my last argument for obedience

[eternally-gratefull]

That's true. John 3:16 doesn't say whosoever believes, but the ones who believe. So that verse is a description, not how to be saved, but of GOD's love that caused him to send Christ to save all of the ones who believe.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

[SUP]18[/SUP]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Sorry, But if you take context, You see Jesus is not only telling nicodemus how to be saved, But everyone of us. He also tells us who is saved and who is not. Those who look up to the cross in faith (the serpent moses lifted up saved those who trusted God and looked up on it)

 

[FreeNChrist]

That's true. John 3:16 doesn't say whosoever believes, but the ones who believe. So that verse is a description, not how to be saved, but of GOD's love that caused him to send Christ to save all of the ones who believe.

.......huh?

 

[Grace777x70]

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

[SUP]18[/SUP]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Sorry, But if you take context, You see Jesus is not only telling nicodemus how to be saved, But everyone of us. He also tells us who is saved and who is not. Those who look up to the cross in faith (the serpent moses lifted up saved those who trusted God and looked up on it)

Excellent....this exposes the works-based salvationists religion.

Sometimes the terms being used can throw people off too.

Whenever some one sees the word "saved" in the scriptures - the Greek word for "saved" has many meanings associated with it.... it can mean two things -

1) - being saved from things on this earth

2) - going to be with the Lord because of His sacrifice and we believe in Him and have received His life and Holy Spirit in us.

These are two different topics even though the same word is used. This could be a reason why works-based beliefs come up with this losing your salvation in Christ theory.

Not understanding the difference between the quality of life lived in this earth and going to be with the Lord when we die can cause all kinds of mis-interpretations of scripture and really upset the faith of some.

Romans 11:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I understand this to be speaking of the general state of "belief in Jesus".... it was not intended to be a treatise on "how to be saved". It was more a statement of "if you believe in Jesus you'll be saved, if you don't believe in Jesus, you won't" I don't believe it was a complete description of how to be saved.

There are many scriptures that go into more detail about how to be saved, and baptism is mentioned in many of them. In fact most accounts of people being saved include their being baptized.

Many times it is mentioned that they are saved, then baptized. Several places mention believing, repenting, then baptism. Some scriptures mention being saved, and baptism is not mentioned.

Taking all of this into account, I believe baptism is a necessary thing to do as a part of salvation. Salvation is free.. it's a gift. As a result of this gift, we are baptized in obedience to Jesus teaching... it is not a "work" to earn salvation, it is an act of obedience to our Savior, and a new birth into His body.

What a convoluted mess.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Taking all of this into account, I believe baptism is a necessary thing to do as a part of salvation. Salvation is free.. it's a gift. As a result of this gift, we are baptized in obedience to Jesus teaching... it is not a "work" to earn salvation, it is an act of obedience to our Savior, and a new birth into His body.

Folks who have been overcome by the idea that any act of obedience is a "work of righteousness" have really gotten themselves into a pickle. Basically, they have become bound by a belief that hinders or prevents them from being obedient.

Being justified by "works of righteousness" means living in the commandments of the law of Moses and doing them. Since no one can do that, no man can be justified by "works of righteousness".

However, once we have been justified through Christ's death and been born again in baptism, we are in, not law, but Christ, who commands us to do what it takes to walk and remain in him. Such obedience are works of faith, not "works of righteousness" in the sense that Paul meant.

 

[Grace777x70]

The issue is if a person does not get water baptized before they die - some say they do not have remission of sins nor are they regenerated and in the body of Christ. This only happens when they get water baptized.

That is the issue..NOT whether one should get water baptized or not.

The smoke screen put up is saying that people do not believe in obedience after they come to Christ. This is to hide the false teaching of water regeneration and remission of sins. THAT is the real issue here.

In this theory of " a new birth into His body" - if a person that is a believer in Christ dies before he gets water baptized - then he is not in the body of Christ. The scripture teaches the exact opposite. In this theory someone who doesn't have get water baptized before he dies - he goes to hell. This is anti-the gospel.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Folks who have been overcome by the idea that any act of obedience is a "work of righteousness" have really gotten themselves into a pickle. Basically, they have become bound by a belief that hinders or prevents them from being obedient.

Being justified by "works of righteousness" means living in the commandments of the law of Moses and doing them. Since no one can do that, no man can be justified by "works of righteousness".

However, once we have been justified through Christ's death and been born again in baptism, we are in, not law, but Christ, who commands us to do what it takes to walk and remain in him. Such obedience are works of faith, not "works of righteousness" in the sense that Paul meant.

"For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus" Phil 1:6

"How foolish can you be? After starting your new lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?" Gal 3:3

 

[Vdp]

In #999 you HeRoseFromTheDead have completely missed the point of what the Holy Spirit was saying. John 3:16 is exactly how we receive Salvation.

