The Doctrine of Hell: Under Attack

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valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is irrelevant to the question. It deals only with a temporary state, not with eternal torment.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
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The Doctrine of "Hell"...
A subject that we need to treat with "fear and trembling!" Phil 2v12

Some thoughts Here on it...
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Hello Undergrace,

People in heaven would not be able to see people in Hades/Sheol, which is under the earth. When the rich man saw Abraham and Lazarus afar off, the scripture states that there was a great chasm fixed in between that place of paradise and the place of torment, which was on the other side. Some have erroneously interpreted that Abraham and Lazarus were in heaven, but the scripture puts them all under the earth in the same vicinity, both places separated by that great chasm.

Also, while Sheol/Hades is under the earth, the lake of fire is in a completely different location, which is never revealed. [/COLOR]
So (on your interpretation) only the Lamb and the holy angels enjoy watching them suffer? (Rev 14.10)
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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They were beheaded in the Tribulation......


This group under the altar are those who will have been killed during the first 3 1/2 years of the seven year period, where those (their fellow servants and brothers) are killed during the last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. These are those who will have been beheaded.

I mean no disrespect JaumeJ, so forgive me if I have offended in any way. I'm just sharing what I have studied for so many years. Soul-sleep is not scriptural. The reference to "sleep" is referring to the body only. When Paul says that he is torn between the two i.e. remaining in the body or going to die so that he can be in the presence of the Lord, he says that to die and be with Christ is better by far, which would infer conscious awareness, not sleeping.

Currently, all of the believers who have died from the on-set of the church until the present, their spirits are conscious and aware in the Lord's presence. When the resurrection takes place, the Lord will bring with him those spirits who will have been in his presence and they will be reunited with their resurrected bodies. Immediately after that, those believers who are still alive will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them. From there the whole group will be taken to the Father's house in fulfillment of John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-18.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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All believers I know, myself included, are warned not to add to nor take away from the prophesies of the Book of Revelation.

Without "interpreting" the people under the altar, I have always thought they were asleep, but I know I could be wrong. The entire recounting strikes me as an allegory until I truly understand it. Again, without being pedant about it, I have always naturally thought they, like all, are aseep. I could be dead wrong in my understanding, but I will not say it is the way things are for others

While you are interpreting the Word, namely Revelation, will you share with me the meaning of the name of the beast, 666 because I am still mystified by it. I know letters have numerical equivalentsin Hebrew and other languages, but I still do not know with any certainty what that number truly means.






"
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been."

Well for one, they are having a conversation with the Lord and their concern is how long before they are avenged in regards to those on the earth who killed them. So the fact that they are speaking with the Lord and are given robes to wear would be a good indication that in their spirits they are conscious and aware.

And let's not forget about the other examples, such as Moses and Elijah appearing with Christ when he was transfigured, that Jesus said to the man crucified with him "today you will be with me in paradise." You have to be conscious and aware to experience paradise. Then there is the rich man and Lazarus both having died and yet their spirits being found in Sheol/Hades.

The examples of conscious awareness of the spirit/soul after death is found in many places in scripture.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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While you are interpreting the Word, namely Revelation, will you share with me the meaning of the name of the beast, 666 because I am still mystified by it. I know letters have numerical equivalentsin Hebrew and other languages, but I still do not know with any certainty what that number truly means.


If I knew that I'd write a book and retire.
:cool:

But in regards to the number of his name, I believe that it will be encoded into the mark, which I believe will replace the swiping of cards and cell phone bank apps. Just as the cards have codes included in the magnetic strip or chip, I also believe that the number of the beasts name will be apart of the code contained within the mark.

The mark is not only going to be necessary for electronic crediting and debiting (buying and selling) but will identify the user of that mark as being aligned with the owner of the mark, the beast. To be clear, I believe that the mark will contain the number of the beast encoded within every mark, so that the person who has one will be uniquely identified as giving allegiance to the beast.

