King James Bible vs. Modern Translations (Honoring The Deity of Jesus Christ)
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A
It isn't the text in their original languages that has changed over time. Rather, it is English that has changed. If you don't think that English has changed since the KJV was translated, then I challenge you to speak the same way that the KJV does, and properly.
This includes using thou/thee and ye/you properly, and all that goes with that. Try doing this in all your posts, and try speaking like this to everyone.
This includes using thou/thee and ye/you properly, and all that goes with that. Try doing this in all your posts, and try speaking like this to everyone.
A
I agree that Satan is at work, and has been since he rebelled against God. And I agree that we are not to underestimate his power or intellect. I don't think that most charismatics would disagree that Satan is at work today. The only people who would disagree would be those who do not believe that he exists.
I think that one of Satan's main attacks is against the church. He wants us to be divisive over things that are not really an issue so that he can blindside us, and deceive people over more important issues.
I respect people who prefer the KJV to any other translation. It's great if you want to use it, and you understand it, and you get a lot out of it. However, it is quite another thing to force one translation on everyone, and to attack other translations of the Bible, calling them Satanic.
If the NIV, ESV, NASB, CEV, and others were all inspired by Satan, wouldn't we expect the cults to use them instead of writing their own Bible "translations," such as the NWT? If the deity of Christ is hard to find in these translations, then wouldn't we assume that the JW's would have fewer issues with them?
The NIV is among the most popular modern English translations. However, those who claim to be theologically liberal Christians (aka progressive Christians) dislike the NIV. Why? Because they think it is too conservative. They think that it proclaims Jesus' deity too much. They certainly have no problem finding Jesus' deity in it.
Right. It is a totally different book.
It's awfully arrogant of us English speakers to claim that God's true word is a translation in our own language.
The King James Bible is God's true word. But so are other translations of the Bible. All true, legitimate translations from the original languages are God's true word.
How can a legitimate translation be a counterfeit?
Of the ones you've listed so far, the only one I don't like is the Message. I've understood it to be a paraphrase rather than a real translation, but I could be wrong. I'd have to read the preface to it to see if they actually translated.
Anyone who denies the real God is a minister of Satan. Humanism is satanic in the sense that it leads people away from Christ, and puts humanity in its place. It is still deceptive, and some people think it is righteousness.
Agreed that these men preach another gospel, and that in their preaching they are leading people away from God.
I agree that there are many nominal Christians out there in many different churches who are worshiping another god. They are worshiping a god to their liking.
I would argue that rock music in churches isn't a problem in and of itself. It all depends on the song, the lyrics, and how it is done in the congregation. There are some churches that use rock music, and that are very irreverent with it. There are others that use the same style of music, and are very reverent.
So the issue isn't the style of worship, but what people are doing with worship. Where their hearts are. What their definition of worship even is.
I fully agree with you that there are many, many churches teaching false doctrine and heresy, and that these things just seem to be getting worse.
If we are talking about theologically liberal/progressive Christians, then yes, this is true. But this is not the only error in the church today. It is a serious one that is growing, even in evangelical circles. Christians everywhere are abandoning sound doctrine. It looks different from congregation to congregation. But it is definitely happening.
I agree that biblical illiteracy is a major problem in the church today, but this occurs throughout the church. The problem is that Christians aren't familiar with the Bible in any translation, and they aren't reading it. This isn't the fault of the modern English translations. If anything, the modern English translations seek to alleviate this problem. The translators were hoping that by putting the Bible in modern English more people would be able to read and understand God's Word.
I have several different English translations of the Bible. None of them contradict each other. (Well, except for the NWT, but I don't regard that as a real translation anyway).
If the gospel is the same in all translations, then they cannot be Satanic.
And if the texts that these translations were based on is so corrupt, then why do they proclaim the same message as the KJV? Why are these translations all convey the same meaning as the KJV? Why do they all point to Jesus Christ, and His life, death, and bodily resurrection? Why do they all teach that Jesus is going to return?
I'm going to answer the rest of what you wrote in a minute. I just want to post my replies so far.
I think that one of Satan's main attacks is against the church. He wants us to be divisive over things that are not really an issue so that he can blindside us, and deceive people over more important issues.
I respect people who prefer the KJV to any other translation. It's great if you want to use it, and you understand it, and you get a lot out of it. However, it is quite another thing to force one translation on everyone, and to attack other translations of the Bible, calling them Satanic.
If the NIV, ESV, NASB, CEV, and others were all inspired by Satan, wouldn't we expect the cults to use them instead of writing their own Bible "translations," such as the NWT? If the deity of Christ is hard to find in these translations, then wouldn't we assume that the JW's would have fewer issues with them?
