my last argument for obedience

[Grace777x70]

Your skipping a part which must be done before any of this can take place.

before he can do this. He must save us, Make us his child. make us acceptable to him so he can THEN pour out his love in our hearts and change us.

Until he does this, He can not do anything, because we are dead, Lost to him, Unable to relate to him and him unable to relate to us, The barrier must be removed sin, Until then. No change can happen. or will happen..

Oh yeah, People might seem like christians, act like them in deed, and even play the part. but they are no more christian than the heathen who openly says he wants nothing to do with god.

True.....if all that there is to Christ's death and resurrection was a behavior modification program - then buddaists or any other clean living religious person could do the same thing.

I know there have been "good" people doing "righteous deeds " but they were not belonging to God. Many religions have moral living people in them - all doing "righteous deeds".


This is where the works-righteousness mindset misses the very purpose of Christ in our lives. He came so that we could be with Him and the Father because of their great love for us and the desire to be with us for all eternity.

The subtle difference is in this statement " to change our behavior from the inside out so that we may live with him forever" - reveals the leaven. This is anti-the gospel belief.

There is no understanding in the works-based mindset of the gospel of the grace of Christ only for salvation or what happened to us when we became one in Christ - that we are children of God now.

 

[Vdp]

How ,HeRoseFromTheDead, can we be born again in Baptism when clearly the Thief on the Cross was never Baptized?

We are born again by Faith, not by Baptism. Again you teach a work for Salvation doctrine. When will you listen and understand its by Faith we receive Salvation and not by any thing we do physically? Being Baptized is a physical action.

What you have done is taken Mark 16:16 and built a doctrine on Baptism being required to receive Salvation.

Now if you believe you have to be Baptized to receive Salvation, then its a sin to you if you are not Baptized. But, you cannot just pull one verse out of Scriptures and build a whole Doctrine around this verse while ignoring other verses that show its by Faith we receive Salvation.

You are not being a good steward of God when you deceive others with your false teachings.

God cannot and does not contradict Himself in the Scriptures.

Mark 16:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Ephesians 2:8,9
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

John 3:16
[SUP]6 [/SUP]“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Mark 16:16 does not say he who disbelieved or not Baptized shall be condemned. You are reading into this verse that which is not there.

Its not what you want to believe that counts HeRoseFromTheDead. What counts is doing the Will of the Father and teaching false doctrines is not doing the will of the Father.

I believe you really need to pray about this. Go before God, ask Him to help you understand what the Holy Spirit is saying in the Scriptures. Ask Him to help you understand what the Scriptures say. Look to God not to yourself for the Truth.

 

[B1Davanda]

Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead

•1~Folks who have been overcome by the idea that any act of obedience is a "work of righteousness"have really gotten themselves into a pickle. Basically, they have become bound by a belief that hinders or prevents them from being obedient. Being justified by "works of righteousness" means living in the commandments of the law of Moses and doing them. Since no one can do that,

•2~no man can be justified by "works of righteousness".However,

•3~once we have been justified through Christ's death and been

•4~born again in baptism, we are in, not law, but Christ,

•5~who commands us to do what it takes to walk and remain in him. Such obedience are works of faith, not "works of righteousness" in the sense that Paul meant.

●1~Like who? Who do you know that has been overcome by that idea? I think you're making up stories again. Can you name someone on this thread who has been overcome by that idea, or are you just making up stories to have another play-time arguement with yourself.You often talk about these 'folks' that believe certain things, but you never seem to say who these 'folks' are. If you tell us who they are, maybe we can help them.

●2~Not by works of righteousness which WE have done.By the righteousness of Christ.

●3~Don't forget the resurrection HEROSEFROMTHEDEAD!

●4~Born-again FROM ABOVE by the Holy Ghost baptism, not WATER-baptism.

●5~Wrong. He doesn't command us to 'do what it takes' to remain in Him. Galatians3:3~'Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?'~

 

[e_v_e]

as we live for Jesus we die. we live as if Hes the Lord, we learn and follow what He says and as we die we are given life simultaineaously more and more as we press forward. dying to the dead and living to the Lord

Yes, I love Paul for that....we have to die to the self and this world....die to the natural man.

