613 Commandments in the Old Testament or the Torah

[Ariel82]

Well would it?

Jer 31:31-33

The Law didn't change (you can look at the word for Law here in verse 33, it is Torah) the change was the giving of the Holy Spirit to write these Laws in our hearts and minds.

torah is often used to refer to the first 5 books of the Bible. are all 5 books written in our hearts or does Torah/ Law of God refer to something else?

Let's notice a few things about the Rock Moses spoke of, who was it?

1Co 10:1-4

The Rock is Christ,

i agree

why didn't Israel follow Him?

Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

They could not, they did not have God's Spirit to give them the heart to follow Him...

so is this a its not their fault, God didn't give them the means to keep His commandment kind of statement?

Deu 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

They were fixated on the physical, on all the blessings they received.

Deu 32:16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
Deu 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
Deu 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

And they began to serve other gods. We don't do this today do we? Houses, cars, bank accounts status, Eastern religions, Scientology, etc.

if we listen to the world instead of God, then perhaps, but I'd rather talk about God then the world right now.....

Deu 32:19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
Deu 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

To cut to the chase, what is the overall theme? Israel became fat, dumb and happy with their PHYSICAL blessings, forgot who the true God was and then began to suffer correction.

i added a word, hope you don't mind. thought it might make the necessary distinction because if they focused on their SPRITUAL blessings, they would never have forgotten God.

Deu 32:28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.
Deu 32:29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
Deu 32:30 How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?
Deu 32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.
Deu 32:32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
Deu 32:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
Deu 32:34 Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?
Deu 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
Deu 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
Deu 32:37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
Deu 32:38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.
Deu 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Most went ot great effort here to warn the people of what would happen to them if the disobeyed and began to go after other gods (which really are not God) and to break the first Commandment.

is Most suppose to be Moses?

I still wonder, doesn't the people breaking the terms of the convenant (the commandment) release God from it?

gotta flip pancake brb.

 

[Ariel82]

so if someone breaks a covenant doesn't that mean the terms of the agreement are void?

No, if you have a covenant in a deed, say in this covenant you give a right of way to a neighbor and it is written into the deed as a term and condition. Now you decide to break this covenant, do you think your neighbor will say "Oh well, easy come, easy go"? I'll bet he will take you to court and MAKE you live up to the covenants and restriction of the deed filed and I'll bet the laws of the land and the courts will do this. Just because you decide to beak a covenant doesn't necessarily render it null and void.

Another example: You take out a loan for a car, $35,000 at 12% (whew) and then decide the payments are to high. You decide you just wont' pay them. Does that render this contract null and void and you just keep the car and pay nothing? Don't try this at home, the bank will show you in no uncertain terms that you cannot just render this contract null and void on your own.

I know God makes a NEW covenant with all of the SPIRITUAL descendents of Abraham who accept Jesus as Savior: Redeemer and Lord.

However, after Israel goes chasing after other gods and breaks the covenant with God, is God still held to the broken covenant?


Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

God (Christ) died to break this, because the only way to break a marriage covenant was for one of both of the parties to die.

missed this post.

okay, thanks for the responses.

will have to think and pray upon them.

ttyl.

 

[Ariel82]

From past conversation we both know each others beliefs on Sabbath.

yeah, still love you though we disagree.

every shadow has a reason for being cast.

 

[JaumeJ]

Ritualistic is any of the statutes, ordinances or laws that deal with the Temple or the alter. These are self-evident as not applying since the sacrifice of the Lamb of Yahweh, once and for all who have sinned and accepted His gift. This goes without having need of explanation to anyone who has received the Holy Spirit.

Coy....this is a word which aptly describes those people who say out of one side of their mouths, the law is dead not to be adhered to, and out of the other side of their mouths they say they love. There is never any harm in laws showing ways to demonstrate one's love. It is coy acting as if they cannot be followed under the laws of love.

