Are Women Not Allowed to Preach in Every Case?

[tourist]

The reason Adam ate is because Eve gave him the fruit it is said. He trusted her and loved her we know from where we read when God made her for him by taking her out of him and making her in Adam's image, but we know also because of what Adam confesses and what God says that he ate because he hearkened to the woman and let her have just that little authority over him. She caused him to .

I believe that Adam ate the fruit, knowing full well that he was disobeying God because he did not want to live without her. Nothing whatsoever to do with trust in my estimation.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The question is not irrelevant to me as it may help me understand your point of view on this topic. At least you admit that women are not inferior to men and I appreciate that.

By the way, I sometimes ask women with seminary training questions on a specific topic. So, I am not implying that women have nothing to teach me. I simply won't be led by a woman, nor will I be corrected by a woman in an authoritative way.

I responded to women leadership in the workplace, though, because in this arena, women are allowed to assume authority over men. Additionally, in the family situation, the mother has authority over male children, obviously. And a wise man will choose a wife who can manage and teach children.

I don't think women should be in leadership positions over any adult male inside the Church, though. And, they definitely should not be deciding doctrinal issues.

Having said that, there are many males I would not want deciding doctrinal issues, either. An elder was required to be a husband of one wife, for example. I would not trust a man who was unfaithful in his marital situation to be faithful at leading a spiritual household, and some churches have kept pastors who were adulterers, etcetera.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I believe that Adam ate the fruit, knowing full well that he was disobeying God because he did not want to live without her. Nothing whatsoever to do with trust in my estimation.

I guess we will have to wait to find out. I don't find any conclusive data to support a view. However, Adam didn't trust God enough to obey him, regardless of what the woman did.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You didn't answer my question about where in scripture does it state that women are more suceptable to deception than men.

The verse says Adam was not deceived, and that Eve was deceived. Paul gave this as a reason for prohibiting women from certain activities. I thought I already answered this...maybe I'm looking at an earlier post though.

 

[JeremiahsCup]

I believe that Adam ate the fruit, knowing full well that he was disobeying God because he did not want to live without her. Nothing whatsoever to do with trust in my estimation.

Lol it sounds very romantic, but I do not think so. I think the simplicity of the text really sets the correct tone, I think he ate it just out of hand because she gave it to him. We just know that the New Testament says Adam was not deceived and indeed in the Genesis account there is no indication that he was deceived, but merely his fault was listening to the woman. The woman of course because she was the one Satan the dragon was able to deceive is reinforced in her punishment to serve her husband and bear children in pain and sorrow. And of course the dragon himself is cursed above everything because he is the begetter of the lies.

 

[tourist]

Lol it sounds very romantic, but I do not think so. I think the simplicity of the text really sets the correct tone, I think he ate it just out of hand because she gave it to him. We just know that the New Testament says Adam was not deceived and indeed in the Genesis account there is no indication that he was deceived, but merely his fault was listening to the woman. The woman of course because she was the one Satan the dragon was able to deceive is reinforced in her punishment to serve her husband and bear children in pain and sorrow. And of course the dragon himself is cursed above everything because he is the begetter of the lies.

Adam knew that eating the forbidden fruit was wrong. He may have listened to Eve but he knew full well what he was doing and the consequences for doing so. He had only himself to blame.

 

[tourist]

By the way, I sometimes ask women with seminary training questions on a specific topic. So, I am not implying that women have nothing to teach me. I simply won't be led by a woman, nor will I be corrected by a woman in an authoritative way.

I responded to women leadership in the workplace, though, because in this arena, women are allowed to assume authority over men. Additionally, in the family situation, the mother has authority over male children, obviously. And a wise man will choose a wife who can manage and teach children.

I don't think women should be in leadership positions over any adult male inside the Church, though. And, they definitely should not be deciding doctrinal issues.

Having said that, there are many males I would not want deciding doctrinal issues, either. An elder was required to be a husband of one wife, for example. I would not trust a man who was unfaithful in his marital situation to be faithful at leading a spiritual household, and some churches have kept pastors who were adulterers, etcetera.

Regarding the women in leadership positions in the workplace, how is this any different than holding other positions elsewhere. Yeah, I have had quite a few women in the workplace that had supervisor or managerial roles. Yes, the wise course of action is to respond in a positive way or you may be shown the door.

 

[notuptome]

Adam knew that eating the forbidden fruit was wrong. He may have listened to Eve but he knew full well what he was doing and the consequences for doing so. He had only himself to blame.

So Adam's sin was to love Eve more than God. Since Eve was from Adam's own flesh you could say he loved himself more than God.

Adam sacrificed his fellowship with God over his fellowship with Eve.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[tourist]

So Adam's sin was to love Eve more than God. Since Eve was from Adam's own flesh you could say he loved himself more than God.

Adam sacrificed his fellowship with God over his fellowship with Eve.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I agree with your estimation.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Regarding the women in leadership positions in the workplace, how is this any different than holding other positions elsewhere. Yeah, I have had quite a few women in the workplace that had supervisor or managerial roles. Yes, the wise course of action is to respond in a positive way or you may be shown the door.

