Why I don't believe in OSAS

[JaumeJ]

Rev 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, (1)which keep the commandments of God, and (2) have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1. God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. His commandments span the Word, in the Old and the New Testaments.

The remnant of the seed of the Body of Christ,.. the Bride, will endure the war waged by the dragon, has endured it since Christ was here.

2. Those who are enduring the war being waged are those who keep faithful to the witness, the testimony, of Jesus Christ.

This part of the writing is in plain language for all to read and understand.

To say these two enlightenments are not to be understood is stretching plain words to be some kind of interpretation. It is not. It is saying to keep the commandments of God, and also keep the witness of Jesus Christ. It is difficult now, and soon it will become a superhuman feat to practice, but all who cleave to Jesus Christ will, but I am afraid the majority will fall away.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You're quoting from an antichrist bible, antichrist bibles will always make it seem as though man has to work for God's blessings.

Your antichrist bible says: "when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life.
The KJV says: when a man is tried (whether or not he is steadfast in the trial) he will receive the crown of life.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

In the KJV the crown of life is promised to everyone that loves Him.
In the antichrist translations the crown of life is given to those who "work" for it.

Different wording, same meaning;

Endures temptation ( remains steadfast under trial ), and stood the test ( when he is tried )

They both mean they can not give into sin, and by doing so he will be found faultless and receive the crown of life.

You are the one who wants it to try and mean something different.

 

[KJV1611]

Rev 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, (1)which keep the commandments of God, and (2) have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1. God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. His commandments span the Word, in the Old and the New Testaments.

The remnant of the seed of the Body of Christ,.. the Bride, will endure the war waged by the dragon, has endured it since Christ was here.

2. Those who are enduring the war being waged are those who keep faithful to the witness, the testimony, of Jesus Christ.

This part of the writing is in plain language for all to read and understand.

To say these two enlightenments are not to be understood is stretching plain words to be some kind of interpretation. It is not. It is saying to keep the commandments of God, and also keep the witness of Jesus Christ. It is difficult now, and soon it will become a superhuman feat to practice, but all who cleave to Jesus Christ will, but I am afraid the majority will fall away.

Do you keep the speed limit or do you obey the speed limit?
Please look up the word keep, it does not mean obey.

 

[KJV1611]

Different wording, same meaning;

Endures temptation ( remains steadfast under trial ), and stood the test ( when he is tried )

They both mean they can not give into sin, and by doing so he will be found faultless and receive the crown of life.

You are the one who wants it to try and mean something different.

Simple question, in the verse below who gets the crown of life?

Jas_1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

 

[JaumeJ]

I hear and see a hair being split here.

Keep also has the definition of maintaining, observing and much more. In language there are indeed primary definitions of words, but so too there are secondary, terciary, quaternary, even more definitions which are juist as valid as the primary, only the primary is the first usage in a given time of the language.

This does not add to nor diminish the meaning of the word. Actually the older meaning of to keep is in line with the time of the translation of the Word.

You may correct me if you like, I do not mind, but keep in mind, I do know grammer fairly well.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Simple question, in the verse below who gets the crown of life?

Jas_1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Simple: A true believing follower of Jesus Christ who does not fall back into the temptations of the world.

If they do fall back into the temptations of the world, and don't repent and come back to the Lord then they don't get the crown of life.

 

[Stephen63]

Hebrews 11:6 (KJV) [SUP]6 [/SUP]But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Seeking God requires effort on our part, yes?

This diligence is a daily, ongoing diligence. It must be kept up. The writer to the Hebrews is speaking to the church, not unbelievers.

Hebrews 10:38 (KJV) [SUP]38 [/SUP]Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Now, how do we prove we have the faith necessary?

James 2:17-24 (KJV) [SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. [SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? [SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? [SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (complete)[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Ephesians 2:10 (KJV) [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Here is our evidence of faith...... now being made able to produce good works, when before our salvation we could not.

While we can have a know-so salvation, we cannot have a 'say-so' only salvation

 

[RickyZ]

Really? isn't there already a thread on this subject going, which has lived long past it's usefulness? Paul says not to engage in endless debate... yet here it is, round two of the endless debate, even while round 1 is still going strong. Amazing.

Put aside the doctrinal divisions and join together to pray for someone! The person who's life is circling the drain couldn't care less about OSAS. All they want to know is that a faithful saint is praying for them somewhere.

Be that faithful saint. Not the endless debater.

 

[KJV1611]

Simple: A true believing follower of Jesus Christ who does not fall back into the temptations of the world.

If they do fall back into the temptations of the world, and don't repent and come back to the Lord then they don't get the crown of life.

Maybe we should go about this a different way. Could you write the following text in your own words? I want to see where you add "a true believing follower of Christ who does not fall back into temptations of the world".

Jas_1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Here's an example.
A man is blessed when he endures temptation.
When the man that endures temptation is tried, he will receive the crown of life. (Note, there is no mention of whether or not the man passes or fails the temptation.)
The crown of life is promised to those that love him.

 

[notuptome]

Hebrews 11:6 (KJV) [SUP]6 [/SUP]But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Seeking God requires effort on our part, yes?