Anyone who claims to read the New Testament and knows the teachings on brethren who revere one day over another, or on brethren who prefer not to eat one food or another knows they are not to hold it against them on these points. This is a teaching from the New Testament they point out frequently when it suits them, but when it comes time to practice this, they do not understand. Their eyes are yet blinded by the veil of Moses, claiming they see when they do not, their guilt remains. These are teachings from the Master, not my opinion, although I always believe the Master. Also, and again, these people are playing and being coy. These people are envious of the freedom of others in their faith in Yeshua, Jesus. Others who know they live in grace, yet joy in obedience without giving a thought to the curse of the law, having been freed from it totally.

No one has accused you of being any of the negative types described here, and I certainly hope you do not believe I have decided this about you, personally. However, you really need to understand what has been said before attacking it.

You later asked me to reply to what you contested, therefore I have. Also, patience is a virtue is not in the Word, however by our patience we do possess our souls, amen.

Do do you think you are speaking to with these words?

- "qualified to disregard rules"

you disregard the ones you label as "ritualistic" without bothering to show WHY or HOW Jesus fulfills them. Do you feel "qualified" to do that?

- "coy"?

no one is being coy, I thought this was a discussion board. many people have never read the list of 613. Sometimes people claim that shadows should still be followed. Openly discussing them and showing the wisdom if following God's teaching is not "coy." Openly revealing how men add their own rules and understand making things like the Sabbath in to a list of "rules" instead of understanding why Jesus says that the Sabbath is made for men and not men for the sabbath, might actually teach people something about how God works. However too many are stuck in the shadows they don't see the Light that shines among them.

-"envious"

no, not really. its more a profound sadness that many people will keep the bondage of the law and the ministry of sin and death written on stone tablets and not hear about the NEW covenant established through Christ Jesus.

Perhaps one day they will understand the lessons their tutors are trying to teach them.

 

[loveme1]

yeah, still love you though we disagree.

every shadow has a reason for being cast.

Where there is a shadow there must be Light

May we all look to the Light indeed.

 

[loveme1]

Ezekiel 20

19I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; 20And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God. 21Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness. 22Nevertheless I withdrew mine hand, and wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen, in whose sight I brought them forth. 23I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries; 24Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols. 25Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live; 26And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.

Felt like sharing the above.

 

[john832]

torah is often used to refer to the first 5 books of the Bible. are all 5 books written in our hearts or does Torah/ Law of God refer to something else?

Let's notice a few things about the Rock Moses spoke of, who was it?

1Co 10:1-4

The Rock is Christ,

i agree



so is this a its not their fault, God didn't give them the means to keep His commandment kind of statement?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

God is not winging it, He has a plan and it is unfolding exactly as He has designed it from before the time there was a single atom of the universe created...

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Christ knew they would not obey Him wihtout the circumcision of the heart, but the people did not. They (we, all of us) have to learn that lesson through hardship and suffering. It seems this is the only way we will really learn...

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

2Co 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
2Co 1:5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
2Co 1:6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

Christ set this example of learning through trials and suffering...

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

do
if we listen to the world instead of God, then perhaps, but I'd rather talk about God then the world right now.....

That is what we are talking about. God says He will write His Laws in our hearts and minds, He will give us the heart to obey Him...

Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
And then forever means forever.

i added a word, hope you don't mind. thought it might make the necessary distinction because if they focused on their SPRITUAL blessings, they would never have forgotten God.

Exactly, the problem is that without the Holy Spirit we do not have a Spiritual mind, we have a carnal (simply means fleshly) mind...

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

is Most suppose to be Moses?

Moses is a type or a shadow of Christ...

Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
Deu 18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
Deu 18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Deu 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Notice the caps? This Prophet to come is Christ.

I still wonder, doesn't the people breaking the terms of the convenant (the commandment) release God from it?

gotta flip pancake brb.

Christ's death released Him from the Covenant. Christ will not compromise with His Law one iota (you ought to look up where the word iota comes from, you will find it interesting), He teaches that divorce is not what He intended...

Mat 19:7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
Mat 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

 

[zone]

We have JESUS as our HIGH priest. Every member of the body of Christ can act as a priest.

yet Jesus tells us NOT to stone people, WHY?

