BEWARE the Lawkeepers

[john832]

gotime...

Not interested in the "rules" and "legalism" of the Seventh Day Adventism cult.

You interested in the "NO RULES" and "ILLEGALISM" of anarchy? Do whatever feels good? There once was a time this occurred, and it is preserved for us in one of the bloodiest books of the Bible...

Jdg 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

 

[john832]

so is the 4th commandment a prophecy,that is repeated by Moses?,,,,

Absolutely...

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

 

[BradC]

You are looping. All of your questions have been answered by me or other of the brethren...... This reminds me of the Pharisees questioning the blind man......

You have not explained that passage for it contradicts your understanding of the law and the application it has for believers. It is no wonder you do not want to deal with the knowledge and understanding it gives especially coming from the apostle Paul. The purpose of the law has been discharged through the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Christ. Christ fulfilled the law to discharge it from it duty and has given us the Spirit to convict us, reveal the grace of God and guide us in the truth. The law was given that every man would shut his mouth and become guilty of coming short of the glory of God. We do not preach the law to bring salvation to man, we preach Christ and Him crucified for only through His resurrection is man justified from sin and only through Him can we be made righteous. To keep the law does nothing for any man except bring condemnation and guilt to the Jew and the Gentile. If you want to call that good then so be it. That was the purpose of the law and when Christ came all the handwriting of ordinances (bond and bill of debt) that was against and contrary to us was taken out of the way and blotted out being nailed (fastened) to the cross.

The law is against us and not for us, can you understand that. We are debtor's to the law and the law can not be mellowed or tempered with mercy and grace. The law must be fulfilled or it will be transgressed. This is why Christ died that we might be justified, not by the law but from the law that was against us.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
amplified - For if I [or any others who have taught that the observance of the Law of Moses is not essential to being justified by God should now by word or practice teach or intimate that it is essential to] build up again what I tore down, I prove myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
amplified - For I through the Law [under the operation of the curse of the Law] have [in Christ’s death for me] myself died to the Law and all the law's demands upon me, so that I may live to and for God.

It is not just the curse of the law that Paul was dead to but also the demands of the law. Paul was not saying he was lawless but that he was dead to the law for righteousness and for justification that he might live unto God by faith through the work of the cross. That is difficult for some who refuse to adjust from the law unto faith in the work of the cross. You can't have both, either you will come under the whole law by works or you will come under the grace of God by the work of faith.

Being pleasing to God is to be acceptable to God and being justified in His sight is to be declared righteous, and both of these are by faith and through the work of His Son on the cross for the NT believer.

 

[john832]

You can't just willy nilly pick and choose on what parts of the law you will keep...it is an integrated whole in that if you break just one dot or tittle, you have broken the whole law.
Is that the course you really want to take?

OK, how about showing us where we are given that choice. Where does it say I can choose whether to keep the Law or not?

 

[john832]

Yes, I just wonder who is living up to this standard.

Jesus said to him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell what thou hast and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.
(Mat 19:21)

You see that laptop or tablet/phone you guys are typing on? Let's start with that...

You have a problem with what Christ says to do?

 

[BradC]

Kenneth Wuest on Gal 2:18...For if I [or any others who have taught that the observance of the Law of Moses is not essential to being justified by God should now by word or practice teach or intimate that it is essential to] build up again what I tore down, I prove myself a transgressor.

 

[JaumeJ]

Thank you for replying. My great horror is how many change the Seventh Day to the first day. Now this is looping man's time in this age, and this is not my belief nor desire. Jesus, Yeshua, is returning soon, amen.

