Verse for "once saved always saved"?
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No my translation of (1 John 3:9-10) is no mistranslation. Your misunderstanding of the following scripture that is in error.
(1 John 1: 8-10)[SUP] “[/SUP]If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”
You need to see John was saying if one says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.
One who sins is of the devil Apostle John tells us that.
(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God. In this way we distinguish the children of God from the children of the devil: anybody not living a holy life and not loving his brother is no child of God’s.”
(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”
(1John 3:8) “Whoever lives sinfully belongs to the devil, since the devil has been a sinner from the beginning. This was the purpose of the appearing of the Son of God, to undo the work of the devil.”
(1 John 1: 8-10)[SUP] “[/SUP]If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”
You need to see John was saying if one says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.
One who sins is of the devil Apostle John tells us that.
(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God. In this way we distinguish the children of God from the children of the devil: anybody not living a holy life and not loving his brother is no child of God’s.”
(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”
(1John 3:8) “Whoever lives sinfully belongs to the devil, since the devil has been a sinner from the beginning. This was the purpose of the appearing of the Son of God, to undo the work of the devil.”
you need to read this post:
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-other-than-romans-8-1-lol-6.html#post2647627
follow the link. if you think what is written in that post is wrong, then you have a responsibility to the people of God to carefully explain why.
if what is written in that post is correct, then you've got some responsibilities too.
that post was written for all of us - but i am sure that it is especially pertinent to you in particular.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-other-than-romans-8-1-lol-6.html#post2647627
follow the link. if you think what is written in that post is wrong, then you have a responsibility to the people of God to carefully explain why.
if what is written in that post is correct, then you've got some responsibilities too.
that post was written for all of us - but i am sure that it is especially pertinent to you in particular.
E
We have already been through this,
first look at your version..
If we claim we have not sinned
Then look at Johns actual words.
If we claim we have no sin
You will already see a major issue, You have changed Johns words, You have made him speak in past tense. Where in reality he spoke of a present tense situation.
Yep. the one who continues to habitually sin (live like the world) is of the devil.
Yet Peter still sinned, We know this because paul had to confront him face to face for his sin against the gentile people..
All of these passages speak of habitual sinning.. ongoing sin, Living like the world.
They must agree with 1 John 1. And vs 9 would be meaningless if a child of God never sinned again..
first look at your version..
If we claim we have not sinned
Then look at Johns actual words.
If we claim we have no sin
You will already see a major issue, You have changed Johns words, You have made him speak in past tense. Where in reality he spoke of a present tense situation.
Yep. the one who continues to habitually sin (live like the world) is of the devil.
Yet Peter still sinned, We know this because paul had to confront him face to face for his sin against the gentile people..
All of these passages speak of habitual sinning.. ongoing sin, Living like the world.
They must agree with 1 John 1. And vs 9 would be meaningless if a child of God never sinned again..
I agree that these passages in I John 3 speak of habitual sinning - they are Greek present tense. That is - the one who has been born out of God does not keep on sinning.
I think the above is a clear meaning of the passage, but probably not all that John was trying to say:
I think he was also trying to say that sin and the Christian are incompatible: That is - on one hand look at a person who has been born again and is indwelt by the Spirit of the Living God and has the resurrection power of God available - then on the other hand look at an act of sin in all of its selfishness, greed, pride, etc. = those two ideas are just not congruent and compatible. And if we as Christians can see this incompatibility of sin with who we really are in Christ, it should and will lead us to victory over sin. That doesn't mean we may not commit an act of sin, but it does mean that keeping on sinning and being a Christian are incompatible.
I think the above is a clear meaning of the passage, but probably not all that John was trying to say:
I think he was also trying to say that sin and the Christian are incompatible: That is - on one hand look at a person who has been born again and is indwelt by the Spirit of the Living God and has the resurrection power of God available - then on the other hand look at an act of sin in all of its selfishness, greed, pride, etc. = those two ideas are just not congruent and compatible. And if we as Christians can see this incompatibility of sin with who we really are in Christ, it should and will lead us to victory over sin. That doesn't mean we may not commit an act of sin, but it does mean that keeping on sinning and being a Christian are incompatible.
amen, man -- amen!
the Greek is more than just present tense here, it indicates ongoing action. John is literally saying the believer cannot continue in sin -- and that anyone who continues sinning isn't born of God.
mr. love there is quite definitely wrong in his interpretation.
we are incompatible with sin because we have died to it -- we are immersed into Christ's death and resurrection, and sin is dead to us, and we dead to it.
