Word of Faith - a Look at what the Bible says!

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Oncefallen

Idiot in Chief
Staff member
Jan 15, 2011
6,038
3,304
113
right there is a fault in your belief.

you BELIEVE it is a thorn to you, you give it place, you give it life with that belief. and for some reason people love assuming Pauls thorn was sickness you can't though. and pas that people love quoting this verse in there sickness but i have one question. What is the devil holding you back from! what mass conversion were you facilitating that the devil had to attack you with a thorn! the devil came against Paul for the reason that the moment he got his revelation his calling in God was that much stronger! that is a LIE of the devil, god loves you brother and He only wants to give you bread not a stone. modern medication is Gods healing, every time a new med is developed that is a victories step to the cure brother! rejoice! and know you will be healed COMPLETELY one day!
You see, it exactly this sort of thing that causes people to gag on WoF.

Back in the early 80's when WoF was really beginning to gain traction via TBN I was diagnosed with cancer (I was 13). We had a handful of persons in our church that bought the Hagin/Copeland WoF, blab it and grab it gospel hook line and sinker. I remember sitting in choir practice at church with my mother as my mother requested prayer for my healing with the clarification that above all God's will be done (I seem to remember our Lord teaching us to pray that way) and watched as the WoF'ers one by one jumped down her neck implying that if I wasn't healed it would be her fault due to her lack of faith.

In the three and a half decades since time and again I have seen the WoF followers that I have known do the same thing. Without compassion or concern they blast those who choose to live in reality (as opposed to lying to themselves and those around them about what ails them) as being the cause of their own disease because of their "negative confession".
 
L

LanceA

Guest
I appreciate your gentle reply. You must not have written what I have written about my friend, Nydia. She was very involved in the Word Faith about the time I was totally disabled with Rheumatoid Arthritis. She and her band of merry WoF people spent a lot of time laying hands on me, praying for my healing.

When I was not healed, they blamed me for having a lack of faith. Despite the fact that the way the Greek is worded in James 5:13-16 places the fault of not being healed on the elders who prayed, not the person who was sick. So I got blamed, and I went into deep depression, that my walk was God was bad. And because of that, it became not just bad, but non-existent.

I stopped going to church, and for the first time in 20 years, I stopped reading the Bible through. I stopped praying. That is a pretty harmful doctrine. They damaged me in my spirit, you have that right!

But fortunately, God used it for good. First, he had me just read the Psalms. I read 5 chapters a day, for 2 years. That is a read through every month. I heard a completely different story that the Word of Faith lies. I heard people crying out to God because they were hurting -physically, emotionally and in every way. I learned that people even got depressed in the Psalms, which made me realize I was not such a failure.

"Why am I so depressed?
Why this turmoil within me?
Put your hope in God, for I will still praise Him,
my Savior and my God." Psalm 42:5 HCSB


(I preached a sermon on Psalms 42 & 43 last year, if you want to know why this version is a bit different than the normal versions, and what God's word says about mental health problems. I can email it to anyone wanting to read it. Several people here really enjoyed it!)

Then, God began to use doctors to get me back to almost 100% normal, although I still had deformities. I really reclaimed so much more than the life I had been living. I became a road biker - I rode daily, and one summer, put 2000 km on my bicycle. God called me to seminary. I had not heeded his call the first time, but what an incredible experience of learning the Word of God, and growing closer to him, and learning how to minister to God's people, as a chaplain and pastor.

But in the midst of that long process of recovery, that Kenneth Copeland ordained pastor, friend of mine, who told me I didn't have enough faith to be healed, got breast cancer. She would not accept medical treatment. Was it the false doctrine of "pharmakea"being sorcery that scared her off? Or just her being so entrenched in her investment in Copeland's false doctrine, she could not swallow her pride and arrogance and get the chemo and radiation"

She died very quickly. Sadly, the cancer went into her brain, and she ended up insane before she died!

And you think my friend wasn't saved? She had been my mentor for the first 10 years I was saved. She was an evangelist and lead thousands to the Lord, in BC, California and many foreign countries, where she ministered with her husband. The man of God, who ended up committing adultery on my friend and walking out on her, and spending his evenings in the casinos and bars, before coming home at 4 am. Oh yes, and he preached on Sunday. So, yes, sometimes they are not right with God. The catch is - he didn't get sick, my friend who loved God with all her heart. I know there was no sin in her life. She was a great believer in confessing sin and repenting. But this WoF lie about claiming healing, she just couldn't repent and let it go. So sad.