The NIV is among the most popular modern English translations. However, those who claim to be theologically liberal Christians (aka progressive Christians) dislike the NIV. Why? Because they think it is too conservative. They think that it proclaims Jesus' deity too much. They certainly have no problem finding Jesus' deity in it.
Right. It is a totally different book.
It's awfully arrogant of us English speakers to claim that God's true word is a translation in our own language.
The King James Bible is God's true word. But so are other translations of the Bible. All true, legitimate translations from the original languages are God's true word.
How can a legitimate translation be a counterfeit?
Of the ones you've listed so far, the only one I don't like is the Message. I've understood it to be a paraphrase rather than a real translation, but I could be wrong. I'd have to read the preface to it to see if they actually translated.
Anyone who denies the real God is a minister of Satan. Humanism is satanic in the sense that it leads people away from Christ, and puts humanity in its place. It is still deceptive, and some people think it is righteousness.
Agreed that these men preach another gospel, and that in their preaching they are leading people away from God.
I agree that there are many nominal Christians out there in many different churches who are worshiping another god. They are worshiping a god to their liking.
I would argue that rock music in churches isn't a problem in and of itself. It all depends on the song, the lyrics, and how it is done in the congregation. There are some churches that use rock music, and that are very irreverent with it. There are others that use the same style of music, and are very reverent.
So the issue isn't the style of worship, but what people are doing with worship. Where their hearts are. What their definition of worship even is.
I fully agree with you that there are many, many churches teaching false doctrine and heresy, and that these things just seem to be getting worse.
If we are talking about theologically liberal/progressive Christians, then yes, this is true. But this is not the only error in the church today. It is a serious one that is growing, even in evangelical circles. Christians everywhere are abandoning sound doctrine. It looks different from congregation to congregation. But it is definitely happening.
I agree that biblical illiteracy is a major problem in the church today, but this occurs throughout the church. The problem is that Christians aren't familiar with the Bible in any translation, and they aren't reading it. This isn't the fault of the modern English translations. If anything, the modern English translations seek to alleviate this problem. The translators were hoping that by putting the Bible in modern English more people would be able to read and understand God's Word.
I have several different English translations of the Bible. None of them contradict each other. (Well, except for the NWT, but I don't regard that as a real translation anyway).
If the gospel is the same in all translations, then they cannot be Satanic.
And if the texts that these translations were based on is so corrupt, then why do they proclaim the same message as the KJV? Why are these translations all convey the same meaning as the KJV? Why do they all point to Jesus Christ, and His life, death, and bodily resurrection? Why do they all teach that Jesus is going to return?
I'm going to answer the rest of what you wrote in a minute. I just want to post my replies so far.
2
There is no doubt that the Bible has people translating that did not translate clearly
All bibles are from the original word of God
all translators translate differently
All versions are a little different take on the truth.
just read all of them and look at the original word.
The Bible is infinite
the meanings are infinite
the best way to read the KJV is to click on EACH WORD and see ALL THE OTHER MEANING IT DOES MEAN
it relly lightens things up.
All bibles are from the original word of God
all translators translate differently
All versions are a little different take on the truth.
just read all of them and look at the original word.
The Bible is infinite
the meanings are infinite
the best way to read the KJV is to click on EACH WORD and see ALL THE OTHER MEANING IT DOES MEAN
it relly lightens things up.
A
The NWT attacks the deity of Christ. They do this consistently throughout their whole "translation."
If the translators behind the modern translators of the Bible wanted to attack the deity of Christ, then all of them would try to get rid of Jesus' deity whenever they could.
For example, if the translators behind the NASB had the goal of removing Jesus' deity, or minimizing it, they would write "he" instead of "He" every time it is referring to Jesus. In writing "He," they are acknowledging His deity.
As for the NIV, as I've already said, the liberal Christians don't like it because they think it is too conservative. They think it proclaims Jesus' deity too much.
I don't know a lot about some of the other translations listed, but I'm quite certain that the translation committees did not set out to remove Jesus' deity from their translations.
Jesus' deity can be proved using all legitimate translations.
If the translators behind the modern translators of the Bible wanted to attack the deity of Christ, then all of them would try to get rid of Jesus' deity whenever they could.
For example, if the translators behind the NASB had the goal of removing Jesus' deity, or minimizing it, they would write "he" instead of "He" every time it is referring to Jesus. In writing "He," they are acknowledging His deity.
As for the NIV, as I've already said, the liberal Christians don't like it because they think it is too conservative. They think it proclaims Jesus' deity too much.
I don't know a lot about some of the other translations listed, but I'm quite certain that the translation committees did not set out to remove Jesus' deity from their translations.
Jesus' deity can be proved using all legitimate translations.
