The Age of Miracles, still going or not?
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Speaking to Thomas, Jesus said blessed is He who has not seen, and yet has believed. But he also told him to put his finger in His hands and His hand in His side, so that He be not faithless, but believe.
We should not __define__ faith as believing without evidence, since Christ told Thomas to believe and showed Him the evidence. But there is a blessing on those who believe in the resurrection without seeing Christ risen.
This is a also blessing some of Paul's converts received that he himself did not receive, since he believed after or when Christ appeared to him.
One could also have seen Peter do a miracle and believed his message without having seen Jesus rise. There is a place for seeing and examining evidence and then believing. After Jesus turned water into wine, 'His disciples believed on Him there.' Sergius Paulus believed after he saw that Elymas was struck blind. The Samaritans paid close attention to what Philip said after they saw the signs and wonders that he did.
An unbelieving attitude is a sinful attitude-- that is an unbelieving attitude toward God. The Lord Jesus told the apostles that He would rise from the dead, yet they did not accept the testimony of the women who witnessed it.
A Christian not believing scripture unless one sees evidence of it is a bad thing. Think about the attitude of the officer who guarded the city gates when Elisha predicted the low food prices that would be available in a short time. The man expressed unbelief, and Elisha told him he wouldn't taste of it. The man was trampled to death when the food arrived. He had an unbelieving attitude toward the word of the Lord and uttered his unbelief.
Christians need to not be cynical about the idea of God moving and working in line with the scriptures. I've shared testimonies of a quick answer to prayer to atheists, and I just got a lot of accusations that I was a liar. If Christians have the attitude toward God answering prayer-- something as simple as I prayed for X amount of dollars for a need and quickly got X amount of dollars very soon after, or something extremely specific like that-- that's a bad thing. We shouldn't be cynical about God answering prayer.
That also applies to prayer for healing. And it also applies to the Spirit gifting individuals like scripture says He does. I Corinthians 12 teaches that the Spirit gifts one individual one way and another individual another way. Among those gifts are 'the working of miracles.'
Nowhere does any other scripture rescind the teaching of I Corinthians 12 and say that the Spirit no longer wills to give out that gift. I Corinthians 13 says nothing along those lines, even in the prooftext some misuse.
A Christian has no right to decree that the Holy Spirit does not, may not, or will not do things the scriptures teach that the Spirit does. This is an issue of God's sovereignty which man has no right to try to limit with his doctrine. And if the Spirit does work through individuals in this way, an overly skeptical attitude that rejects any such claims outright is a bad, unbelieving attitude, and likely a quite sinful attitude. It is even worse if one gives voice to unbelief or derision over such a topic.
Let us compare this to what Paul said about prophesying. 'Quench not the Spirit. Despise not Prophesyings. Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good.'
There are people who would reject or dismiss out of hands prophesyings without proving or testing them. Some people do the same with miracles.
We should not __define__ faith as believing without evidence, since Christ told Thomas to believe and showed Him the evidence. But there is a blessing on those who believe in the resurrection without seeing Christ risen.
This is a also blessing some of Paul's converts received that he himself did not receive, since he believed after or when Christ appeared to him.
One could also have seen Peter do a miracle and believed his message without having seen Jesus rise. There is a place for seeing and examining evidence and then believing. After Jesus turned water into wine, 'His disciples believed on Him there.' Sergius Paulus believed after he saw that Elymas was struck blind. The Samaritans paid close attention to what Philip said after they saw the signs and wonders that he did.
An unbelieving attitude is a sinful attitude-- that is an unbelieving attitude toward God. The Lord Jesus told the apostles that He would rise from the dead, yet they did not accept the testimony of the women who witnessed it.
A Christian not believing scripture unless one sees evidence of it is a bad thing. Think about the attitude of the officer who guarded the city gates when Elisha predicted the low food prices that would be available in a short time. The man expressed unbelief, and Elisha told him he wouldn't taste of it. The man was trampled to death when the food arrived. He had an unbelieving attitude toward the word of the Lord and uttered his unbelief.
Christians need to not be cynical about the idea of God moving and working in line with the scriptures. I've shared testimonies of a quick answer to prayer to atheists, and I just got a lot of accusations that I was a liar. If Christians have the attitude toward God answering prayer-- something as simple as I prayed for X amount of dollars for a need and quickly got X amount of dollars very soon after, or something extremely specific like that-- that's a bad thing. We shouldn't be cynical about God answering prayer.