I think you have fingered a couple of issues. But this condemnation by Wassup of people who are sick, is judgmental and evil. And Wanderer also saying people are following the devil, men of God who love Christ more than life itself.

That is beyond irksome, and just acts of horror. Those are the words from the devil. And yes, the "twisted" Scriptures that people use to say that healing is in the atonement. I wish that was the title of this, so maybe we could day on track. Because, the fact is this WOF heresy goes far beyond healing - to wealth, and false prophecy, false doctrine etc. Stephen63 had a good bunch of posts on page 17, I believe.

As for you and being cancer free - praise the Lord for this testimony. I hope and pray it does not return. It was obviously God's will that you be healed.


Hi Angela,

I hope you didn't think I said your friend wasn't saved. I would never claim to know anything about anyone. What I was saying is we don't know what goes on in people's lives that are Christian and none Christian.

I am thankful that the experience you went through didn't fully keep you from God. I believe you are a blessing to many and if I ever were to have a question about the Greek or Hebrew I would come to you. I believe when I was on here before I left I came to you concerning Hebrew and Greek.

We are all human and we are all flawed. As I am typing this a thought came to me. Maybe it is discernment that some Christians are missing. I mean, if we all had discernment or knowledge about someone then wouldn't we know for sure if God is saying "heal that person"? Could this be the missing link that many of us have? I'm just trying to throw things out there to see what is missing?

Like I said I believe God's will is to take care of His children and healing is apart of that. I just don't have it all figured out and probably won't until I meet up with the Lord :)
 
Oct 31, 2016
286
2
0
Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners
Yeah, and I'll take Doctor Jesus over Marcus Welby anyday!

God is the physician and His Word is the medicine.

Those that trust in man's ability be asking for trouble... cause by the time they find out man can't do anything, they are so far in unbelief they just die.

So, think of your family and at least get a big fat life insurance policy so when you croak they'll quickly forget you while spending the cash and they can get on with their lives.
 
C

CharlieGrown

Guest
You see, it exactly this sort of thing that causes people to gag on WoF.

Back in the early 80's when WoF was really beginning to gain traction via TBN I was diagnosed with cancer (I was 13). We had a handful of persons in our church that bought the Hagin/Copeland WoF, blab it and grab it gospel hook line and sinker. I remember sitting in choir practice at church with my mother as my mother requested prayer for my healing with the clarification that above all God's will be done (I seem to remember our Lord teaching us to pray that way) and watched as the WoF'ers one by one jumped down her neck implying that if I wasn't healed it would be her fault due to her lack of faith.

In the three and a half decades since time and again I have seen the WoF followers that I have known do the same thing. Without compassion or concern they blast those who choose to live in reality (as opposed to lying to themselves and those around them about what ails them) as being the cause of their own disease because of their "negative confession".
I remember those "pioneers" that had discovered their "hidden knowledge" of the word as they took everything out of context, would say "don't you dare put God in a box". Ironically, that's exactly what they were attempting to do. Trying to confine Him in an equation that would unlock all you desire...well it worked for them didn't it? Now Copeland is throwing in with the RCC...
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
God heals. We don't.

Sometimes God has us pray to build that person and others faith and so they can give glory to God for their healing.

To pray that above all God's will be done is not a lack in faith.

Jesus prayed it before being crucified. Many people want to deny that God sometimes calls us to suffer, even unto death in order to lead people back to Him. God has a purpose for ever tear we cry if we seek to live in His will.

This world is filled with suffering. Birth pains of creation of the New Earth and New Heaven promised.

This is not our home. These bodies are not permanent. We need to look to the future promises of our home and resurrected bodies.
 
L

LanceA

Guest
God heals. We don't.

Sometimes God has us pray to build that person and others faith and so they can give glory to God for their healing.

To pray that above all God's will be done is not a lack in faith.

Jesus prayed it before being crucified. Many people want to deny that God sometimes calls us to suffer, even unto death in order to lead people back to Him. God has a purpose for ever tear we cry if we seek to live in His will.

This world is filled with suffering. Birth pains of creation of the New Earth and New Heaven promised.

This is not our home. These bodies are not permanent. We need to look to the future promises of our home and resurrected bodies.
I will disagree with this. I've seen so many people say "I just want to go home and be with my father" and they basically give up on humanity. God calls us to go unto the world and make disciples, to heal, to basically take care of those in need.

And I don't think anyone is saying WE heal, it all comes from God.
 