I notice both the sides (far left and far right) of the issue saw the people before them all

debating this and they decided what they believed and then joined one side or the other. Iraniaus said "it is a prophecy" that is he was speaking of the six days of creation and the rest in Genesis. His explanation was about the mark of the beast(or the number),he said "six hundred because Noah was six hundred when he entered the ark and sixty and six because the Image Nebuchadnezzar required them to bow down to was sixty cubits tall and six cubits wide",,a while later he made the comment that this surmised all the worlds apostasy from the deluge throughout all mankind's history and that in "six thousand years it would be concluded".,,,

I wondered,,"why on earth did Iranieus tie the seven days in genesis,the destruction(deluge) the ark Noah,the image in Danial the forth commandment all together with the end and the mark of the beast",(other things also as you say it is repeated throughout the bible). In (Issiah 46;10) it says that in the beginning he told us the end thereof,so "beginning/days of creation and the rest/sabbath" is also telling us the (end) thereof,so as well as the story of creation is telling us the creation(genesis) it also is telling us the end(judgement day) and the day of rest(millennial kingdom).

I am glad to see that you also notice the prophecy found in the same(maybe different details). I think that to most I must seem like a slippery fish when we all discuss the sabbath (Saturday verses Sunday) because it seems I support both,that is Saturday I think cannot be removed because it is a message with a meaning God is trying to convey to us,but the same the first day(the Lords day) is also a message with a meaning,they both go together to form a complete sentence being conveyed by God. That is as well as the six days are conveying the length of time mankind will labor,and the seventh the rest, the day of the Lord is conveying the day after these sets of prophecy.

 

[john832]

Thanks brother for your reply. Then, would you say that since we are to be followers of Messiah, ...well, you know.

I guess before He returns those who sincerely seek to follow His example will be called a lot worse than "legalist" or "Judaizers", beware of us oooohhhh..

frankly I don't care, it's yoke not doctrine I seek.

I have read a few negative comments here about myself, my thoughts on that are...

"Is that all you got? I've been worked over by professionals."

 

[john832]

What I realize is that Yahweh does what He will do, and what He will do is what I pray for.

The Hebrew calendar is based on the genealogies provided in the Word.

The genalogies leave out the ages of more than one person in Genesis.

Because of this, those religious men who calculated the time from creation would not include them not having the exact figures of the lifetimes. They would not guess at them either in order not to add or take away from the Word of God.

So now the time since the creation has the world at the year 5774 by the Hebrew calendar with any number of years omitted due to the law. Since the age of man has diminished since the time of Methuselah, those missing years could be any number of years that do not add to 5774 making it more than 6000. I find this exciting, and no, mankind cannot limit Yahweh to time since time only exists in this age with what we call time.

Keep in mind, Yahwhe knows the day and the time of Yeshua' return, so I would say He does use what we call time.

Actually, there is some conjecture about this. There possibly have been years not accounted for and some say it could actually be as late as 5994. There is no absolute verification.

 

[john832]

You have not explained that passage for it contradicts your understanding of the law and the application it has for believers. It is no wonder you do not want to deal with the knowledge and understanding it gives especially coming from the apostle Paul. The purpose of the law has been discharged through the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Christ. Christ fulfilled the law to discharge it from it duty and has given us the Spirit to convict us, reveal the grace of God and guide us in the truth. The law was given that every man would shut his mouth and become guilty of coming short of the glory of God. We do not preach the law to bring salvation to man, we preach Christ and Him crucified for only through His resurrection is man justified from sin and only through Him can we be made righteous. To keep the law does nothing for any man except bring condemnation and guilt to the Jew and the Gentile. If you want to call that good then so be it. That was the purpose of the law and when Christ came all the handwriting of ordinances (bond and bill of debt) that was against and contrary to us was taken out of the way and blotted out being nailed (fastened) to the cross.

The law is against us and not for us, can you understand that. We are debtor's to the law and the law can not be mellowed or tempered with mercy and grace. The law must be fulfilled or it will be transgressed. This is why Christ died that we might be justified, not by the law but from the law that was against us.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
amplified - For if I [or any others who have taught that the observance of the Law of Moses is not essential to being justified by God should now by word or practice teach or intimate that it is essential to] build up again what I tore down, I prove myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
amplified - For I through the Law [under the operation of the curse of the Law] have [in Christ’s death for me] myself died to the Law and all the law's demands upon me, so that I may live to and for God.

