Thief on the Cross

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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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The Old Testament saints were saved just like the New Testaments saints, by grace through faith. Why in the world did the Apostle Paul teach at Romans 4:1-3 that Abraham was justified by faith? In fact, your guy in the video mentioned Job, David and others. Look what Paul said at Romans 4:6, "just as David also speaks of the blessing (what blessing?) upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness APART FROM WORKS."

So, if the thief under the old covenant was saved without being baptised why would God make it harder under the new covenant to get water baptised (which is a work) or your not saved unless you do?
Amen! A common argument used in an attempt to "get around" the thief on the cross being saved through faith apart from water baptism is, "the thief was not subject to baptism because he died before Pentecost." So let's see, after Pentecost, in Acts 2:38, we read - "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and before Pentecost, in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3, we read - John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

In both cases we see repent, baptized/baptism/remission of sins. So in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3, was this baptism of repentance FOR (in order to obtain) the remission of sins was it or FOR (in regards to/on the basis of) the remission of sins received upon repentance? *It would have to be the latter in order to agree with the Pentecost argument of water salvationists. In Matthew 3:11, we read: I baptize you with water FOR repentance.. If translated "in order to obtain" the verse does not make sense. I baptize you with water FOR (in order to obtain) repentance? o_O or I baptize you with water FOR (in regards to/on the basis of) repentance? (y)

Whatever baptism is "for" in Acts 2:38, it's "for" in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3 - "in regards to" remission of sins received upon repentance. See how the water baptism is not necessary for salvation before Pentecost but is necessary for salvation after Pentecost argument doesn't hold water? Before AND after Pentecost, salvation is through belief/faith "apart from water baptism" (Genesis 15:6; Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17-18; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:2-6; 5:1; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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I don't know about your experience. But for me: Speaking in tongues did not happen at water baptism, it happened later. How about you?
I received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues before I was water baptized in Jesus name.
 

MendedSoul

Well-known member
Sep 10, 2019
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Have you ever wondered how the thief on the cross entered into Paradise without following the New Testament covenantal responsibilities outlined in Acts 2:38?:
“Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Even if the thief wanted to be obedient, coming down off of the cross was not an option. How then is it possible that Jesus could tell the thief that he would be with Him that day in Paradise?

In order to be saved, the man beside Jesus would have been responsible to meet God’s Old Testament commands because Jesus had not died and resurrected yet.

The New Testament rebirth requirements began after Jesus’ death, burial, resurrection and ascension into the heavens. We know this because on the day that the church was born, Peter stated that we must repent, be water baptized in Jesus name, and receive the Holy Ghost in order to be saved. The Holy Ghost was not sent until after Jesus ascended back into Heaven and poured His blood upon the mercy seat. (Hebrews 9:11-12) After Jesus entered the Holy of Holies in the Heavenlies, the Holy Ghost (gift of the Holy Ghost) was then poured out upon the people present on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:3-4)

When did the New Covenant officially begin? We know from scripture that John the Baptist’s ministry was to prepare the way of the Lord. He was referred to as the Baptist, because in addition to proclaiming the coming of the Lord, his ministry was to initiate the concept of water baptism. Water baptism was necessary for the remission of sin. (Acts 2:38) However, sins could not be remitted without the shedding of blood. After Jesus’ blood was shed it had to be poured onto the mercy seat. This had not taken place prior to John’s ministry.

Jesus appeared after His resurrection and fulfilling the mission as our high priest, returned for a period of 40 days and then ascended back into Heaven. The New Testament church had officially begun. After this occurred, individuals who had been baptized by John were commanded to be re-baptized in Jesus name. (Acts 19:2-6)

Keep in mind that a Will and Testament becomes valid only after one’s death. This being said, you may wonder what the thief’s covenantal responsibility would entail. The Old Testament was still in effect at the time of the thief’s death.

Each person, including the thief on the cross, that perished before Jesus entered into the holy place and obtained eternal redemption for mankind, was judged by the Old Testament mandates. The obligation to God then was to have faith in the coming Messiah and to be circumcised.

Genesis 17:10 states, “This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised... He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.”