"impressed and thrilled"? is that all you feel when thinking of what Christ did for you?

the 613 laws more often are a list of laws that people fall short of, a mirror to reveal to the world they are sinners in need of a savior.

"our present day church makes such fun of"? don't know what churches you've been attending but I haven't found one yet that does that.


do you clearly see "what God is teaching us"?

or did you just come into this thread to lambast me for questioning people's understanding of the OT and their demands to follow the LAW when most don't even bother reading all of them?

LOL@Ariel.
indeed.

tzitzits and who knows what.
we can wear one if we want to.
since Calvary it is nothing more than clothing.
risky at that, since it appears to be worn for something other than warmth

if we want to know about the Law, why don't we read about it compared to the Righteousness of God revealed in Jesus Christ?

ONE King and High Priest. a Better Covenant.

it's hair-raising to see this not understood.


Galatians 3
By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected bya the flesh? 4Did you sufferb so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

7Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justifyc the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
10For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”d 12But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirite through faith.

The Law and the Promise
15To give a human example, brothers:f even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.



paidagógos: a trainer of boys, i.e. a tutor
Original Word: παιδαγωγός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: paidagógos
Phonetic Spelling: (pahee-dag-o-gos')
Short Definition: a boy's guardian or tutor
Definition: a boy's guardian or tutor, a slave who had charge of the life and morals of the boys of a family, not strictly a teacher.

3807 paidagōgós (from 3816 /país, "a child under development by strict instruction") – properly, a legally appointed overseer, authorized to train (bring) up a child by administering discipline, chastisement, and instruction, i.e. doing what was necessary to promote development.

3807 (paidagōgos) is used of the role of the Law (OT), especially the necessary "letter" (foundation, technicalities) needed to establish the doctrines of salvation, grace, faith, etc.


STRONGS NT 3807: παιδαγωγός

παιδαγωγός, παιδαγωγου, ὁ (from παῖς, and ἀγωγός a leader, escort), from Herodotus 8, 75 down; a tutor (Latinpaedagogus) i. e. a guide and guardian of boys. Among the Greeks and Romans the name was applied to trustworthy slaves who were charged with the duty of supervising the life and morals of boys belonging to the better class. The boys were not allowed so much as to step out of the house without them before arriving at the age of manhood; cf. Fischer under the word in index 1 to Aeschines dial. Socrates; Hermann, Griech. Privatalterthümer, § 34, 15ff; (Smith, Dict. of Greek and Rom. Antiq. under the word; Becker, Charicles (English translation, 4th edition), p. 226f). They are distinguished from οἱ διδάσκαλοι: Xenophon, de rep. Lac. 3, 2; Plato, Lysias, p. 208 c.; (Diogenes Laërtius 3, 92. The name carries with it an idea of severity (as of a stern censor and enforcer of morals) in 1 Corinthians 4:15, where the father is distinguished from the tutor as one whose discipline is usually milder, and in Galatians 3:24f where the Mosaic law is likened to a tutor because it arouses the consciousness of sin, and is called παιδαγωγός εἰς Χριστόν, i. e. preparing the soul for Christ, because those who have learned by experience with the law that they are not and cannot be commended to God by their works, welcome the more eagerly the hope of salvation offered them through the death and resurrection of Christ, the Son of God.

 

[john832]

What is hair raising is to see someone try to negate the very words of the Rock in Deut 32...

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Same Jesus Christ that died for breaking His Law and the same Jesus Christ that spoke the Law on Mt. Sinai.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[zone]

obsessing over means or methods, forms of service, and rituals....would seem to indicate one may not yet have recognized their complete bankruptcy and need of the Savior.

whatever is done is to honor and glorify JESUS - for what HE HAS DONE.

anything short of that is definitely not the work of the Holy Spirit.

John 16:14
He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

John 5:23
that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

we have radical liberty in Jesus.
Amen.

 

[zone]

LOL@Ariel.
indeed.

tzitzits and who knows what.
we can wear one if we want to.
since Calvary it is nothing more than clothing.
risky at that, since it appears to be worn for something other than warmth

if we want to know about the Law, why don't we read about it compared to the Righteousness of God revealed in Jesus Christ?