Paul spends an inordinate amount of time driving home this fact in Romans chapter 6 -- he states at least ten times in no uncertain terms that we have died with Christ in just a couple paragraphs. the very first 'command' in that whole epistle, the first time he encourages the reader to actually "do" something, it is to consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus.
Paul spends so much time telling the believers in Rome this because it is not obvious merely from their experience. this is the first thing he finds it necessary to urge them to "do" because it is not something that we comprehend naturally, if no one has taught us -- these are saved people, bound for glory, not hell, redeemed by Christ's blood that he is writing to. like each of us who have believed. but just living our lives after having believed, even if the Spirit came over us in power at our baptism or conversion or whatever, so we were speaking in tongues and praising God -- we do not immediately find ourselves no longer tempted in the flesh and living a completely sinless life. true believers -- not 100% holy in our walk.
we are dead to sin -- sin has died to us and no longer has any power over us -- but until we realize that and act as though it is true, we don't begin to find the victory that is in Christ. Paul does not tell us "crucify yourselves" -- he says, "you have been crucified with Christ, realize this, remember this, keep this in mind, and walk like this"
so we are not any more compatible with sin than any sane person would be compatible with a rotting corpse as a roommate. it may seem OK when we first bring him in and drop him onto the carpet. the "thud" the body makes as it hits the floor should probably give it away, but maybe we think it's just tired. but if we spend any amount of time living with this dead thing, it begins to stink. we can't keep it in our lives, and we clean house.
this is something that happens naturally to us -- because we have new natures, a gift of God to us. before, we could continue in sin, no problem, but now, it is a dead thing, and we find no joy in it, only guilt, and shame, and to put it lightly, "discomfort"
Paul is telling us in Romans 6 to just wake up and realize that it's dead, before we ever invite it into our homes. John is telling us in his little epistle that we need to be honest: all of us have sin, and we need not to be worried - we should but confess it ((repentance of it is our new nature)) and God is faithful to forgive us, and Christ is our advocate before Him always. John is telling us that if anyone can go on sinning without confession - without admitting to themselves this is sin, and can continue sinning without repentance in their heart, then they do not belong to God.
the nature in ourselves to repent and to hate sin is the mark of God on us, reminding us that we are His -- and that should be an encouragement to us! this is not an epistle of condemnation, as "mr. love" keeps relating it to be. it is an epistle that reassures us that God is faithful to us to forgive our sins, and that the fact that we cannot abide in sin is evidence that we belong to God now -- and an epistle encouraging us to keep ourselves from sin -- "not to bother" since it is incompatible with us as being found in Christ
the Greek is more than just present tense here, it indicates ongoing action. John is literally saying the believer cannot continue in sin -- and that anyone who continues sinning isn't born of God.
mr. love there is quite definitely wrong in his interpretation.
we are incompatible with sin because we have died to it -- we are immersed into Christ's death and resurrection, and sin is dead to us, and we dead to it.
Paul spends an inordinate amount of time driving home this fact in Romans chapter 6 -- he states at least ten times in no uncertain terms that we have died with Christ in just a couple paragraphs. the very first 'command' in that whole epistle, the first time he encourages the reader to actually "do" something, it is to consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus.
Paul spends so much time telling the believers in Rome this because it is not obvious merely from their experience. this is the first thing he finds it necessary to urge them to "do" because it is not something that we comprehend naturally, if no one has taught us -- these are saved people, bound for glory, not hell, redeemed by Christ's blood that he is writing to. like each of us who have believed. but just living our lives after having believed, even if the Spirit came over us in power at our baptism or conversion or whatever, so we were speaking in tongues and praising God -- we do not immediately find ourselves no longer tempted in the flesh and living a completely sinless life. true believers -- not 100% holy in our walk.