It is not just the curse of the law that Paul was dead to but also the demands of the law. Paul was not saying he was lawless but that he was dead to the law for righteousness and for justification that he might live unto God by faith through the work of the cross. That is difficult for some who refuse to adjust from the law unto faith in the work of the cross. You can't have both, either you will come under the whole law by works or you will come under the grace of God by the work of faith.

Being pleasing to God is to be acceptable to God and being justified in His sight is to be declared righteous, and both of these are by faith and through the work of His Son on the cross for the NT believer.

Dead to the Law and the Law is dead are two completely different concepts.

 

[haz]

So, no rules, no Laws, no standards of behavior for man? A serial child molester that says the magic words is in the same category as someone like, say, Elijah? Or perhaps, John the Baptist? Or the Apostle Paul?

Why would you make such a false claim when I've already quoted Christ's commandment that we love one another.

but I have heard such arguments before from legalists in their attempt to try to justify works of the law to determine righteousness.

Legalists only succeed in making themselves a transgressor/sinner (Gal 2:18) by being under the law. You are only opposing yourself by following legalist doctrine.

repent of your dead works and believe on Jesus.

 

[john832]

Why would you make such a false claim when I've already quoted Christ's commandment that we love one another.

but I have heard such arguments before from legalists in their attempt to try to justify works of the law to determine righteousness.

Legalists only succeed in making themselves a transgressor/sinner (Gal 2:18) by being under the law. You are only opposing yourself by following legalist doctrine.

repent of your dead works and believe on Jesus.

So a legalist should come out from under the Law? What do you mean by that? No longer required to obey?

 

[BradC]

Dead to the Law and the Law is dead are two completely different concepts.

Either you or JaumeJ can explain what it means 'to be dead to the law'. Don't say there are different without explaining what that difference is.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sure I do, but having raised three children successfully, I do understand that they need rules and guidelines.

Ah, here we go.

Guildines is one thing.

Rules, which if you break them I will not be your father anymore is quite another thing.

Of ourse we have guildines, most of the NT are guidelines of how we as the church, and people in the church should at. and examples of failures, and warnings about false teachers. All parents should give their kids this.

But rules. That would make us slavemasters, and not parents.

 

[Dan_473]

I'm curious..can anyone point out one place where Jesus broke God's law? Not talking about added rabbinic law, please.

anyone?

Was Jesus a law keeper?

I think Jesus had the power to interpret the law... Do you think that too? Jesus never broke the law according to his interpretation of it, which of course is what God wants... So, a question... Does the body of Christ have the power to interpret the law today? Grace and peace to you!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OK, how about showing us where we are given that choice. Where does it say I can choose whether to keep the Law or not?

You an follow the law all you want.

It is just paul makes it clear. if your going to try. your indebted to keep it ALL. (including sacrifice and burnt offering) and fulfilling the just requirement of the law. which is perfection.

can you do this? if you can feel free..

 

[JaumeJ]

Why do those who quote the new commandment of Yeshua to his followers, that is to love one another, seem to think that it terminated the commandments? Nowhere does our Savior say they are terminated. He actually just says, I give you a new commandment, not The New Commandment. Wake up folks, do as He did and teaches.

Amo 5:18
Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

 

[john832]

You an follow the law all you want.

It is just paul makes it clear. if your going to try. your indebted to keep it ALL. (including sacrifice and burnt offering) and fulfilling the just requirement of the law. which is perfection.

can you do this? if you can feel free..

No, that is not what it says. It says NOTHING about IF. Show me where that is an IF/THEN statement.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, that is not what it says. It says NOTHING about IF. Show me where that is an IF/THEN statement.

circumision was part of the law. Jews were saying we must follow the law (inluding this) paul said, if you do this, you will be indebted to keep it all..

The law is not in peaces we can split and get rid of whatever we desire, it is a unit. and it omes as a unit. so if your going to preach we must follow some. You better follow it all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

who said anything about terminate.

The one Jesus gave tells us how to obey, how to do the rest. It does not terminate them.