ONE King and High Priest. a Better Covenant.

it's hair-raising to see this not understood.


Galatians 3
By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected bya the flesh? 4Did you sufferb so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

7Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justifyc the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
10For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”d 12But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirite through faith.

The Law and the Promise
15To give a human example, brothers:f even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.



paidagógos: a trainer of boys, i.e. a tutor
Original Word: παιδαγωγός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: paidagógos
Phonetic Spelling: (pahee-dag-o-gos')
Short Definition: a boy's guardian or tutor
Definition: a boy's guardian or tutor, a slave who had charge of the life and morals of the boys of a family, not strictly a teacher.

3807 paidagōgós (from 3816 /país, "a child under development by strict instruction") – properly, a legally appointed overseer, authorized to train (bring) up a child by administering discipline, chastisement, and instruction, i.e. doing what was necessary to promote development.

3807 (paidagōgos) is used of the role of the Law (OT), especially the necessary "letter" (foundation, technicalities) needed to establish the doctrines of salvation, grace, faith, etc.


STRONGS NT 3807: παιδαγωγός

παιδαγωγός, παιδαγωγου, ὁ (from παῖς, and ἀγωγός a leader, escort), from Herodotus 8, 75 down; a tutor (Latinpaedagogus) i. e. a guide and guardian of boys. Among the Greeks and Romans the name was applied to trustworthy slaves who were charged with the duty of supervising the life and morals of boys belonging to the better class. The boys were not allowed so much as to step out of the house without them before arriving at the age of manhood; cf. Fischer under the word in index 1 to Aeschines dial. Socrates; Hermann, Griech. Privatalterthümer, § 34, 15ff; (Smith, Dict. of Greek and Rom. Antiq. under the word; Becker, Charicles (English translation, 4th edition), p. 226f). They are distinguished from οἱ διδάσκαλοι: Xenophon, de rep. Lac. 3, 2; Plato, Lysias, p. 208 c.; (Diogenes Laërtius 3, 92. The name carries with it an idea of severity (as of a stern censor and enforcer of morals) in 1 Corinthians 4:15, where the father is distinguished from the tutor as one whose discipline is usually milder, and in Galatians 3:24f where the Mosaic law is likened to a tutor because it arouses the consciousness of sin, and is called παιδαγωγός εἰς Χριστόν, i. e. preparing the soul for Christ, because those who have learned by experience with the law that they are not and cannot be commended to God by their works, welcome the more eagerly the hope of salvation offered them through the death and resurrection of Christ, the Son of God.

you don't like what Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?
did Paul negate the very words of the Rock in Deut 32?

What is hair raising is to see someone try to negate the very words of the Rock in Deut 32...

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Same Jesus Christ that died for breaking His Law and the same Jesus Christ that spoke the Law on Mt. Sinai.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[john832]

obsessing over means or methods, forms of service, and rituals....would seem to indicate one may not yet have recognized their complete bankruptcy and need of the Savior.

whatever is done is to honor and glorify JESUS - for what HE HAS DONE.

anything short of that is definitely not the work of the Holy Spirit.

John 16:14
He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

John 5:23
that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

we have radical liberty in Jesus.
Amen.

To live as we please? Or a radical liverty in that we are forgiven and don't have to die for what we have done and continue to do?

 

[john832]

you don't like what Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?
did Paul negate the very words of the Rock in Deut 32?

I surely do...

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

What's the subject here, adultery? Maybe idolatry (having other gods before God)? Maybe murder? How about lying?

The subject here is the animal sacrifices that were the schoolmaster to teach us about the perfect sacrifice of Christ...

Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The passage in Gal 3 is about the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. If it were really thei Law, then we would obey the Law until we come to Christ then anything goes because the Law is done away. We could break into the neighbor's house and have a go at his wife, kill him and then take all that he has and it would not be sin...

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

One thing about it, if you do away with the Law, there is no sin. Maybe that is what you are espousing.

 

[GreenNnice]

Those two about love? I flub BIG TIME. God be merciful a sinner!

