To comfort those who speak in tongues
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P
When I see your pain -- when I see how others' words were perceived as hurtful, by you -- I rushed to your defense and you treated me like a saint.
When I see the reverse -- when I see you hurt others (and your friend, Ember) -- I challenge your comments and you treat me like a demon.
Love does not fail.
When I see the reverse -- when I see you hurt others (and your friend, Ember) -- I challenge your comments and you treat me like a demon.
Love does not fail.
P
No, in the uses I see and hear about it isn't a gift. I hear people going and asking for it when they should be seeking something else. That isn't what God wants from His people.
I'll explain it this way: When I started talking to my 2nd wife, an old schoolmate heart-throb, I asked Him if it was His will for me to marry her. He didn't answer the way I wanted, so I kept asking, refusing to accept the answer I got. After several months, He relented. And He told me I wasn't going to like it. Know what? He, as always, was right. It was probably the hardest period of my life and that includes being a single parent.
What does that have to do with this topic? Just this - He gave me what I wanted, but that wasn't a gift. A gift is freely given, out of love, not coercion.
And that is all you have? You can't respond to Paul's directive that you covet the best gifts? Every single person I hear on this forum advocating tongues is silent on what other gifts they have. They vociferously defend the least gift, yet they don't have the best gift?
Why is that?
I'll tell you why - one of several of reasons.
They didn't ask for the better gift(which is a violation of Christ's instructions to Paul).
They aren't spiritually mature enough to have the better gifts.
They don't have tongues - it is only babbling because peer pressure urged them to act silly.
Yet, even tho Paul said it, and I repeat it often, rather than growing up and becoming a mature adult in God's word, they cling to and defend something that has no edification in it.
Not one single scripture was ever written that was first spoken in tongues.
That's how important it is.
You tongues people need to get in the bible and study it. You are wrong about how you interpret it. You are a long way from having studied the bible enough to not be ashamed. Think about that. On judgement day God is gonna lay your life out like an open book, for all to see no doubt. How many times on those open pages will your bible study appear? Will you be ashamed before God?
It matters not what any man thinks of you. God is the one. Yet so many here try to defend their falseness, their aberrant doctrines, to man. Get mad at me all you want. It doesn't keep me awake at night. If you are comfortable with where you are in bible doctrine, in God's word, why are you so vehement? I am comfortable and confident in my knowledge of His word. I don't know all of the bible, not even a lot of it. But what I do know, I know thru study and prayer. And I know that I can talk to God about it as surely and confidently as I do you. Why? Because I got my knowledge and understanding the way He told me to.
I'll explain it this way: When I started talking to my 2nd wife, an old schoolmate heart-throb, I asked Him if it was His will for me to marry her. He didn't answer the way I wanted, so I kept asking, refusing to accept the answer I got. After several months, He relented. And He told me I wasn't going to like it. Know what? He, as always, was right. It was probably the hardest period of my life and that includes being a single parent.
What does that have to do with this topic? Just this - He gave me what I wanted, but that wasn't a gift. A gift is freely given, out of love, not coercion.
And that is all you have? You can't respond to Paul's directive that you covet the best gifts? Every single person I hear on this forum advocating tongues is silent on what other gifts they have. They vociferously defend the least gift, yet they don't have the best gift?
Why is that?
I'll tell you why - one of several of reasons.
They didn't ask for the better gift(which is a violation of Christ's instructions to Paul).
They aren't spiritually mature enough to have the better gifts.
They don't have tongues - it is only babbling because peer pressure urged them to act silly.
Yet, even tho Paul said it, and I repeat it often, rather than growing up and becoming a mature adult in God's word, they cling to and defend something that has no edification in it.
Not one single scripture was ever written that was first spoken in tongues.
That's how important it is.
You tongues people need to get in the bible and study it. You are wrong about how you interpret it. You are a long way from having studied the bible enough to not be ashamed. Think about that. On judgement day God is gonna lay your life out like an open book, for all to see no doubt. How many times on those open pages will your bible study appear? Will you be ashamed before God?
It matters not what any man thinks of you. God is the one. Yet so many here try to defend their falseness, their aberrant doctrines, to man. Get mad at me all you want. It doesn't keep me awake at night. If you are comfortable with where you are in bible doctrine, in God's word, why are you so vehement? I am comfortable and confident in my knowledge of His word. I don't know all of the bible, not even a lot of it. But what I do know, I know thru study and prayer. And I know that I can talk to God about it as surely and confidently as I do you. Why? Because I got my knowledge and understanding the way He told me to.