Jun 1, 2016
5,032
121
0
Sounds as if you are implying that the Word of God is temperal? Lies are fleeting, truths are enduring but principles are from everlasting to everlasting; they don't twist and turn to appease the desires of the spirit but are the light which guide the souls of those walk while other sit in darkness.

Profound......
 
Mar 11, 2016
3,055
242
63
Singapore
abigail.pro
see this is one thing in WoF that gets me a little heated is the complete disregard of the natural. its not using "faith" to clam protection then walk in traffic, its not using "faith" to clam health then eat like crap and never work out, its not using "faith" to clam needs met while maxing out CC's on material things. i swear i am glad i wasn't there but at a meeting a speaker had a heart attack and instead of PREFORMING CPR AND BASIC LIFE SAVING SKILLS people watched and tried laying hands on the person while they died... iv i was there i would have thrown some chairs, and probably slapped someone if they tried to do that to a patient. that right there is what is wrong with WoF and its not from false doctrine but stupid people...
Exactly! And I'm convinced they all here actually see this, yet it contradicts the kind of WoF they have believed for so long and so will either ignore this truth or reject it.
 

Tinkerbell725

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2014
4,216
1,179
113
Philippines Age 40
If God heals everyone who prays out of faith for healing then nobody would die because of sickness. All believers will be immortal except those who die from accidents or calamities. Those WoF believers will know first hand that what they believe is questionable if they become sick of cancer or any incurable disease themselves. God does not heal people sometimes so we can become wounded healers.
 

nowyouseem033

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2014
535
30
28
I will disagree with this. I've seen so many people say "I just want to go home and be with my father" and they basically give up on humanity. God calls us to go unto the world and make disciples, to heal, to basically take care of those in need.

And I don't think anyone is saying WE heal, it all comes from God.
Lol and whats wrong with the prayer that says Lord come quickly? I think thats a legitimate prayer to ask the Lord. I have asked the Lord to come and boi cant i wait until he does.:)
 
Mar 11, 2016
3,055
242
63
Singapore
abigail.pro
Lol and whats wrong with the prayer that says Lord come quickly? I think thats a legitimate prayer to ask the Lord. I have asked the Lord to come and boi cant i wait until he does.:)
Nothing. Jesus' coming is different from us wanting to leave earth early (that is wanting to die).
 

nowyouseem033

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2014
535
30
28
Nothing. Jesus' coming is different from us wanting to leave earth early (that is wanting to die).
I dont have a problem with a person whom is suffering to pray for God to deliver them from it. In fact most of the prophets prayed to God to kill them as they were suffering tremendously at the hands of persecution. God didnt reply "well, thats a stupid thing to ask for" but rather graciously reassured them of his strength and might to carry them on.
 
Mar 11, 2016
3,055
242
63
Singapore
abigail.pro
I dont have a problem with a person whom is suffering to pray for God to deliver them from it. In fact most of the prophets prayed to God to kill them as they were suffering tremendously at the hands of persecution. God didnt reply "well, thats a stupid thing to ask for" but rather graciously reassured them of his strength and might to carry them on.
The prophets yes. Before Jesus came, they lived in a terrible time and always ran for their lives.

Did Peter or paul or anyone who received the Holy Spirit actually ask to die?

Judas Iscariot is an exception. He did not receive the Holy Spirit and arguably wasnt saved at all.
 

nowyouseem033

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2014
535
30
28
The prophets yes. Before Jesus came, they lived in a terrible time and always ran for their lives.

Did Peter or paul or anyone who received the Holy Spirit actually ask to die?

Judas Iscariot is an exception.
The question is it is a problem to pray that prayer and my answer is no? Phillipians 1:23 Paul certainly desires to be with Christ moreover being here on earth.
Again I do not have a problem with someone desiring to leave this world and be with Christ. Its not bad if someone desires that or they are wrong in praying that. Geeezzz lets not get legalistic and start saying to people you cant pray that prayer, okay
 
Mar 11, 2016
3,055
242
63
Singapore
abigail.pro
The question is it is a problem to pray that prayer and my answer is no? Phillipians 1:23 Paul certainly desires to be with Christ moreover being here on earth.
Again I do not have a problem with someone desiring to leave this world and be with Christ. Its not bad if someone desires that or they are wrong in praying that. Geeezzz lets not get legalistic and start saying to people you cant pray that prayer, okay
Let's not. I was pointing out how out of topic your response to LancaA was. Anyway. Yes, I'm done.
 