Those two about 'Love' are the only two you need to know, God gives us the strength of our soul through 'those two,' crossnoted, as all the others are important, too, as He leads us to understand them, or, not. I don't know.

'...you follow Me.' Who's to say we don't get asked by God to go learn the 613 for an occupation to teach others that there are two that will do

The Lord leads, crossnoted
And, I soooo want to Love God with all my heart, as He commands us, but, the ONLY way I can do it with His Spirit in me, leading, and, not my flesh being given power . The only way I can Love 'you' is through Him, there is NO Love in my flesh, it is pure concentrated evil, just like my heart, as Jeremiah tells us is evil . Without God, we are nothing, can do nothing, will BEAT nothing

 

[john832]

Those two about 'Love' are the only two you need to know, God gives us the strength of our soul through 'those two,' crossnoted, as all the others are important, too, as He leads us to understand them, or, not. I don't know.

'...you follow Me.' Who's to say we don't get asked by God to go learn the 613 for an occupation to teach others that there are two that will do

The Lord leads, crossnoted
And, I soooo want to Love God with all my heart, as He commands us, but, the ONLY way I can do it with His Spirit in me, leading, and, not my flesh being given power . The only way I can Love 'you' is through Him, there is NO Love in my flesh, it is pure concentrated evil, just like my heart, as Jeremiah tells us is evil . Without God, we are nothing, can do nothing, will BEAT nothing

How about that love thy neighbor thing?

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The word for comprehended here is...

G346
ἀνακεφαλαίομαι
anakephalaiomai
an-ak-ef-al-ah'ee-om-ahee
From G303 and G2775 (in its original sense); to sum up: - briefly comprehend, gather together in one.

So what Paul is saying is that the last six Commandments are summed up (gathered together, understood) in the saying love thy neighbor. Now how does a summation do away with the things you are summing up?

If I have two apples and three oranges, I have nothing because summing them up obliterates them? No, I have five pieces of fruit composed of two apples and three oranges.

Is it really anymore complicated than that?

 

[crossnote]

LOL@Ariel.
indeed.

tzitzits and who knows what.
we can wear one if we want to.
since Calvary it is nothing more than clothing.
risky at that, since it appears to be worn for something other than warmth

if we want to know about the Law, why don't we read about it compared to the Righteousness of God revealed in Jesus Christ?

ONE King and High Priest. a Better Covenant.

it's hair-raising to see this not understood.


Galatians 3
By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected bya the flesh? 4Did you sufferb so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

7Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justifyc the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
10For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”d 12But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirite through faith.

The Law and the Promise
15To give a human example, brothers:f even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.



paidagógos: a trainer of boys, i.e. a tutor
Original Word: παιδαγωγός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: paidagógos
Phonetic Spelling: (pahee-dag-o-gos')
Short Definition: a boy's guardian or tutor
Definition: a boy's guardian or tutor, a slave who had charge of the life and morals of the boys of a family, not strictly a teacher.

3807 paidagōgós (from 3816 /país, "a child under development by strict instruction") – properly, a legally appointed overseer, authorized to train (bring) up a child by administering discipline, chastisement, and instruction, i.e. doing what was necessary to promote development.

3807 (paidagōgos) is used of the role of the Law (OT), especially the necessary "letter" (foundation, technicalities) needed to establish the doctrines of salvation, grace, faith, etc.