 

[Vdp]

The problem is too many Christians are still in the natural man. To the natural man, steeped in his pride and arrogance, it seems too easy simply to "believe and be saved". The natural man desires to earn and achieve something that makes him feel more important. To the natural man its too humbling to "bow" before God and be set free from sin.

1 John 2:15-17
15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.16 For all that is in the world,the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.17 The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

 

[e_v_e]

The problem is too many Christians are still in the natural man. To the natural man, steeped in his pride and arrogance, it seems too easy simply to "believe and be saved". The natural man desires to earn and achieve something that makes him feel more important. To the natural man its too humbling to "bow" before God and be set free from sin.

1 John 2:15-17
15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.16 For all that is in the world,the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.17 The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

I agree......and I'm neither a calvinist or arminian. I don't go for such labels.....

 

[e_v_e]

Faith alone is a complicated topic. I for one do know the exact moment I met Him and had the Promise from Him of my new being. That didn't suddenly make me free of error. The way I understand the faith alone is really to skip the faith alone and see the actual point of the fact I met Him.

The actual point is that when His Soul is saved she is under the new law of love and won't be going for a final judgment but was justified by the cross. Now that doesn't mean that one stops continuously trying. I am even willing to say one can lose it all although I doubt it for the simple reason that no soul of His is going to give up their trust in Him after having experienced Him. It's such a strange concept that such a thing would happen it seems nearly impossible....which is how I think the faith alone concept arose to begin with.

Now, it may be nearly impossible, and so much so that Christians sometimes say that if someone falls away after being "saved" they must not have been saved.

I don't have much of an opinion because I feel it's above my pay grade unless He somehow gave me understanding on this point as I read the scripture. At the moment that point is a bit obscure to me.

Overall faith alone doesn't mean one has a blank check to go living in the natural man. If anything, the natural man begins to wither.

For myself, things I used to do and enjoy now hold zero interest to me...things of this world just don't seen vaguely attractive to me anymore. It's called dying as Paul explains it.

One can meet Him, and here is the problem, and not have died much. I met Him and I was so far from dead to this world that it's pathetic.

I've had to grow in my relationship to Him and listen to Him when I felt He was angry on me.

I for one am a christian who doesn't believe works in this world save me. But neither do I believe a cliche like faith alone. What I believe is that I can stay close to Him and trusting even though I live in this depraved world that will continually try to knock me out of my relationship with Him.

True, it's harder and harder for sa*an to find ways to pull me away from Him....but of course the tricks and trials continue and I'm continually humbled to take up my cross and continue.

 

[mailmandan]

It amazes me how Paul clearly said that we are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and that we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5) and that He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works (2 Timothy 1:9) yet certain folks still teach that we are saved by works of faith (which Paul NEVER said). Works of faith are good works and we are saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:10).

It's a shame that human pride will not allow works salvationists to come to Christ. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through faith. Saved by "these" works and just not "those" works is a flawed argument and is a desperate attempt by works salvationists to get around (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

 

[Grace777x70]

It amazes me how Paul clearly said that we are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and that we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5) and that He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works (2 Timothy 1:9) yet certain folks still teach that we are saved by works of faith (which Paul NEVER said). Works of faith are good works and we are saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:10).

It's a shame that human pride will not allow works salvationists to come to Christ. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through faith. Saved by "these" works and just not "those" works is a flawed argument and is a desperate attempt by works salvationists to get around (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

Amen...well said.

Those of us that are "doing deeds " of righteousness "in order to maintain" their salvation as it pertains to going to be with the Lord - are in fact denying the Lord and Master. They are trusting in what "they do" instead of what "He has already done."

2 Timothy 3:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

 

[mailmandan]

Amen...well said.

Those of us that are "doing deeds " of righteousness "in order to maintain" their salvation as it pertains to going to be with the Lord - are in fact denying the Lord and Master. They are trusting in what "they do" instead of what he has already done.

2 Timothy 3:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

Amen! Just like these many people in Matthew 7:22-23. Notice Lord, Lord, didn't "WE". Correct answer - Lord, Lord, didn't "YOU".

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It amazes me how Paul clearly said that we are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and that we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5) and that He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works (2 Timothy 1:9) yet certain folks still teach that we are saved by works of faith (which Paul NEVER said). Works of faith are good works and we are saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:10).

