by the black plague because of their life style?
The Church accused the Jews as the cause of the black plague and had a lot of Jews killed.

Jesus was a Jew, so how could He persecute Jews.

Jews are probably the most hated religion/race throughout all of history.

All you have to do is look in history.
Wait a minute! She quoted John Chrysostom and Justin the Martyr and implied they persecuted the Jews by calling them assassins of Jesus Christ. That is not the same thing with the holocaust and will never be (only a twisted mind could compare the two). If they were antisemitic than so was the New Testament, so was Jesus Christ by calling them names and so was Stephen.

If the Catholic Church accused them for the black plague and persecuted them then say that "the Catholic Church persecuted them" and don't involve the holy fathers of the Church in the killing of the Jews!

Saint John Chrysostom never preached persecuting and killing the Jews! Never!
 

GuessWho

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2014
1,227
34
48
To say that the Jews killed Jesus Christ is not antisemitism! It is in the Bible. To persecute and kill the Jews: that is antisemitism. Let's not confuse the two!
 

GuessWho

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2014
1,227
34
48
Also, you can check the Talmud and see the beautiful names Jews have for every non-Jew and you will also see how they are instructed to treat the non-Jews.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48

It was prophesied in the OT. Jesus was not saying anything new.


~[SUP]25 [/SUP]As He says also in Hosea:
“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”[SUP][h][/SUP]
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”[SUP][I]


[/SUP]

2nd, It was not a nation, It was a people (gentiles)
3rd. Even though the gentile was "grafted in" they should not boast, as if they were special (like the jews did against Israel, which is what replacement theology does) But know the mystery. The blindness IN PART has occurred to THAT NATION (Israel) Until the :FULNESS f the Gentile has come in. Then something will happen.. ALL Israel will be saved.

And as I have said before. I disagree with what is more dangerous. to me amil is dangerous, It says God does not keep his promises.



I teach that God does keep His promises, I can't help it if you don't understand them and who they apply to. I also teach that if God makes a contract or covenant with people, He'll keep it, unless the other party defaults on it. God is not obligated to keep a land promise to Israel when they defaulted on the contract. God told them over and over, if they were unfaithful to Him and went after other gods, that He'd kick them out. We've been down this road before to no avail. The only un conditional promise was to Abraham and His seed which is Christ.

Ephesians 2
Brought Near by His Blood

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But nowin Christ Jesusyou who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
 
Last edited:

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
To say that the Jews killed Jesus Christ is not antisemitism! It is in the Bible. To persecute and kill the Jews: that is antisemitism. Let's not confuse the two!
Thank you!
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
I'm sorry, I'm not going thru to the beginning of the thread to comb them for your answer. Time is precious. Unless you want to be viewed as a cop out to my questions, please answer them. Who is this new nation that will bare fruit?
They arent my answers others have answered this question several times. If your time is too precious to look through the first few pages like everyone else then Im sorry you are so busy. It not coping out on your questions.I'll answer,you'll move on to the next part of the argument and we'll have another 24 pages of you trying to change my mind.Ive said before what I believe and dont plan to reiterate it to everyone that comes on the thread wanting to start a new argument. If you have a new angle thats different.Otherwise you're simply rehashing whats already been discussed.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
"The view that has always been held is what today is called amillennialism. It is this view that the Holy Spirit gave in the beginning and has preserved unchanghed for 2000 years." from valliant

Well, what is obvisiouly is the fact. "Amillenanialism" and "pre ore post ore How ever millenianialism" are cant find a solution, because of the different using from hermeneutic and exegesic tools. Even when we talk about the same vers we can got different meanings.
So an amillenialist can argue with an amillenialist because they have the same base of hermeneutic and exegetic. If an amillenialist is argue with a premillenialist the cant come to an solution!

But the matter is not what we are believing, but what the Lord says.
We can discuss about any doctrine, but we have limits. Limits then when we try to say God what he has to do, ore how something should come.


I suppose we all would agree if we say that the Lord God will fulfill his promisses which he has made in the past.
If we state that the Volk of Israel (Jacob) has no future and that the church is now the true Israel, then we also must say that God will not fulfill his promisses which he made in the OT through the prophets to the nation of Israel!
But if God will not keep the promisses which he has made, then what reason we should have to trust his prommises which he made for us?

If you believe that God will not keep his promisses with his nation Israel as he has prommised in the OT, then you are not on a biblical way!
F.e. the book of Joel is not fulfilled yet, even when Peter quotet this partly in Act 2.

If you deny that the volk of Israel is Gods choosen Volk, even it is present far away from the Lord, then your teaching is wrong and against God himself. The teaching of so called "amillenianism" is not going along with Gods sight with his volk Israel. Of course I will not change your mind. But it comes as the Lord will and not how we think it will come. And for that I am glad! He is full of mercy and love! More then we deserve!
Hope you will find the truth!
The issue is NOT about God breaking His covenant. It is all about Israel breaking the covernant. They broke it twice and were led off into capitivity. The last chance was when He was here at His first Advent and they rejected Him again. Since the nation was no longer needed, they were destroyed by Rome in 70AD, They were scattered and will never return.

The current Covenant operates the very same way. It is not God that breaks the Covenant, but man. There is mercy for repentance as long as man lives.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
To say that the Jews killed Jesus Christ is not antisemitism! It is in the Bible. To persecute and kill the Jews: that is antisemitism. Let's not confuse the two!
Jews as a whole are not culpable for Christs death. The Pharisees and elders sought to kill him,religious leaders.Why did they come after Jesus in dark of night? Why did they say they couldnt seize him for fear of starting a riot? Why was Judas paid 30 pieces of silver? Our sins make us all culpable for Christs death. Jew and Gentile.