B
It is okay PW... I see your heart for the matter and DO recall exactly the same... having tread this path before you. From my view, I see how HS has taught you some very important truths here on CC and now is urging you into a new season away from here. Heaviness of heart is a beautiful gift accompanied by blessings... when gifted from the Lord. I do think this is the where you are now.... should you return here again in the future... you will be stronger in faith and fortified for greater service... peace brother. Amen
There is such a WRONG assumption in this whole thread.
And that is that people who do not speak in tongues do not have the Holy Spirit. This is totally unbiblical!
The Holy Spirit was first poured out on the church in Acts 2. The "signs" were tongues AND tongues of flames over their heads. The Spirit is represented as wind and fire, for this inauguration of the church. Please note, both that both the wind and the flames are both similies, using "like or as" - this was the SIGN of the birth of the church.
"When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3 And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:-4
There were "other" tongues, meaning other languages, which clearly comes out in Acts 2:8
"And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?" Acts 2:8
This sign of tongues had a specific purpose, and that was to witness to people in their own language as to Jesus Christ.
There are many places in Scripture that say that a believer MUST have the Spirit, but no mention of tongues. One Spirit, one body!
"For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit." 1 Cor. 12:13
This verse below is clear that if you do not have the Spirit of Christ, you are not a believer. Or said another way, a believer always has the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit comes into our hearts and lives when we are born again. No mention of tongues being needed or necessary.
"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him." Romans 8:9
Finally another strong verse which says we have the Holy Spirit, exclusive of tongues. We hear the word of truth, believe in the gospel of salvation, and then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit.
"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." Eph. 1:13-14
There simply is no case in which tongues are necessary to salvation, or having the Holy Spirit dwell in our hearts. But there is a strong case which says that WHEN WE ARE SAVED the Holy Spirit comes into our hearts and lives.
I know when I was first saved, the Holy Spirit was active in my life. He was leading and guiding me, and filling my heart and life with joy. But then I was told in Pentecostal/charismatic churches that I needed more, because I was empty. I wasn't empty, and it was a lie from both the congregation and the pulpit. I was so brain washed, I thought that no one but us "special people" with babbling tongues, which meant no one else had the Holy Spirit. That was a lie from the pit of hell.
When I started attending a Baptist church, the first day, the Holy Spirit spoke to me in a clear voice telling me I was to be a part of this church. But I still somehow thought Baptists didn't have the Holy Spirit and were "missing" something. Then one day, the pastor spoke a series of messages about the Holy Spirit, none of them to do with tongues, but rather how the Holy Spirit was indwelling from the moment of salvation, and we needed to listen and follow him.
I was stunned that Baptists knew about the Holy Spirit when I was told they did not. I heard more Bible, more strong teaching, and grew more than my 10 years in Pentecostal/charismatic churches, where the preaching was shallow and all focused on a few Scriptures in Acts 2.
I am not saying all charismatic/Pentecostal churches are shallow, I know there are preachers who are teaching the whole Bible, not just one minor part.
But I am saying I am a closer to Christ, walking in the Spirit than I ever was back in those churches where babbling and prophecy took the place of strong Biblical teaching.
I HAVE the Holy Spirit, and I renounced tongues a long time ago. Every believer has the Holy Spirit and tongues is just a modern psychological phenomena, the result of constant brain washing. (Not talking about actual languages used to witness - that is the Biblical model!)
And that is that people who do not speak in tongues do not have the Holy Spirit. This is totally unbiblical!
The Holy Spirit was first poured out on the church in Acts 2. The "signs" were tongues AND tongues of flames over their heads. The Spirit is represented as wind and fire, for this inauguration of the church. Please note, both that both the wind and the flames are both similies, using "like or as" - this was the SIGN of the birth of the church.
"When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3 And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:-4
There were "other" tongues, meaning other languages, which clearly comes out in Acts 2:8
"And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?" Acts 2:8
This sign of tongues had a specific purpose, and that was to witness to people in their own language as to Jesus Christ.
There are many places in Scripture that say that a believer MUST have the Spirit, but no mention of tongues. One Spirit, one body!
"For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit." 1 Cor. 12:13
This verse below is clear that if you do not have the Spirit of Christ, you are not a believer. Or said another way, a believer always has the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit comes into our hearts and lives when we are born again. No mention of tongues being needed or necessary.