we are dead to sin -- sin has died to us and no longer has any power over us -- but until we realize that and act as though it is true, we don't begin to find the victory that is in Christ. Paul does not tell us "crucify yourselves" -- he says, "you have been crucified with Christ, realize this, remember this, keep this in mind, and walk like this"
so we are not any more compatible with sin than any sane person would be compatible with a rotting corpse as a roommate. it may seem OK when we first bring him in and drop him onto the carpet. the "thud" the body makes as it hits the floor should probably give it away, but maybe we think it's just tired. but if we spend any amount of time living with this dead thing, it begins to stink. we can't keep it in our lives, and we clean house.
this is something that happens naturally to us -- because we have new natures, a gift of God to us. before, we could continue in sin, no problem, but now, it is a dead thing, and we find no joy in it, only guilt, and shame, and to put it lightly, "discomfort"
Paul is telling us in Romans 6 to just wake up and realize that it's dead, before we ever invite it into our homes. John is telling us in his little epistle that we need to be honest: all of us have sin, and we need not to be worried - we should but confess it ((repentance of it is our new nature)) and God is faithful to forgive us, and Christ is our advocate before Him always. John is telling us that if anyone can go on sinning without confession - without admitting to themselves this is sin, and can continue sinning without repentance in their heart, then they do not belong to God.
the nature in ourselves to repent and to hate sin is the mark of God on us, reminding us that we are His -- and that should be an encouragement to us! this is not an epistle of condemnation, as "mr. love" keeps relating it to be. it is an epistle that reassures us that God is faithful to us to forgive our sins, and that the fact that we cannot abide in sin is evidence that we belong to God now -- and an epistle encouraging us to keep ourselves from sin -- "not to bother" since it is incompatible with us as being found in Christ
"John" have you simply not read .. ?
The law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
(Galatians 3:25-27)
or do you simply lie?
what eg said is entirely correct.
how many times do we have to correct you before we all just stop listening to you altogether?
"John" how many times must God correct you?
On this one we agree, but not on a few other issues! In glory, we'll sit around a table and let Paul, Peter, and John straighten us all out! (but keep Calvin at another table!
In glory, we'll sit around a table and let Paul, Peter, and John straighten us all out! (but keep Calvin at another table!
Hmmmm! Thinking about that last post -- I think when I get to heaven I am going to call for a bigger table with a few more people around it - I am going to need more that Paul, Peter, and John to convince you that OSAS was not so! I think I will add Barnabas, Stephen, John the Baptist, Andrew, Philip, Silas, James, and maybe a few more yet.
On the other hand, if I am wrong . . . . You might need the Lord himself at the table to convince me!
Hmmmm! Thinking about that last post -- I think when I get to heaven I am going to call for a bigger table with a few more people around it - I am going to need more that Paul, Peter, and John to convince you that OSAS was not so! I think I will add Barnabas, Stephen, John the Baptist, Andrew, Philip, Silas, James, and maybe a few more yet.
On the other hand, if I am wrong . . . . You might need the Lord himself at the table to convince me!
On the other hand, if I am wrong . . . . You might need the Lord himself at the table to convince me!
Have you asked the Lord if you could lose your salvation?
E
Hmmmm! Thinking about that last post -- I think when I get to heaven I am going to call for a bigger table with a few more people around it - I am going to need more that Paul, Peter, and John to convince you that OSAS was not so! I think I will add Barnabas, Stephen, John the Baptist, Andrew, Philip, Silas, James, and maybe a few more yet.
On the other hand, if I am wrong . . . . You might need the Lord himself at the table to convince me!
On the other hand, if I am wrong . . . . You might need the Lord himself at the table to convince me!
Sadly I fear if we are wrong we will not be at the table.. there is only one gospel. Not two.. So I fear one of us is in trouble
(1 John 1: 8-10)[SUP] “[/SUP]If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”
If one reads the above scripture as you want to read it, then all it says is, if one says he or she has no sin, then they are liars. Your understanding of the above scripture does not say one no longer sins.
Also rewriting scripture and adding habitually does not make any sense, because John said in the same letter the following scripture.
(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”
Jesus did not just keep from habitually sinning. We can’t be in Jesus if we sin at all.
(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”
(John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”
(John 14:21) “Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me; and anybody who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him.”