That also applies to prayer for healing. And it also applies to the Spirit gifting individuals like scripture says He does. I Corinthians 12 teaches that the Spirit gifts one individual one way and another individual another way. Among those gifts are 'the working of miracles.'
Nowhere does any other scripture rescind the teaching of I Corinthians 12 and say that the Spirit no longer wills to give out that gift. I Corinthians 13 says nothing along those lines, even in the prooftext some misuse.
A Christian has no right to decree that the Holy Spirit does not, may not, or will not do things the scriptures teach that the Spirit does. This is an issue of God's sovereignty which man has no right to try to limit with his doctrine. And if the Spirit does work through individuals in this way, an overly skeptical attitude that rejects any such claims outright is a bad, unbelieving attitude, and likely a quite sinful attitude. It is even worse if one gives voice to unbelief or derision over such a topic.
Let us compare this to what Paul said about prophesying. 'Quench not the Spirit. Despise not Prophesyings. Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good.'
There are people who would reject or dismiss out of hands prophesyings without proving or testing them. Some people do the same with miracles.
That there post hit me like lightning a bolt¡!
Shot down the top of my head and straight into the top of my inner spirit man.
Goose bumps included.
Oh yeah!!!
Apparently, you are unaware of the many verses teaching that love is critically important and essential to saving faith,
such as Galatians 5:6, 1 Corinthians 13:2 and others in that vein.
Also, I think you do not give enough weight to what is NOT said. If miracles were a sign of saving faith or Spirit filling or whatever, surely that would be taught many times in the NT!
Finally, the only miracles that are needed are creation and resurrection. Beyond those we all walk by faith,
not from miracle to miracle wanting to walk by proof. (2Cor. 5:7)
You DO raise an interesting question though regarding the connection between Romans 5:5 and brushing one's teeth.
Why would you think that? Why the straw man line of reasoning here? Why the false dichotomies here? Love and miracles are not opposites. They are not enemies of each other. Jesus loved enough to lay down His own life, but was also a great miracle Worker. Don't you think the apostles loved the brethren, but they still worked miracles.
My pointing that out doesn't mean I am unfamiliar with passages on love. One who does miracles but doesn't have love is nothing, but that doesn't make miracles unimportant. Paul also mentions giving all to the poor in I Corinthians 13, but he is not saying that giving to the poor is bad or that it is the enemy of love.
Again a partial strawman. Miracles can be evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit, but that does not mean that performing miracles is required for forgiveness of sin. But who is actually teaching that? Is that a real point anyone is making?
So do you think that splitting the Red Sea was not 'needed'. What about Jesus healing blind people and lepers and the others who were empowered to do such things? Did those who were demonized not 'need' demons cast out of them?
You are also creating a false dichotomy of walking by faith versus miracles. Let's look at an example in scripture that has both miracles and faith in it. Peter saw Jesus walk on water and He asked for Jesus to bid him to walk on the water. Jesus did. Peter walked on water. But when he saw the winds and the waves, he sank. While he was doing the miracle of walking on water, he was walking by faith. When he doubted, he sank. Jesus asked him why he doubted, so we know he doubted.
In this case, miracles and walking by faith are not at odds with each other. I think you are confusing the idea, that people who believe in miracles or doing miracles have to see some kind of miracle to believe. It was partly because Peter had faith that he could do the miracle, and also the Lord had told him to do it.
The reasoning is what I said: Scripture teaches that love is essential (Rom. 5:5, 8:9), but miracles are not,
so if you were aware of those Scriptures, you should have mentioned them so people would not try to walk
by miracles (2Cor. 5:7), which may mislead believers. (Matt. 24:24)
Yes, today there is no need for parting the Red Sea, nor for miraculous healing of illness in this age of medicine.
What needs healing is the spiritual sickness of hatred and atheism that Jesus alluded to in Matt. 9:12-13 & 13:15.
And yes, I strongly suspect that those seeking miracles are misled, just as I was once tempted to believe (Matt. 12:39).
Thus, no strawman and no false dichotomy, merely my experience and edification by GW/HS.
LIC, GWH
What does 'walk by miracles' mean? If that is an important concept to warn people against, why doesn't the Bible warn us against 'walking by miracles'? And why did Jesus do miracles if that is a concern? Miracles have their proper place in teaching and God's workings, as the Bible shows. There is no need to see miracle as an opponent of faith or love. And that doesn't fit with the Biblical narrative, either.