The New Testament parallel of the Old Testament circumcision is found in Colossians Chapter 2: “In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”
I can't imagine Jesus not accepting the thief under any circumstance at that moment as He was being crucified for that very reason, to save us.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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Greetings Wansvic,

You are answering your own question. The man on the cross was saved as all are saved and that by having faith in Christ alone, not baptism, no works, no by following the law, etc. When the man said, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom," he was confessing Christ. That becomes apparent because Jesus was hanging on the cross and dying.

Being saved only from Pentecost on is not true. Remember, when Jesus healed the paralytic, for the benefit of the Pharisees and those with them, Jesus said, "Your sins are forgiven." Take up your matt and go home. The same is true of Cornelius household, who while Peter was still speaking the Holy Spirit fell upon them and they all spoke in languages and prophesied and that without first being baptized, doing any good works or keeping the law. Later, Peter said that God who knows the heart cleansed their hearts through faith.

When Jesus said to the thief, "Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in paradise," He was referring to the departures of their spirits at the time of death to that place of comfort/paradise in Hades where Abraham and Lazarus were as revealed in the event of the rich man and Lazarus. Hades had two areas. On one side a place of comfort/paradise which is where the spirits of Abraham, Lazarus and all the other OT saints were, which was separated by a great chasm. On the other side of that chasm is where the rich man and all the other spirits of the unrighteous dead were/are in torment in flame.
Of course there were people saved prior to Pentecost; however, there is a difference between what was required in the OT and NT dispensations of time. The NT requirements to partake in a spiritual re-birth were not put in place until after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. The thief died well before Jesus was buried and resurrected.

The NT church was given an exceptional opportunity to be re-born spiritually by obeying the instructions given at Pentecost: “Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Everyone from Pentecost forward is living in the NT dispensation of time and as such are required to be obedient to the instructions given to become born again spiritually.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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I believe the difference is what was revealed, for before and afdter by faith Salvation is revealed it seems, otherwise no one befor Jesus, Yeshua, would be in the Kingdom.....
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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Could it be because a repent heart is of more value than following the rules? Is it because the Lord decides who will go to paradise and not what is written?
In light of the Word as stated by Jesus Himself, the Word is non-negotiable. Everyone will be judged by it:

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." John 12:48-50
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Of course there were people saved prior to Pentecost; however, there is a difference between what was required in the OT and NT dispensations of time. The NT requirements to partake in a spiritual re-birth were not put in place until after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. The thief died well before Jesus was buried and resurrected.

The NT church was given an exceptional opportunity to be re-born spiritually by obeying the instructions given at Pentecost: “Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Everyone from Pentecost forward is living in the NT dispensation of time and as such are required to be obedient to the instructions given to become born again spiritually.
Well, whatever way you want to slice it, the thief was saved by having faith in Jesus, who had indeed shed his blood and was shedding His blood at the time the thief asked Him to remember Him when He comes into His kingdom. Obviously the man was not saved by keeping the law, by being baptized, good works or anything else except for faith in the Lord.

Baptism is not required for salvation. If it was, Paul would have been committing sin when he said, "the Lord did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel."

The bottom line is that, the thief was saved by grace through faith in Jesus and by faith alone.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
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Anaheim, Cali.
In light of the Word as stated by Jesus Himself, the Word is non-negotiable. Everyone will be judged by it:

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." John 12:48-50
Not negotiable for us. God is sovereign and the author of the word and Jesus is the word made flesh and God at the same time. He made the laws for us. Whatever he has made clean let no man call unclean. When the Levites lost their authority the law then; Became we must become circumcised of the heart. The law was a curse and still is to those who put the law before grace.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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Not negotiable for us. God is sovereign and the author of the word and Jesus is the word made flesh and God at the same time. He made the laws for us. Whatever he has made clean let no man call unclean. When the Levites lost their authority the law then; Became we must become circumcised of the heart. The law was a curse and still is to those who put the law before grace.
My point was that instructions were given specifically to those gathered on the Day of Pentecost ushering in what was required of the the NT church.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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Well, whatever way you want to slice it, the thief was saved by having faith in Jesus, who had indeed shed his blood and was shedding His blood at the time the thief asked Him to remember Him when He comes into His kingdom. Obviously the man was not saved by keeping the law, by being baptized, good works or anything else except for faith in the Lord.