I hope that this is beneficial
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who
had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
Well for one, they all are not even be dead as of yet,
the 5th seal has not even been opened yet. [a future vision]

- like an example here

Genesis 4:10 (KJV)
And he said, What hast thou done?
the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

So Abel was dead, in the ground, but his blood cried out,
that God heard it. does not mean Abel was alive and talking.
 
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prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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While you are interpreting the Word, namely Revelation, will you share with me the meaning of the
name of the beast, 666 because I am still mystified by it. I know letters have numerical equivalentsin
Hebrew and other languages, but I still do not know with any certainty what that number truly means.
The Number of the ‘Beast’—666—Whose Number Is It?

Here are all the scriptures speaking directly of this number:

“And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark,
or the name of the beast,or the number of his name.

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:
for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six”
(Revelation 13:17-18).

“And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten
the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the
number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God”
(Revelation 15:2).

Note From these scriptures, we have the following definite points:

1. The beast has a number and may be identified, if we have wisdom,
by this number.

2. The number is 666.

3. We are told to count this number—that is, add it up. The same Greek word
is used elsewhere only in Luke 14:28: Count the cost.

4. This number, 666, is the number of the beast. The only Bible interpretation
of this symbol, “beast,” is a kingdom or the king who rules it and, therefore,
really is the kingdom (Daniel 7:17-18, 22-24, 27).

Therefore 666 must be the number of the kingdom, or government, or empire,
as well as that of the king who founds or rules it.

5. The expression “the name of the beast, or the number of his name” makes plain
that the number 666 is the number of the name of the kingdom or empire.

6. The expression “it is the number of a man” shows we must also count this number
in the name of the king, or ruler, over the kingdom identified as the “beast.”

The Beast Is Not the Woman [a church]

In the 17th chapter of Revelation we find a beast, and a woman—a great, wealthy
but fallen woman—who was riding the beast. The Bible describes the symbol “woman”
to mean a church (see 2?Corinthians 11:2; Revelation 19:7; Ephesians 5:22-27).

The beast of Revelation 13 is not the woman who rode the beast
—the beast is the government, and the woman is a church.

The beast of Revelation 13 is the Roman Empire!

This beast had a deadly wound (Revelation 13:3). That means the beast ceased altogether
to exist or function as it had since 31 b.c. Yet its deadly wound was later healed, after which
(verse 5) it continued to exist another 1,260 years!

The Founder of Rome

The founder and first king of Rome was Romulus.
The Roman Empire was named after him.
His name, the name of a man, also is the name of the kingdom.
And every citizen in the kingdom bears the same name—a Roman.

When John wrote this Revelation, telling us to count the number of the beast,
he wrote in the Greek language. Consequently, we should look for this name,
and the number 666, in this language recognized in the Bible, not in the Latin.

We are all familiar with the Roman numerals, where letters are used for numbers.
All understand that I is 1, v is 5, x is 10, etc. But many do not know that the Greek
language, in which the book of Revelation was written, also uses letters for numbers.

In the Greek this name was understood in the second century a.d. to have originally
been spelled Lateinos. It signifies “Latin man” or “the name of Latium,”
from which region the Romans derived their origin and their language.

This word, too, signifies “Roman.” In the Greek, l is 30, a is 1, t is 300, e is 5,
I is 10, n is 50, o is 70, s is 200. Count these figures. They count to exactly 666!

It is indeed no coincidence that the name of the kingdom, its founder and first king,
and of each man in the kingdom, counts to exactly 666!

Certainly the beast stands identified!

The forehead is where our conscious thoughts reside.
The right hand is where our works are manifested.
The mark is spiritual, in the sense that we can be obsessed with the beast.
The mark is physical, in the sense that we can manifest our works on it's behalf.