![sHa_clap2[1].gif](/data/attachments/12/12801-c5b3209a244d2b84341ecbbc896a59de.jpg)
A
No language has ever been "completed." It is always changing. If English was completed in 1611, then there would have been no changes to it yet.
I give you the same challenge that I gave someone else. Use the language that is in the KJV in your communication for a whole week. This includes using thou/thee and ye/you properly, along with all the grammar rules that were in place at that time (word endings and such).
Have you ever read the prefaces in translations? All of them state the intentions of the translation committee. I would say that they were translated for the right reasons.
I give you the same challenge that I gave someone else. Use the language that is in the KJV in your communication for a whole week. This includes using thou/thee and ye/you properly, along with all the grammar rules that were in place at that time (word endings and such).
Have you ever read the prefaces in translations? All of them state the intentions of the translation committee. I would say that they were translated for the right reasons.
E
Originally Posted by Agricola
What I would like to know is why did OAK revive this thread from 2 years ago?
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Because it is still a relevant and recurring question?
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and on the positive side, at least they didn't start a new thread as if it had NEVER been discussed before............
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I'm reminded of an old saying (that I am just making up) "relevancy is in the mind of the reveler."
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Because it is still a relevant and recurring question?
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and on the positive side, at least they didn't start a new thread as if it had NEVER been discussed before............
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I'm reminded of an old saying (that I am just making up) "relevancy is in the mind of the reveler."
Again Arwen, Satan is very subtil, so he is not going to remove every reference to Jesus' deity in his bibles. But he will still attack his deity.
The NASB is just another Satanic counterfeit. Oh by the way, do you knw that the NASB says that God was deceived by the Israelites?
Psalm 78:36
New American Standard Bible
But they deceived Him with their mouth And lied to Him with their tongue.
God cannot be deceived Arwen. God knows everything.
Let's see what the real Bible says:
King James Bible
Nevertheless they did flatter him with their mouth, and they lied unto him with their tongues. - Psalm 78:36
The Israelites flattered God, but they did not deceive God.
You'll have a hard time proving to a Jehovah's Witness that Jesus is God using a modern translation.
1 Timothy 3:16
New International Version
Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.
New Living Translation
Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith: Christ was revealed in a human body and vindicated by the Spirit. He was seen by angels and announced to the nations. He was believed in throughout the world and taken to heaven in glory.
English Standard Version
Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.
New American Standard Bible
By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.
[HR][/HR]
Now let's see what God's true word says in 1 Timothy 3:16:
King James Bible
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
[HR][/HR]
Let's look at Micah 5:2 for our next example:
Micah 5:2
New International Version
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."
New Living Translation
But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, are only a small village among all the people of Judah. Yet a ruler of Israel will come from you, one whose origins are from the distant past.
English Standard Version
But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days.
[HR][/HR]
Again, let us now see what God's true word says in Micah 5:2:
King James Bible
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
I suggest you stick with God's pure and perfect word, the King James Bible.
[HR][/HR]
Also, let's look at the New World Translation and see how it lines up with the modern Vatican versions:
1 Timothy 3:16 (New World Translation):
16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh,+ was declared righteous in spirit,+ appeared to angels,+ was preached about among nations,+ was believed upon in the world,+ was received up in glory.’
Micah 5:2 (New World Translation):
2 And you, O Beth′le·hem Eph′ra·thah,+The one too little to be among the thousands* of Judah,
From you will come out for me the one to be ruler in Israel,+Whose origin is from ancient times, from the days of long ago.
Matthew 18:11
New Living Translation
English Standard Version
New World Translation
11* ——
Look at how the NWT and the NLT, NIV, and ESV all remove Matthew 18:11.Let us look at another example.
Acts 8:37
New International VersionNew Living Translation
English Standard Version
New World Translation
37* ——
Again, they all remove Acts 8:37. Why? Because the text of the NWT is based primarily on the Vaticanus (B) manuscript. And surprise, surprise! So are the modern versions such as the NIV, ESV, NLT, CEV, NEB, etc. In fact, nearly all the modern versions produced since 1881 are translated from the corrupt Vaticanus (B) manuscript. The other corrupt manuscript they are based on is Siniaticus.
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A
Really? I'm going to use the NASB for this example, but you could use any translation and do the same thing. I'm going to bold the parts I want to emphasize.
Please note that the translators added in headings for clarity....
From John chapter 1:1-5, 14, 18
[h=3]The Deity of Jesus Christ[/h]1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [SUP]2 [/SUP][SUP][a][/SUP]He was in the beginning with God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. [SUP]4 [/SUP]In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. [SUP]5 [/SUP]The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not [SUP][b][/SUP]comprehend it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the Word became flesh, and [SUP][k][/SUP]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [SUP][l][/SUP]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him
My comment -- this is clearly showing Jesus' full deity. There is no ambiguity. The translators even added in the heading, "The Deity of Jesus Christ." If they were trying to water down His deity, they wouldn't have titled this section this way.