This proves the point that you HeRoseFromTheDead has never received Salvation. Your eyes have been blinded to the Truth from God because you have refused to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

Water Baptism was never included in receiving Salvation. Water Baptism was to be done after a person had accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior and it never was required to enter into Heaven as we see with the Thief on the Cross who was never Baptized but yet Jesus said he would be with Him.

Through out all the Scriptures the Holy Spirit clearly teaches we will have false people among us trying to deceive us with their doctrines from Satan and i truly believe from what you have said over many threads that you are a false prophet.

 

[Grace777x70]

"For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus" Phil 1:6

"How foolish can you be? After starting your new lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?" Gal 3:3

Amen..notice in the post #1105 you were referring to that it is..."what it takes to walk and remain in him"..this is the works-based leaven thrown in with some truth.

This is called mixture and it is exactly what the Judaziers did to the people after Paul preached the pure gospel of the grace of Christ to them.

 

[Grace777x70]

In #999 you HeRoseFromTheDead have completely missed the point of what the Holy Spirit was saying. John 3:16 is exactly how we receive Salvation.

This proves the point that you HeRoseFromTheDead has never received Salvation. Your eyes have been blinded to the Truth from God because you have refused to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

Water Baptism was never included in receiving Salvation. Water Baptism was to be done after a person had accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior and it never was required to enter into Heaven as we see with the Thief on the Cross who was never Baptized but yet Jesus said he would be with Him.

Through out all the Scriptures the Holy Spirit clearly teaches we will have false people among us trying to deceive us with their doctrines from Satan and i truly believe from what you have said over many threads that you are a false prophet.

I agree with a lot of what you say...except I don't really believe HRFTD is a false prophet...he just doesn't understand the gospel of the grace of Christ and is trying to "maintain his salvation" by his works. I'm not sold yet on the idea he is doing it on purpose with his works-based beliefs.

This scripture below applies to him and to all of us in some respects I would imagine.

"How foolish can you be? After starting your new lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?" Gal 3:3

 

[FreeNChrist]

Amen..notice in the post #1105 you were referring to that it is..."what it takes to walk and remain in him"..this is the works-based leaven thrown in with some truth.

This is called mixture and it is exactly what the Judaziers did to the people after Paul preached the pure gospel of the grace of Christ to them.

And that leaven spoils it all.

 

[1ofthem]

I won’t even pretend that I have read this whole thread. So I am just jumping in the middle here. But I just can’t understand what the argument is here.

We all should know that we are saved by faith and grace, and once we are saved we are become a new person. We have to walk with Jesus and be obedient to him. Not that we are doing it of our own selves, but we are doing it by his grace and mercy. Never the less, we have to be willing and step out on faith so that he can strengthen us to do his will.

They used to sing a song when I was young that said, You take one step he’ll take two…There ain’t no limit what God can do….all you got to do is take that step.

We have to be willing to step out when God says to, but we are not stepping out on our own because God will be with us once we take that first step.

 

[Grace777x70]

And that leaven spoils it all.

Yes..it is deadly..it nullifies the grace of God in our lives.

 

[Vdp]

In #1005 you state HeRoseFromTheDead we are born again in Baptism.

If we are born again by Baptism then how can you explain the Thief on the cross?

Clearly you are teaching false doctrines trying to play god by putting yourself above God.

Again, this is more evidence you have never accepted Jesus nor do you have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You are what The Holy Spirit teaches in Matthew 7:15 about false prophets.

Matthew 7:15-23
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? [SUP]17 [/SUP]So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. [SUP]18 [/SUP]A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. [SUP]20 [/SUP]So then, you will know them by their fruits.


[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ [SUP]23 [/SUP]And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

 

[JaumeJ]

As being made anew, we have the law inscribed on the tablets of flesh, and if we meditte on them we know to follow them. Many say they are saved by grace only, and that is it, nothing more to be done, but those who are truly saved by grace will produce fruits of the grace and faith they have received. If the heart is blank, they have yet to learn what to obey. It is written to look to the Lord for this. Jesus Christ does teach us all what and how obedience is. He teaches us by His Word and by His example..
There are unbelievers who come into the room with the message that we cannot be like Jesus for we do not 4raise the dead and /or other of His works. These people are to be avoided for in place of joy they spread doubt and distrust. Of course we are to be as Jesus Christ, always knowing that He is the Only Perfect Man, and He is this for us, dwelling inside of us, so that when theFatehr looks at each of us, He sees Jesus in us, and does not hold the guilt of our transgressions against us.

Day by day, in Jesus, we are made better and better until we all are perfect! Now we know that perfection is not acheived in this age for any one of us, but, we also know the work God began in each one of us will be finished on His Day, and what a Great Day that will be. So it seems most of us will take a quantum leap to prfection after this age, but we all will be perfected, no doubt. What joy and what gladness for all, including our glorious Father, amen.