The forehead is where we make our decision, we choose to worship the beast
or we choose true worship God, in the hand means by our actions or non action
we make a choice to worship either one.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Well for one, they all are not even be dead as of yet,
the 5th seal has not even been opened yet. [a future vision]


Genesis 4:10 (KJV)
And he said, What hast thou done?
the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

So Abel was dead, in the ground, but his blood cried out,
that God heard it.
Hello Prove-All,

Yes, I understand that they have not yet been killed, but I was speaking as from the time frame of after they will have been killed, when they will be under the altar in heaven. My point being that their bodies are dead, but their spirits are shown to be conscious and aware under the altar in heaven and not sleeping.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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5. The expression “the name of the beast, or the number of his name” makes plain that the number 666 is the number of the name of the kingdom or empire.


"for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six”

The scripture states that it is the number of a man, not a kingdom or empire.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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The forehead is where our conscious thoughts reside.
The right hand is where our works are manifested.
The mark is spiritual, in the sense that we can be obsessed with the beast.
The mark is physical, in the sense that we can manifest our works on it's behalf.

The forehead is where we make our decision, we choose to worship the beast
or we choose true worship God, in the hand means by our actions or non action
we make a choice to worship either one.


The above is a Seventh Day Adventist teaching. The mark will be a literal mark, as we are already seeing the technology for this. Sweden has been implanting chips since 2014, one of its purposes being to make purchases. Now we have a company here in Wisconsin offering chip implants to their employees to make purchases from their vending machines. I am sure that this technology will find its way into the expos and seminars, that is, if it hasn't already done so. This means that we will be seeing more and more people begin to make purchases as it spreads to all businesses, replacing the card swiping and cell phone bank apps. If you haven't already done so, please click on the links below:

Swedish office staff offered implants to access facilities - BBC News

https://www.bing.com/videos/search? q=i+put+a+chip+in+my+hand+to+replace+my+wallet&view=detail&mid=10B69C5293894ECC971F10B69C5293894ECC971F&FORM=VIRE

Company to install microchips in employees
 
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JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,281
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Again, having read and kept to myself all the writings on 666, my question was, and remains, purely rhetorical.

I will leave the advanced interpretation of Revelation and Danial to those who have their own ideas.

Meanwhile, Daniel and Revelation will be refealed to all in God's time........

Anyone here with the accurated and knowing understanding of these two books will be known by lal who believe .
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again,
and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth?
for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

-Christ said he will come again, [one more time] not to return twice again.
The seventh angel sounds-Kingdoms of this current world become Christs

Jesus Christ: He said He would come again. After He was crucified, God raised Him from
the dead after three days and three nights (Matthew 12:40; Acts 2:32; 1?Corinthians 15:3-4

He ascended to the throne of God, headquarters of the government of
the universe (Acts 1:9-11; Hebrews 1:3; 8:1; 10:12; Revelation 3:21).

The living Christ is coming as “King of kings and Lord of lords” (Revelation 19:11-21),
to put down the rebellion of warring nations (Revelation 17:14), and establish God’s
world-ruling government over all nations (Daniel 2:44; 7:9, 13-14, 18, 22, 27; Isaiah 9:7).

He pictured Himself as the young nobleman going away (to heaven) to be coronated,
and to return to Earth (Luke 19:12-27). He will then be on the Earth—Zechariah 14:3-4,
1 Thessalonians 4:16. “If I go and prepare a place [position, office, habitation] for you,
I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also”

When Christ returns, he will continue down to this earth, not go backup to heaven.
as for 1 Thes.4:13, it backs up the fact that the saints are asleep, not awake.

verse 16 says
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of
the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

-this says at the last trump the dead shall be changed, not there already alive in heaven.
 
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prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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Acts 2:29 (KJV)
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David,
that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

-David is still dead and buried in the grave.

Psalms 17:15 (KJV)
As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness:
I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

-David said when he awakings, he would be like God,
[with thy likeness] and when does this happen ?

1 John 3:2 (KJV)
Beloved, now are we the sons of God,
and it doth not yet appear what we shall be:

but we know that, when he shall appear, [we shall be like him];
for we shall see him as he is.