"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him." Romans 8:9
Finally another strong verse which says we have the Holy Spirit, exclusive of tongues. We hear the word of truth, believe in the gospel of salvation, and then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit.
"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." Eph. 1:13-14
There simply is no case in which tongues are necessary to salvation, or having the Holy Spirit dwell in our hearts. But there is a strong case which says that WHEN WE ARE SAVED the Holy Spirit comes into our hearts and lives.
I know when I was first saved, the Holy Spirit was active in my life. He was leading and guiding me, and filling my heart and life with joy. But then I was told in Pentecostal/charismatic churches that I needed more, because I was empty. I wasn't empty, and it was a lie from both the congregation and the pulpit. I was so brain washed, I thought that no one but us "special people" with babbling tongues, which meant no one else had the Holy Spirit. That was a lie from the pit of hell.
When I started attending a Baptist church, the first day, the Holy Spirit spoke to me in a clear voice telling me I was to be a part of this church. But I still somehow thought Baptists didn't have the Holy Spirit and were "missing" something. Then one day, the pastor spoke a series of messages about the Holy Spirit, none of them to do with tongues, but rather how the Holy Spirit was indwelling from the moment of salvation, and we needed to listen and follow him.
I was stunned that Baptists knew about the Holy Spirit when I was told they did not. I heard more Bible, more strong teaching, and grew more than my 10 years in Pentecostal/charismatic churches, where the preaching was shallow and all focused on a few Scriptures in Acts 2.
I am not saying all charismatic/Pentecostal churches are shallow, I know there are preachers who are teaching the whole Bible, not just one minor part.
But I am saying I am a closer to Christ, walking in the Spirit than I ever was back in those churches where babbling and prophecy took the place of strong Biblical teaching.
I HAVE the Holy Spirit, and I renounced tongues a long time ago. Every believer has the Holy Spirit and tongues is just a modern psychological phenomena, the result of constant brain washing. (Not talking about actual languages used to witness - that is the Biblical model!)
P
Do you mean this in the sense of you sticking your fingers in your ears and going lalalalalala ? 
C'mon Roger, I have lost count of the many people who have tried to help you see where you are going wrong, but no! You are not having it!
C'mon Roger, I have lost count of the many people who have tried to help you see where you are going wrong, but no! You are not having it!
You, however, are stuck trying to point out someone else's shortcomings, while missing your own glaring ones.
E
Angela...I say the following respectfully and it really needs to be understood
NO ONE has said that if you do not speak in tongues you are not saved
That has been the accusation from those who say tongues are not for today...it has been repeated over and over by some in these forums and has been refuted over and over as well.
It is my understanding that someone did actually come along and say that...but in a different thread and if I remember correctly, they were eventually banned...they were certainly refuted...not by myself because I did not respond much in that thread
I have said a good number of times that you do not have to speak in tongues to be saved and have posted this verse:
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, Eph1:13
more than once and I believe it might be in this thread also
why is it that certain people can go about saying how hurt they were while stating I or someone else said something we never actually even said?
I'll tell you right now...when I read this:
it hurts me. I want to say to you...how can you say such things? you renounced tongues...well that was YOUR choice...another poster comes right out and states tongues is a demon spirit speaking through us...
you have one experience...I and many others have another. Trashing what we believe is true is not the way to go
I know full well that some churches are not following the biblical injunctions for tongues, but that is neither God's fault nor is it the fault of any save those who do such things
Reading your post, and not trying to insult you, it seems you have thrown things out because of what others do
well, we can only believe what we can accept...I doubt you or I would have accepted all that Paul was taught by the Holy Spirit and we probably would not have liked to live that life of faith either
What I am really finding troublesome is the contined line that we think you have to speak in tongues to be saved...that seems to be a major defense for some reason...it seems no matter how often we declare otherwise, we are still told that is what we say
not much a person can do but just repeat themself as I have done here
well, the Bible never says you are special if you speak in tongues...this was a lie you believed...that does not turn my experience or someone elses' experience sour
we should not judge truth by personal experience...we can testify or not...but for me, the Bible is plain on the subject of tongues
hope you understand this is not to castigate or hurt you in any way, but there are two sides and really, we are not saying and have not said you must speak in tongues
when I refer to the Holy Spirit with regards to the gifts, it seems clear to me that God gives those gifts to whom He chooses...many people will call themselves this or that or claim to be a teacher or pastor or whatever..but truthfully, if you refuse the gifts and say they are not for today or perhaps just some are, what are you really saying?
you may be saved, but you are not experiencing what God has for those who accept His gifts
this does not mean speaking in tongues either, because there are different gifts of course...but how can a person mock one and hate one and fight with those who say otherwise and then claim to love everyone?