STRONGS NT 3807: παιδαγωγός

παιδαγωγός, παιδαγωγου, ὁ (from παῖς, and ἀγωγός a leader, escort), from Herodotus 8, 75 down; a tutor (Latinpaedagogus) i. e. a guide and guardian of boys. Among the Greeks and Romans the name was applied to trustworthy slaves who were charged with the duty of supervising the life and morals of boys belonging to the better class. The boys were not allowed so much as to step out of the house without them before arriving at the age of manhood; cf. Fischer under the word in index 1 to Aeschines dial. Socrates; Hermann, Griech. Privatalterthümer, § 34, 15ff; (Smith, Dict. of Greek and Rom. Antiq. under the word; Becker, Charicles (English translation, 4th edition), p. 226f). They are distinguished from οἱ διδάσκαλοι: Xenophon, de rep. Lac. 3, 2; Plato, Lysias, p. 208 c.; (Diogenes Laërtius 3, 92. The name carries with it an idea of severity (as of a stern censor and enforcer of morals) in 1 Corinthians 4:15, where the father is distinguished from the tutor as one whose discipline is usually milder, and in Galatians 3:24f where the Mosaic law is likened to a tutor because it arouses the consciousness of sin, and is called παιδαγωγός εἰς Χριστόν, i. e. preparing the soul for Christ, because those who have learned by experience with the law that they are not and cannot be commended to God by their works, welcome the more eagerly the hope of salvation offered them through the death and resurrection of Christ, the Son of God.

You must go socialistic before giving more reps to Zone et.al. even though she deserves it on this post.

 

[GreenNnice]

How about that love thy neighbor thing?

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The word for comprehended here is...

G346
ἀνακεφαλαίομαι
anakephalaiomai
an-ak-ef-al-ah'ee-om-ahee
From G303 and G2775 (in its original sense); to sum up: - briefly comprehend, gather together in one.

So what Paul is saying is that the last six Commandments are summed up (gathered together, understood) in the saying love thy neighbor. Now how does a summation do away with the things you are summing up?

If I have two apples and three oranges, I have nothing because summing them up obliterates them? No, I have five pieces of fruit composed of two apples and three oranges.

Is it really anymore complicated than that?

Jesus summed it up, then, and, the other commandments are not void, they are just going to naturally (supernaturally) fall off the first two.

1. Love God with all your heart, mind, soul.

2. Love others as yourself.


Just a few words to follow, God condensed it for us. I mean, IF you Love God #1, that is, have Him your everything, He comes before YOUR mate, YOUR kids, and, of course, YOUR pleasures, and, don't forget YOUR dog , Rover, doesn't that pretty much lead to success.

And, when you add in #2, we are to love others as we love ourselves, then, that seals the deal. That is Love, that is what Paul says is more important than all the faith and hope we have.

I believe, Paul is NOT just speaking of Love of mankind but of Love of God and Love of understanding His ways are not our ways, hence, some of the most controversial verses in the bible regarding what we will 'see face to face' as some think it's consummation of the Bible, Old and New, and, some think it's His coming to see us again from the clouds, speaking ,of course, from 1 Corinthians 13, that starts out with 'Love is...' great verses in sequence before getting to the controversial stuff.

There really should be no controversy of it that is not opinionated in Love, not easy, I admit, but, 'Love' should win out over our deep conviction of believing that tongues, healings, ceased, which IS the verse most cessationists use for there belief of tongues and healings, prophesying ceased after the first century A.D.

 

[zone]

To live as we please? Or a radical liverty in that we are forgiven and don't have to die for what we have done and continue to do?

uh both.
i used to live like satan.

now i am pleased to not live that way, but to give thanks and praise for being set free from bondage to the sinful life i led.

and to give thanks and praise for a new desire planted deep in my heart: the day i see My Redeemer.

His Name is Wonderful.

...

does the new creature you are desire to live in some way pleasing to you that is contrary to the Spirit's leading?
i reckon it's hard at times.

 

[zone]

Those two about love? I flub BIG TIME. God be merciful a sinner!

considering they are the Summary of the Whole Law, ya.
i flub them too.

but there was One Who loved The Father perfectly.

John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.

 

[Ariel82]

Coy....this is a word which aptly describes those people who say out of one side of their mouths, the law is dead not to be adhered to, and out of the other side of their mouths they say they love. There is never any harm in laws showing ways to demonstrate one's love. It is coy acting as if they cannot be followed under the laws of love.

ok when you see someone who is being coy, could you point it out as being an example?

as of yet I haven't seen it in this thread.

. Also, patience is a virtue is not in the Word,

you mean like in these verses?

[h=3]Galatians 5:22-23[/h]Amplified Bible (AMP)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [[SUP][a][/SUP]that can bring a charge].