Oct 31, 2016
286
2
0
To pray that above all God's will be done is not a lack in faith.
When it comes to healing, we never, ever, never never have to pray "if it be thy will" cause God's Word is very quite crystal clear... He has already paid for us to be healed thru Jesus' work at the Cross.

Those that are not aware of what God says in His Word concerning this pray "if it be thy will" for healing which is leaving the door cracked for the devil to convince you that you ain't gonna receive no healin.

Ya gotta take it by force... lay hold of God's promises and make a stand, and REFUSE to back down forever!

Or, get'cha oMommaCare and call the doctor... get on board the Nanny State Train with Baby Huey!
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
I will disagree with this. I've seen so many people say "I just want to go home and be with my father" and they basically give up on humanity. God calls us to go unto the world and make disciples, to heal, to basically take care of those in need.

And I don't think anyone is saying WE heal, it all comes from God.
The desire to be home with God does not mean you stop doing the work God made you to here in this world.

Nothing is wrong with the statement unless you don't understand the important mission God has for each and every one of His children...leading people back to Him.

Giving up in humanity isn't what God calls us to do, but sometimes people need to be encouraged to remain here in God's will...need to be reminded of His power, glory and grace.

God does that, he makes life worth living.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
The prophets yes. Before Jesus came, they lived in a terrible time and always ran for their lives.

Did Peter or paul or anyone who received the Holy Spirit actually ask to die?

Judas Iscariot is an exception. He did not receive the Holy Spirit and arguably wasnt saved at all.
They did ask that they would be delivered from the body of death.

If Christ does heal us it is never in respect to outward men, that would be to blaspheme the Holy name by which we are called. God does not heal by human hands or another way to say that is he is not worshiped by human hands.

The word worship as used only once in Acts. It comes from the Greek word Acts 17 (Therapeuo.... to heal, cure, restore to health) , from where we get the word therapeutic .

Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

We would never accredited the healing of God in respect to the flesh of men, like Oral Roberts or the Pope.

The Son of man resisted all attempts to credit his flesh as a source of healing the nations.

When men accredit the work of Christ’s faith in respect to the flesh they make the faith of God without effect. While some sell it literally for a profit ($$$$) or a spiritual advantage.

Natural man will simply make those men moved by God into gods in the likeness of men , that they then can before our living God ,therefore violating the first commandment.

We can see that in an example found in Acts 14 where men measured their faith according to that which was seen.

Paul as the Spirit of Christ worked in him was given the faith to speak the word of God and another was
healed as the Spirit of Christ moved him with a loud voice; “ Stand upright on thy feet” .Having heard the word of God that he put on Paul’s lips, he leaped and walked showing the effects of the gospel ,as it is written that did work in that lame person to both will and do Christ's good pleasure as an imputed righteousness (not of Paul or the lame man) . .


And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and "perceiving" that he had faith to be healed,Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. Act 14:8


The phrase The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed.

Paul was given an understanding that the person already had the faith of Christ needed to understand God. God moved Paul by working in him to both will and do his good pleasure the same who worked in the person who received it the mutual faith of Christ not of men.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,766
850
113
44
When it comes to healing, we never, ever, never never have to pray "if it be thy will" cause God's Word is very quite crystal clear... He has already paid for us to be healed thru Jesus' work at the Cross.

Those that are not aware of what God says in His Word concerning this pray "if it be thy will" for healing which is leaving the door cracked for the devil to convince you that you ain't gonna receive no healin.

Ya gotta take it by force... lay hold of God's promises and make a stand, and REFUSE to back down forever!

Or, get'cha oMommaCare and call the doctor... get on board the Nanny State Train with Baby Huey!
"When it comes to healing, we never, ever, never never have to pray "if it be thy will" cause God's Word is very quite crystal clear... He has already paid for us to be healed thru Jesus' work at the Cross.", and "Those that are not aware of what God says in His Word concerning this pray "if it be thy will" for healing which is leaving the door cracked for the devil to convince you that you ain't gonna receive no healin"

This is wrong, are you rebuking Jesus with these teachings? Because in Mat. 26:39 it says, "
39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
This is what Jesus Himself does, and just in case that isn't clear Luke 22:42 42 “Father, if You are willing, take this cup from Me. Yet not My will, but Yours be done.”

Just in case that isn't enough, when the disciples ask Jesus "how should we pray", in Matthew 6:9–13 He says "Pray then like this: 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

Are you sure we should " never, ever, never never have to pray "if it be thy will""??? I strongly disagree.