Baptism is not required for salvation. If it was, Paul would have been committing sin when he said, "the Lord did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel."

The bottom line is that, the thief was saved by grace through faith in Jesus and by faith alone.
You are expressing an opinion.

The Word says baptism saves. (1 Peter 3:21) And as far as Paul is concerned, he did baptize but that was not his primary ministry. His reason for making the comment is due to frustration that people were placing significance in the person that administered their baptism. (1 Cor 1:12-15) Paul told them to keep the focus where it should be, on Jesus, the one that they had been "buried" with:

Col 2:11-13
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Rom 6:4-6
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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Have you ever wondered how the thief on the cross entered into Paradise without following the New Testament covenantal responsibilities outlined in Acts 2:38?:
Another tiresome thread promoting salvation through water baptism. Were you to meet Dismas, he would say that your doctrine is dismal.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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You are expressing an opinion.

The Word says baptism saves. (1 Peter 3:21) And as far as Paul is concerned, he did baptize but that was not his primary ministry. His reason for making the comment is due to frustration that people were placing significance in the person that administered their baptism. (1 Cor 1:12-15) Paul told them to keep the focus where it should be, on Jesus, the one that they had been "buried" with:

Col 2:11-13
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Rom 6:4-6
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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What are you talking about that, "this is your opinion?" How about the "opinion" of Jesus Christ? ahwatukee's opinion is based on correct facts while your opinion is based on a misunderstanding of verses. I also know you didn't come up with your "so-called" opinion by yourself but from the writings or videos of your church.

There was a reason why I ask you the question point blank was the thief on the cross saved, yes or no? You said yes and then proceeded to say, "but" your not understanding how the circumstances are different in the NT as opposed to the OT. Really!

The model that Jesus Christ set was without any strings. The thief acknowledged his wrong doing which means he repented. Jesus saw his heart and told the thief he will be in Paradise with Him that same day.

Now, we also have a model in the New Testament at Acts 10:45-48 and here is the question for you? Did Cornelius according to vs45, "And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, (why were they amazed?) because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also."

So here's the question wansvic? Did Ccornelius receive the "gift" of the Holy Spirit before or after he was water baptized? Also keep in mind it was a "gift." That word means, "a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present. Now it's your turn to go to your church mentors and find out how they address these verses by saying they don't mean what they say. :rolleyes: PS: I already know what they are going to tell you so keep the word "conjuction" in mind. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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I also know you didn't come up with your "so-called" opinion by yourself but from the writings or videos of your church...
Now it's your turn to go to your church mentors and find out how they address these verses by saying they don't mean what they say. :rolleyes: PS: I already know what they are going to tell you so keep the word "conjuction" in mind. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
You don't know me or what I do or don't do. I have no need to go to writings or videos from some church organization to form an opinion. Spending time in the Word and in prayer is the only way to rightly divide the Word of Truth. That is where to search for answers not some church denomination's beliefs.

I shared a couple videos from the Internet the last couple days because I thought others would find them useful. Guess not.

Just because our understanding differs doesn't justify your being rude.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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You don't know me or what I do or don't do. I have no need to go to writings or videos from some church organization to form an opinion. Spending time in the Word and in prayer is the only way to rightly divide the Word of Truth. That is where to search for answers not some church denomination's beliefs.

I shared a couple videos from the Internet the last couple days because I thought others would find them useful. Guess not.

Just because our understanding differs doesn't justify your being rude.
If I offended you I humbly apologize. That is not my intention, I'm just passionate of what I believe and sometimes I go overboard. Again, I'm sorry. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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If I offended you I humbly apologize. That is not my intention, I'm just passionate of what I believe and sometimes I go overboard. Again, I'm sorry. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Thank you for your kind words. My intention is to help and not hinder others and at the sometime I want to learn from others. Thanks again.
 
Feb 28, 2016
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please, understand that in the original scriptures, there were NO (dots or commas)-
Jesus said today, you shall be with Me',,, NOT THIS VERY TODAY, He said what He said that day
which did NOT MEAN THAT VERY DAY, but EVENTUALLY he would stand before Him in the
DAY of JUDGMENT, (Just like the rest of us all)...
JOHN 3:13.
And no man has ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even The Son of man which is in heaven.

11PETER 3:4.
And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.