2 Peter 1:1
1 [SUP][a][/SUP]Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have received a faith of the same [SUP][b][/SUP]kind as ours, [SUP][c][/SUP]by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
My comment:
The way that the translators punctuated this verse leaves no room to doubt the meaning that they intended to convey. God and Savior are both titles that refer to Jesus Christ. They wouldn't have had to add the comma in, as the meaning would be the same, but they wanted to be certain that there would be no confusion. The comma adds clarity.
Hebrews 1:5-12
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For to which of the angels did He ever say,
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again,
“I will be a Father to Him
And He shall be a Son to Me”?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And [SUP][f][/SUP]when He again brings the firstborn into [SUP][g][/SUP]the world, He says,
“And let all the angels of God worship Him.”
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And of the angels He says,
“Who makes His angels winds,
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But of the Son He says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
And the righteous scepter is the scepter of [SUP][h][/SUP]His kingdom.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And,
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]They will perish, but You remain;
And they all will become old like a garment,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And like a mantle You will roll them up;
Like a garment they will also be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.”
My comment: These are very clear about Jesus' deity. First of all, only God can be worshiped. Second of all, the NASB translators make it very clear when the NT is quoting the OT by putting those verses in all caps. The passages that are quoted in Hebrews from the OT are clearly talking about God. So it is affirming Jesus' deity.
Colossians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP]See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, [SUP][a][/SUP]rather than according to Christ. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
My comment -- this is a clear statement about Jesus' deity. It is a statement that Jesus is fully God.
There are more verses that I could use, but all of these passages point to Jesus' deity, and I can show that the translators purposely were trying to convey Jesus' deity, not diminish it.
If this evidence doesn't convince you that the translators value and were trying to promote Jesus' deity, then nothing will.
R
The reason the differences occur in the new translations is they are translated from the nestle aland 27 edition of the greek New Testament. This mss was was compiled by using much older mss. In the textus receptus ( which is what the Kjv is based) scholars believe that scribes added things, and misread things. The early mss are much more reliable , according to most scholars , unless you are a ruckmanite( which are not scholars at all in my opinion) a ruckmanite says it is the Kjv even when there is proof otherwise. Logic is thrown out the window and critical scholarship is seen as evil. They will claim that every translation is of the devil except the Kjv. Even the nkjv when it's scriptural basis is the same as the kjv.
A
Whenever we read the Bible, we need to read the context it's in -- in whatever translation that we are reading from. If we read both translations in context, the meaning is the same. Both the NASB and the KJV are literal translations. We have to take that into account when we read them. Sometimes the words the translators chose may not be the best choices to convey the real meaning.
Deceive - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
[h=2]de·ceive[/h] verb \di-ˈsēv\ : to make (someone) believe something that is not true
de·ceivedde·ceiv·ing
[h=2]Full Definition of DECEIVE[/h]transitive verb
1
archaic : ensnare
2
a obsolete : to be false to
b archaic : to fail to fulfill
3
obsolete : cheat
4
: to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid
5
archaic : to while away
intransitive verb
: to practice deceit; also : to give a false impression <appearances can deceive>
— de·ceiv·er noun
— de·ceiv·ing·ly adverb
When we usually use the word "deceive" we usually mean "to make (someone) believe something that is not true." However, there are other definitions and uses of the word. In any event, I think most people reading this verse in the NASB know that God knows everything, including what is in our hearts.
I honestly think that the translators of the NASB used the word "deceive" here to mean the same thing as the KJV translators used when they said "flatter." The idea is the same -- people spoke falsely to Him.
I admit that this isn't strong evidence to support Jesus' deity here, but it says "the living God" in the NASB in verse 15. Let me check in the other translations. It's the same in the NIV, the ESV, and the NLT. I'm pretty sure that "living God" is a reference to Jesus, since He bodily rose from the dead, and it is a statement about the resurrection.
Let's add the NASB here. Why was it left off this list?:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]“[SUP][a][/SUP]But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
[SUP][b][/SUP]His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity.”
I see, because the NASB here says that Jesus is eternal...that He has no beginning.
But you can arrive at the same conclusion in the other translations by reading verses such as John 1:1, Hebrews 7:3, and other verses.
At the very least, when reading other translations of Micah 5:2, we can see that Jesus had preexistence before the incarnation, and that it was a for a very long time. This isn't particularly a strong case for His deity, but a person reading it might conclude that He might be eternal. The verses in these other translations certainly do not say, "Jesus is not eternal."
The KJV isn't perfect. No translation is. But I think this is a matter that we're never going to agree on.