(John 14:21) “Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me; and anybody who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him.”
Notice John said anyone who lives in God does not sin. No way can one put habitually sinning in that scripture.
Also Jesus said that he would show himself to those who proved they love him by keeping his Commandments. Just how many of the people that just don’t habitually sin do you think have seen Jesus?
If one reads the above scripture as you want to read it, then all it says is, if one says he or she has no sin, then they are liars. Your understanding of the above scripture does not say one no longer sins.
Also rewriting scripture and adding habitually does not make any sense, because John said in the same letter the following scripture.
(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”
Jesus did not just keep from habitually sinning. We can’t be in Jesus if we sin at all.
(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”
(John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”
(John 14:21) “Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me; and anybody who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him.”
(John 14:21) “Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me; and anybody who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him.”
Notice John said anyone who lives in God does not sin. No way can one put habitually sinning in that scripture.
Also Jesus said that he would show himself to those who proved they love him by keeping his Commandments. Just how many of the people that just don’t habitually sin do you think have seen Jesus?
E
first look at your version..
If we claim we have not sinned
Then look at Johns actual words.
If we claim we have no sin
You will already see a major issue, You have changed Johns words, You have made him speak in past tense. Where in reality he spoke of a present tense situation.
It still stands.
People claim to be sinless all the time, The pharisee did, The gnostic did (any sin they commited was not their sin, their spirit was perfect) And of course, you do. so John had to adress this issue of sinless perfection.
If we claim we have not sinned
Then look at Johns actual words.
If we claim we have no sin
You will already see a major issue, You have changed Johns words, You have made him speak in past tense. Where in reality he spoke of a present tense situation.
It still stands.
People claim to be sinless all the time, The pharisee did, The gnostic did (any sin they commited was not their sin, their spirit was perfect) And of course, you do. so John had to adress this issue of sinless perfection.
You do have a problem don’t you? How can you ignore the following scripture? Did the bible that was rewritten to accommodate sinners change this scripture also?
(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”
Also have you seen Jesus Christ our Lord and God?
(John 14:21) “Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me; and anybody who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him.”
May be your rewritten bible deleted the above scripture.
(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”
Also have you seen Jesus Christ our Lord and God?
(John 14:21) “Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me; and anybody who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him.”
May be your rewritten bible deleted the above scripture.
E
It is obvious we can not communicate, I have shown you twice now (actually more) the problem with what your saying.
You keep taking me back to other verses and just say I am wrong.. It don't work that way. you have to prove in the passage I am using, using language tools. I am wrong, You can;t do that.
Go ahead, Live thinking your sinless. it will not hurt me one bit
You keep taking me back to other verses and just say I am wrong.. It don't work that way. you have to prove in the passage I am using, using language tools. I am wrong, You can;t do that.
Go ahead, Live thinking your sinless. it will not hurt me one bit
I show you scripture that tells you that you are wrong, and shows you that the scripture you quoted does not say what you claim. Yet you can keep on denying the truth.
A Christian does not sin. Also Jesus said he would show himself to those who love him, and you also ignore my question about that.
A sinner is of the devil, which is what scripture says. I believe scripture. I believe everyone who sins is of the devil, and the devil keeps a sinner from being able to see the truth.
(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who is a child of God sins because God's seed remains in him. Nor can he sin, because he is a child of God. This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: whoever does not live uprightly and does not love his brother is not from God” New Jerusalem bible
Apostle John wrote the above scripture. How did your rewritten bible put in the word habitually into that scripture? Notice John explained how one can tell the difference between a Child of God and a child of the devil.
A Christian does not sin. Also Jesus said he would show himself to those who love him, and you also ignore my question about that.
A sinner is of the devil, which is what scripture says. I believe scripture. I believe everyone who sins is of the devil, and the devil keeps a sinner from being able to see the truth.
(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who is a child of God sins because God's seed remains in him. Nor can he sin, because he is a child of God. This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: whoever does not live uprightly and does not love his brother is not from God” New Jerusalem bible
Apostle John wrote the above scripture. How did your rewritten bible put in the word habitually into that scripture? Notice John explained how one can tell the difference between a Child of God and a child of the devil.