I think it is against the creation order. However, I have had mostly decent women supervisors. There was only one exception in my life.

But, I also think it is an issue if the female marriage partner is significantly older than a man, because it is against the creation order.

My main concern is women leadership in the church, though. I would not belong to a church that had a female head pastor, whatsoever.

And, I have lady friends who are very talented in understanding doctrine, so this is not a matter of intelligence. It is strictly related to the commands of Scripture, which I am convicted are solidly against women elders. An elder is to be the husband of one woman, and to have his own household in order. Women are not to be the leaders of their household in normal circumstances (of course, widows would be an exception).

But, the remarks about women bosses in the workplace aren't really something the Bible directly addresses, so I don't have an issue with someone having a different view on that. I may well be wrong

 

[JeremiahsCup]

Adam knew that eating the forbidden fruit was wrong. He may have listened to Eve but he knew full well what he was doing and the consequences for doing so. He had only himself to blame.

Yes that is correct, God did warn them and God did tell them the truth. I merely mean I don't think Adam was being like Romeo and Juliet. I think it's just a lot more simple due to the simplicity of the text and that she merely gave it to him and he merely ate.

 

[Dino246]

But, I also think it is an issue if the female marriage partner is significantly older than a man, because it is against the creation order.

How, exactly?

And, I have lady friends who are very talented in understanding doctrine, so this is not a matter of intelligence. It is strictly related to the commands of Scripture, which I am convicted are solidly against women elders. An elder is to be the husband of one woman, and to have his own household in order. Women are not to be the leaders of their household in normal circumstances (of course, widows would be an exception).

Phoebe, a woman, was a deacon (Romans 16:1). Sadly, most translations use either "servant" or "deaconess" but the word is the same one Paul used in his first letter to Timothy. The requirements for deacons are essentially the same as for elders, including being the "husband of one wife" (1 Tim 3:12). These two truths contradict... unless the "husband of one wife" speaks specifically to monogamy, not gender.

 

[Diakonos]

The requirements for deacons are essentially the same as for elders

The difference is that Teaching and Oversight were handled by the Elders, while the general affairs of the Church were handles by the deacons. Elders oversee the activity of deacons. Deacons don't rule. Shepherding is the primary role of Elders (feed, tend and protect ....with the Word).

 

[Diakonos]

Acts 6:1-5 is a great illustration that the apostles gave for the church to follow when Eldership would become an official office:

1 Now at this time while the disciples were increasing in number, a complaint arose on the part of the Hellenistic Jews against the native Hebrews, because their widows were being overlooked in the daily serving of food.
2 So the twelve summoned the congregation of the disciples and said, “It is not right for us to neglect the word of God in order to serve tables.
3 “Therefore, brethren, select from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task.
4 “But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.”
5 The statement found approval with the whole congregation; and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch.

 

[Dino246]

The difference is that Teaching and Oversight were handled by the Elders, while the general affairs of the Church were handles by the deacons. Elders oversee the activity of deacons. Deacons don't rule. Shepherding is the primary role of Elders (feed, tend and protect ....with the Word).

The (alleged) exclusion of women is the same, and is qualified by the fact that Phoebe was a deacon. Given that the requirement for deacons to be "the husband of one wife" cannot actually exclude women from the role because of Phoebe, the same principle must apply to the role of elders. In other words, women aren't excluded from that either.

 

[Diakonos]

The (alleged) exclusion of women is the same, and is qualified by the fact that Phoebe was a deacon. Given that the requirement for deacons to be "the husband of one wife" cannot actually exclude women from the role because of Phoebe, the same principle must apply to the role of elders. In other words, women aren't excluded from that either.

I guess you technically could translate Romans 16:1 as deaconess. The word diakonos “servant,” is used for the office of deacon (Phil. 1:1; 1 Tim. 3:8, 10, 12) as well as used generally (Rom. 15:8; 1 Cor. 3:5).
If you insist that Phoebe had an official office beyond the usual meaning of the word diakonos, you are welcome to convince us.

 

[Ella85]

Depends on the situation - although not in a congregation at church etc

 

[Dino246]

I guess you technically could translate Romans 16:1 as deaconess. The word diakonos “servant,” is used for the office of deacon (Phil. 1:1; 1 Tim. 3:8, 10, 12) as well as used generally (Rom. 15:8; 1 Cor. 3:5).
If you insist that Phoebe had an official office beyond the usual meaning of the word diakonos, you are welcome to convince us.

I don't need to convince anyone. Like I said, she was a deacon. Deacons must be "the husband of one wife". Either those two truths contradict, or the "husband" statement doesn't address gender, and therefore that statement doesn't address gender for elders either.

 

[Diakonos]

"the husband of one wife

Take a look at the Greek a little closer and study the relevant Hebrew idioms. If that means what you're saying it means, then not even Jesus would be qualified to be an elder.

 

[Dino246]

Take a look at the Greek a little closer and study the relevant Hebrew idioms. If that means what you're saying it means, then not even Jesus would be qualified to be an elder.

You have brought up one of the most cogent arguments against elders having to be married, as many claim the statement requires.