This diligence is a daily, ongoing diligence. It must be kept up. The writer to the Hebrews is speaking to the church, not unbelievers.

Hebrews 10:38 (KJV) [SUP]38 [/SUP]Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Now, how do we prove we have the faith necessary?

James 2:17-24 (KJV) [SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. [SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? [SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? [SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (complete)[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Ephesians 2:10 (KJV) [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Here is our evidence of faith...... now being made able to produce good works, when before our salvation we could not.

While we can have a know-so salvation, we cannot have a 'say-so' only salvation

Your application of Hebrews 11:6 puts it in direct conflict with Romans 3:10-12

Until we are saved we cannot seek after God. This is why Christ came to seek and to save those who were lost.

It is nothing to say we know God. It is everything to say God knows me.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[kennethcadwell]

Really? isn't there already a thread on this subject going, which has lived long past it's usefulness? Paul says not to engage in endless debate... yet here it is, round two of the endless debate, even while round 1 is still going strong. Amazing.

Put aside the doctrinal divisions and join together to pray for someone! The person who's life is circling the drain couldn't care less about OSAS. All they want to know is that a faithful saint is praying for them somewhere.

Be that faithful saint. Not the endless debater.

He said put aside useless debates, not endless debates.

The reason this was said was because people would debate issues that do not have anything to do with salvation; like how old is the earth, when the rapture happens, and dinosaurs, and so on.....

Debates when it comes to ones salvation is not useless. Those who have just mere belief are not in a saved position, those who have true faith which is shown by their works/deeds ( producing good fruit ) are in a saved position.

We are trying to make sheep out of those who are walking around as goats ( mere believers ).

 

[Hoffco]

The tragedy of this "endless" YET "useful," "needed" debate is that no body even gets the WHOLE truth together. BOTH sides are true. I commend this bold young lady, and others, for her stand against this wicked evil teaching, "OSAS no matter how you live" heresy. The first year I was saved I went to Bible college and hated this teaching of so many PK's and MK's. They were so "shallow" in their holiness living that I rebelled against OSAS. It took 2 yrs of Bible studying to get me to see the Whole Bible teaching: Which is a cautious, careful blending of Cal. and Arm. doct.. If you understand the last point of Cal. as "Perseverance of the saints", you are on safer ground.

 

[KJV1611]

The tragedy of this "endless" YET "useful," "needed" debate is that no body even gets the WHOLE truth together. BOTH sides are true. I commend this bold young lady, and others, for her stand against this wicked evil teaching, "OSAS no matter how you live" heresy. The first year I was saved I went to Bible college and hated this teaching of so many PK's and MK's. They were so "shallow" in their holiness living that I rebelled against OSAS. It took 2 yrs of Bible studying to get me to see the Whole Bible teaching: Which is a cautious, careful blending of Cal. and Arm. doct.. If you understand the last point of Cal. as "Perseverance of the saints", you are on safer ground.

I haven't seen anyone prove that ones salvation can be lost... no matter how the person lives.

 

[JaumeJ]

The quote below is not proof of anything, just on the subject. Perhaps someone will explain it to me. God bless all in Jesus Christ, amen............



Heb 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,


Heb 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

[KJV1611]

The quote below is not proof of anything, just on the subject. Perhaps someone will explain it to me. God bless all in Jesus Christ, amen............



Heb 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,


Heb 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

What does "renew them to repentance" mean?

 

[JaumeJ]

It is self-explanatory. It means they cannot truly repent again......... There is another word for it, and that is being reprobate, unsaveable.

What does "renew them to repentance" mean?

 

[Hoffco]

I haven't seen anyone prove that ones salvation can be lost... no matter how the person lives.

A rose by any other name, is still the same; And a stink pot by any other name, is still the same. Jesus said, Judas was lost, "Not clean", thus a stink pot not a rose. Love a Rose, hate a stink pot. Hoffco

 

[kennethcadwell]

It is self-explanatory. It means they cannot truly repent again......... There is another word for it, and that is being reprobate, unsaveable.

The reason they are unable to be brought back to repent of their sins is because they are lead astray in the false teachings that;

a) you can still walk in willful sin and still be saved ( live however you want doctrine )

b) you only have to repent once and then all past, present, and future sins are forgiven ( false future sins are not forgiven )

 

[Atwood]

Ho Hum, back to Hebrew 6, without quoting through 6:9 (Again)

This is like the dog returning to his theillogical vomit. Heb 6 addresses apostasy, and a particular kind so drastic that the apostate cannot be renewed to his status as a professed Christian.

Now read the verses: They describe a man who was never saved at all -- the characteristics are less than those of a saved person, and fit Judas Iscariot:


4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God: 8 but if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned. 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded
better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:

 

[KJV1611]

It is self-explanatory. It means they cannot truly repent again......... There is another word for it, and that is being reprobate, unsaveable.

Repentance means to feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrong doing or sin. The verse only says that's it's impossible to renew them to the state of feeling sincere regret or remorse about their wrong doing or sin.

How do you get they lost their salvation out of that?
Do you think every one needs to be in a constant state of remorse over sin in order to remain saved?