.And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament;
and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
 
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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth?
for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

-Christ said he will come again, [one more time] not to return twice again.
The seventh angel sounds-Kingdoms of this current world become Christs


This is the misunderstanding. When Christ returns to gather the church, he will not be returning to the earth, but only meeting the resurrected and the living who will be changed in the air. He then takes the entire church back to the Father's house. At the end of that seven years is when Christ will return to the earth to end the age and the church whom he will have previously gathered will be with him when he returns.

The gathering of the church = Jesus does not return to the earth, but only appears in the air to gather the church and return to heaven with his bride.

The Second coming = Christ physically returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. At this time the beast and the false prophet are captured, all those nations and their armies who gathered against him are killed, Satan is thrown into and restricted in the Abyss during the thousand years.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Hi Grace,

Not true. Read towards the end. The rich man lived an unrepentant life. And Jews were to care for the poor, something which he didn't do.

And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ But Abraham *said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Hi Desertsrose,


That scripture no where says that the rich man lived an unrepented life - that's reading into the scriptures. The rich man simply asked Abraham to go tell his brothers about this place.

But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Trying to live by the Law will always bring failure because they are eating from the wrong tree.

Works do not save us - Christ alone by His grace and finished work on the cross is what saves us. Relying on the works of the law will always bring failure.

There is definitely a hell and for those that reject Christ's sacrifice for their sins will experience that.

IMO - This story about the rich man and Lazarus is definitely a parable talking about the Jewish system but you are free to have your own opinions. The gospel of the grace of God in Christ is what we live by now.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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Hello Prove-All,

Yes, I understand that they have not yet been killed, but I was speaking as from the time frame of after they will have been killed, when they will be under the altar in heaven. My point being that their bodies are dead, but their spirits are shown to be conscious and aware under the altar in heaven and not sleeping.
that would conflict though with verses Sleeping in the grave in the bible

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth;
in that very day his thoughts perish.

For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee:
they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

For in death there is no remembrance of thee:
in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee?
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,
neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Job asks: If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of
my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which
all that are in the graves shall hear his voice

So [David slept] with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

15As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness:
I shall be satisfied, when I [King David] awake, with [thy likeness].

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet
shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead
shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of
the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to
everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither
have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
-
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it:
because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it:
for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it:
for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold,
a greater than Solomon is here.

-

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man which is in heaven.Sleeping in the grave

25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead
shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of
the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

[the spirit in a man]

People use this verse to say they go to heaven,
at the same time others go elsewhere, like hell.

This verse refers to everyone human , sinner or saint alike,
not one or the other.

-

Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV)
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father,
so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


Romans 6:23 (KJV)
For the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.



[h=3]Malachi 4:3[/h]
And ye shall tread down the wicked;
for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this,
saith the Lord of hosts.
 
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Aug 15, 2009
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But it DOESN'T SAY 'in Hell'. They will experience the wrath of God.

All I ask is ONE Scripture that clearly says that ordinary people will be tortured in Hell/the lake of fire for ever.
Revelation 20:10
New International Version
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

New Living Translation
Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

English Standard Version
and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Berean Study Bible
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


New American Standard Bible
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Ahh yes but what is that "hell"

That is the question.

Hi Desertsrose,


That scripture no where says that the rich man lived an unrepented life - that's reading into the scriptures. The rich man simply asked Abraham to go tell his brothers about this place.

But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Trying to live by the Law will always bring failure because they are eating from the wrong tree.

Works do not save us - Christ alone by His grace and finished work on the cross is what saves us. Relying on the works of the law will always bring failure.

There is definitely a hell and for those that reject Christ's sacrifice for their sins will experience that.

IMO - This story about the rich man and Lazarus is definitely a parable talking about the Jewish system but you are free to have your own opinions. The gospel of the grace of God in Christ is what we live by now.