You can reach your own cconclusions....my conscience is clear because I have not said what seems to be the big hue and cry
NO ONE has said that if you do not speak in tongues you are not saved
That has been the accusation from those who say tongues are not for today...it has been repeated over and over by some in these forums and has been refuted over and over as well.
It is my understanding that someone did actually come along and say that...but in a different thread and if I remember correctly, they were eventually banned...they were certainly refuted...not by myself because I did not respond much in that thread
I have said a good number of times that you do not have to speak in tongues to be saved and have posted this verse:
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, Eph1:13
more than once and I believe it might be in this thread also
why is it that certain people can go about saying how hurt they were while stating I or someone else said something we never actually even said?
I'll tell you right now...when I read this:
it hurts me. I want to say to you...how can you say such things? you renounced tongues...well that was YOUR choice...another poster comes right out and states tongues is a demon spirit speaking through us...
you have one experience...I and many others have another. Trashing what we believe is true is not the way to go
I know full well that some churches are not following the biblical injunctions for tongues, but that is neither God's fault nor is it the fault of any save those who do such things
Reading your post, and not trying to insult you, it seems you have thrown things out because of what others do
well, we can only believe what we can accept...I doubt you or I would have accepted all that Paul was taught by the Holy Spirit and we probably would not have liked to live that life of faith either
What I am really finding troublesome is the contined line that we think you have to speak in tongues to be saved...that seems to be a major defense for some reason...it seems no matter how often we declare otherwise, we are still told that is what we say
not much a person can do but just repeat themself as I have done here
well, the Bible never says you are special if you speak in tongues...this was a lie you believed...that does not turn my experience or someone elses' experience sour
we should not judge truth by personal experience...we can testify or not...but for me, the Bible is plain on the subject of tongues
hope you understand this is not to castigate or hurt you in any way, but there are two sides and really, we are not saying and have not said you must speak in tongues
when I refer to the Holy Spirit with regards to the gifts, it seems clear to me that God gives those gifts to whom He chooses...many people will call themselves this or that or claim to be a teacher or pastor or whatever..but truthfully, if you refuse the gifts and say they are not for today or perhaps just some are, what are you really saying?
you may be saved, but you are not experiencing what God has for those who accept His gifts
this does not mean speaking in tongues either, because there are different gifts of course...but how can a person mock one and hate one and fight with those who say otherwise and then claim to love everyone?
You can reach your own cconclusions....my conscience is clear because I have not said what seems to be the big hue and cry
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B
So WHOEVER can receive that I concur COMPLETELY with Ember's post #511 commenting to Angela's post. I am HAVE the HS and my response to reading Angels's post was "hey.... okay...sure... I get it... then awww NOOOO" for the very same "clauses" ember pointed to in her post.
THANK you Ember for responding so succinctly... because I was personally reviewing the very same "scripted response" in my spirit and sooooo NOT wanting to "argue" and "reprove" the issue AGAIN. PTL, I come back and merely have to AGREE with what you have said already... AMEN AMEN AMEN!
For any body who is paying attention... notice 2 witness agreement?
THANK you Ember for responding so succinctly... because I was personally reviewing the very same "scripted response" in my spirit and sooooo NOT wanting to "argue" and "reprove" the issue AGAIN. PTL, I come back and merely have to AGREE with what you have said already... AMEN AMEN AMEN!
For any body who is paying attention... notice 2 witness agreement?
K
I understand where you come from giving your background here, but just because some churches misuse the gift of tongues does not mean it is not still in affect today and used as God permits.
I understand the tongues at Pentecost were natural human languages, but I would like to know your take on what Paul said here;
1 Corinthians 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
The only continued defense that I see to say they have ceased comes from a bad rendering of 1 Corinthians 13's love chapter, where Paul is saying if they are done in part (without love) they will cease. That which is perfect is not the bible and in no way can that even be interjected there.
I understand the tongues at Pentecost were natural human languages, but I would like to know your take on what Paul said here;
1 Corinthians 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
The only continued defense that I see to say they have ceased comes from a bad rendering of 1 Corinthians 13's love chapter, where Paul is saying if they are done in part (without love) they will cease. That which is perfect is not the bible and in no way can that even be interjected there.