Do not be discouraged by those who say we cannot be like Jesus Christ, for the Word says when the time is here we will be just like Jesus Christ, amazing. Hallelujah, amen...

 

[FreeNChrist]

I won’t even pretend that I have read this whole thread. So I am just jumping in the middle here. But I just can’t understand what the argument is here.

We all should know that we are saved by faith and grace, and once we are saved we are become a new person. We have to walk with Jesus and be obedient to him. Not that we are doing it of our own selves, but we are doing it by his grace and mercy. Never the less, we have to be willing and step out on faith so that he can strengthen us to do his will.

They used to sing a song when I was young that said, You take one step he’ll take two…There ain’t no limit what God can do….all you got to do is take that step.

We have to be willing to step out when God says to, but we are not stepping out on our own because God will be with us once we take that first step.

It's the difference between, "we now have to walk with Jesus and be obedient to Him", and, "we are now privileged to walk with Jesus and be obedient to Him".

 

[Grace777x70]

I won’t even pretend that I have read this whole thread. So I am just jumping in the middle here. But I just can’t understand what the argument is here.

We all should know that we are saved by faith and grace, and once we are saved we are become a new person. We have to walk with Jesus and be obedient to him. Not that we are doing it of our own selves, but we are doing it by his grace and mercy. Never the less, we have to be willing and step out on faith so that he can strengthen us to do his will.

They used to sing a song when I was young that said, You take one step he’ll take two…There ain’t no limit what God can do….all you got to do is take that step.

We have to be willing to step out when God says to, but we are not stepping out on our own because God will be with us once we take that first step.

Amen...Obedience is a fruit of the life of Christ in our inner man. It is not the root. It's the love of God manifesting Himself in and through us to a hurt and dying world and to our fellow brethren.

Life in Christ is not about rules to obey or a behavior modification program. It's about an exchanged life in Christ and living out of His life that is in us so that He can bear His fruit in and through us. He gets all the glory!

We obey our Lord and Father because we know Him and trust in His character and obedience is not a set of rules, but a love-trust relationship. When we know the love of God for us we will obey Him naturally and effortlessly and all this is from an exchanged life.

I maintain that obedience is a fruit of the life of Christ in our inner man that is created in Christ. When we teach the grace of God this enables us to bear His fruit in and through us.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I agree with a lot of what you say...except I don't really believe HRFTD is a false prophet...he just doesn't understand the gospel of the grace of Christ and is trying to "maintain his salvation" by his works. I'm not sold yet on the idea he is doing it on purpose with his works-based beliefs.

This scripture below applies to him and to all of us in some respects I would imagine.

"How foolish can you be? After starting your new lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?" Gal 3:3

That's a completely fallacious translation of Galatians 3:3. The word human effort means flesh, which in the context Paul was writing means trying to be justified by the law of Moses. Lawless grace doctrine has subverted that meaning to mean any human effort. Extraordinary biblical ignorance.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Folks who have been overcome by the idea that any act of obedience is a "work of righteousness" have really gotten themselves into a pickle. Basically, they have become bound by a belief that hinders or prevents them from being obedient.

Thats not the pickle Everyone would teach we should seek after the things of the spirit, by observing the law of ove.

The pickle is when this said obedience is a pre-requisite to being eternally saved.

Obediencce is a good thing, legalism is dangerout things, capable of keeping people from heaven.

Being justified by "works of righteousness" means living in the commandments of the law of Moses and doing them. Since no one can do that, no man can be justified by "works of righteousness".

However, once we have been justified through Christ's death and been born again in baptism, we are in, not law, but Christ, who commands us to do what it takes to walk and remain in him. Such obedience are works of faith, not "works of righteousness" in the sense that Paul meant.

Works of faith, works of law. Same difference, a work is a work is a work. This is a tool by satan to get people to buy into the modern day pharisee sect. Instead of physical circumcision, we use physical baptism, Instead of jewish law and tradition, we use christian law and tradition.

change the names does not matter, It is still works. It still causes a man to boast, Because credit is taken from God, and given to the man doing the work.

Paul makes it clear. Not by works of righteousness which we have done (he does not differentiate between jesih works or church works) but BY HIS MERCY HE SAVED US.

it is a completed act. Not an ongoing event, And ONLY by his mercy.

 

[FreeNChrist]

That's a completely fallacious translation of Galatians 3:3. The word human effort means flesh, which in the context Paul was writing means trying to be justified by the law of Moses. Lawless grace doctrine has subverted that meaning to mean any human effort. Extraordinary biblical ignorance.

The translation you want use will not change the point it is expressing. Which is that what you teach is foolishness, because it is an attempt to usurp God by substituting your own activity for His.