What if God had some reason to part the Red Sea again? I don't know if He does or doesn't. That's not up to me. But are you going to tell the Almighty that there is no need for Him to do so? If God chose to, that's up to Him. And the idea that there is 'no need for parting the Red Sea' is not part of Christian doctrine or the teaching of the Bible.
Egyptian Christians may tell you about the moving of the mountain Mokkatam, how the Kalif was going to kill them or exile them if they didn't move a mountain, so they fasted and prayed and the mountain started moving and bouncing around until the kalif was afraid it would hit the city he was building. That's the story, or part of it. Egyptians tell it one way. Marco Polo repeated a version of it. They commemorate it every year over there. Did it happen? I'm certainly open to the idea. Apparently it left an impression. Supposedly there are maps.
Be that as it may, if God wants to work through people to move mountains or split seas, God is God and not you. You don't have any right to say He won't, or that this is not for today. That's not your right or role.
I find that quote rather repulsive. I think it was King Asa who put his trust in physicians and not in the Lord. If you want to talk about walking by faith and not sight, then you want to post something like that.
Modern medicine does not negate anything the Bible teaches. We should still call for the elders of the church, if need be, and they should still pray the prayer of faith. And there is still laying on of hands for healing. Much of the world doesn't have money for doctors and the quality of medical care isn't necessarily great in some place. Doctors cannot cure everything, and even if we have good doctors and access to medicine, we should still pray if there is illness.
Modern medicine does not cancel scripture.
Why pick and choose and say we need some things the Bible teaches but not others.
Non sequitur. You still presented strawmen and false dichotomies.
I'll answer this later
yesterday was a horrible day, I havent had time to do any more digging in the books. I believe that Jane lead herself had a vision of a genuine woman named Sophia that revealed herself as Gods wife, I need to find the sources though this was NOT a embodiment to my knowladge but a genuine "revelation" she unveiled. I'll dig through the books when I have time, I have to clean the house today, and sort some stuff and then I probably will have time I hope.. if not I have to do the same and cook tomorrow so..times limited. Sorry for the late replies and stuff.
This debate is not about faith, it is about claims of miracles.
Miracles are real or false regardless of if they are believed.
Miracles are either of God or not and no amount of belief will change this.
The withered hand was healed and witnessed by the crowd with no need for faith by those watching. (Mark 3:1-6)
I thought you would see that 2Cor. 5:7 DOES warn against walking by sight or seeing miracles or proof
along with the passages in Matthew. Did you read them?
Jesus performed miracles in order to fulfill OT prophecy and show that he is God's Messiah.
I agree that we should not view miracles as opposed to faith and love, and I do not say they do not occur,
only that I have not experienced any other than possible miracles of timing.
Again, physical illness is not God's main concern.
I need you to quote me saying something that is a strawman or false dichotomy,
because I have no idea what you are referring to.
Thanks. TTYL
Here is someone who isn't a christian, but shows the false teachers and prophets out there and the techniques they use.
To have a real biblical miracle, you need to eliminate these kind of factors in what you see as claimed miracles. Eliminate emotional, showmanship, and psychological factors and then look at what is being claimed.
I have read them. 'Walk by faith and not by sight' does not mean that God does not do miracles. There is no reason to think Paul meant that. Also, Jesus performed a miracle and rebuked the people because an evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign. They were seeking a sign to test him... maybe even to get some more food. They sought him not because they saw the miracles, but because they ate of the loaves and were filled.
Of course He did.
He performed miracles to fulfill Old Testament prophecy.
He performed healings so that they might believe.
He performed miracles out of compassion.
Can you show me that the scriptures teach that Jesus only performed miracles to fulfill specific Old Testament prophecies... and that was the only reason, and where it says other parts of the gospels are lying when they give other reasons... and where it says in the
You can scroll back in the forum, control F for 'strawman' or 'false dichotomy' and look at your argument I quoted before using those terms.
Actually it has everything to do with faith miracles only happen if you have faith that they will so that is why those who seek evidence for it or the cessationist who deny it even happens anymore they may never see it for themselves because without faith such acts of God do not happen
The God of the Bible is most certainly not bound by the need for human faith.
Even a child understands this.
Huh?! Miracles are the most proof one can see!
Rather than scroll, I deny doing such.