It's a shame that human pride will not allow works salvationists to come to Christ. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through faith. Saved by "these" works and just not "those" works is a flawed argument and is a desperate attempt by works salvationists to get around (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

It amazes you because you don't understand that when Paul mentioned works, he was referring to works of the law of Moses. You have fallen for the deception that any effort or work in faith is "works of righteousness". James makes clear that works of faith are a requisite component of saving faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It amazes you because you don't understand that when Paul mentioned works, he was referring to works of the law of Moses. You have fallen for the deception that any effort or work in faith is "works of righteousness". James makes clear that works of faith are a requisite component of saving faith.

We can not think this, Not every time Paul mentions works means he mentioned works of the law. Eph 2, no law was ever mentioned. His letter to titus, No law mentioned.

We should not assume things which are not there.

Not to mention. You have NT saints having a harder time to be saved, then OT, WHo we are told quite clearly, were never saved by the law. But by grace only.

 

[FreeNChrist]

It amazes me how Paul clearly said that we are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and that we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5) and that He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works (2 Timothy 1:9) yet certain folks still teach that we are saved by works of faith (which Paul NEVER said). Works of faith are good works and we are saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:10).

It's a shame that human pride will not allow works salvationists to come to Christ. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through faith. Saved by "these" works and just not "those" works is a flawed argument and is a desperate attempt by works salvationists to get around (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

You nailed it. It's all a reflection of our desire to be in control. We all want to be in charge of our life, including our eternal destiny. But God will have none of it. It's why so many rail against the Grace of God. It assaults our pride. It humiliates us.

It is only when we truly understand the nature of Grace, that we will decisively reject any confidence in ourselves, and trust ourselves totally to Jesus.

 

[Vdp]

AGAIN HeRoseFromTheDead you are totally wrong. Works of Faith are NOT required for Salvation.

Faith is from God. Grace is from God. Believing is NOT a work.

Tell me HeRoseFromTheDead what "Works of Faith" did the Thief do to receive Salvation shown in the Book of James?

James was talking about works of helping others that were cold and hungry.

Do you ever listen to the Holy Spirit? Or could it be your still walking as a natural man?

You always want to include the works that you do as requirements for your Salvation. Is your Pride that great that you are willing to put your efforts and works above God?

Believe and Receive. This is how we receive Salvation. Not do this work or that work to receive the faith. Faith is from God. Grace is from God. Faith is NOT from anything we do, its from God only.

 

[B1Davanda]

It amazes you because you don't understand that when Paul mentioned works, he was referring to works of the law of Moses. You have fallen for the deception that any effort or work in faith is "works of righteousness". James makes clear that works of faith are a requisite component of saving faith.

GOD makes clear, THROUGHOUT the BIBLE, including James, that good works follow salvation and are a companion as a result of it, but salvation itself comes BEFORE and APART from any good works on our part, whether it's 'works as law of Moses' or 'works as good deeds',
salvation is by what JESUS DID, not by what WE do.

'But after that the love and kindness of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, (savED), by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

That being justified by His grace, (read that again, 'Being justified by His grace'), we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed, (believED), in God might be careful to maintain good works. (that FOLLOW already having been savED). These things are good and profitable unto men.

But avoid foolish questions, and geneologies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; (something many of us need to take seriously), for they are unprofitable and vain.

A man that is a heretic after the first and second admonition reject; (something we also need to take seriosly),

Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.'

~Titus3:4-11~

(That is a hard saying, but after trying over and over and over again to show you and the handful of others that continue to 'like' your posts that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ, APART FROM any works, incuding water-baptism, efforts of obedience, etc., it's becoming more apparent that you're hardening your hearts to the grace of God, and aren't interested in the truth, and we may have to leave you to that sin and stop debating to no profit. We want you to be saved, but not if you really don't want to be.)

 

[1ofthem]

AGAIN HeRoseFromTheDead you are totally wrong. Works of Faith are NOT required for Salvation.

Faith is from God. Grace is from God. Believing is NOT a work.

Tell me HeRoseFromTheDead what "Works of Faith" did the Thief do to receive Salvation shown in the Book of James?

James was talking about works of helping others that were cold and hungry.

Do you ever listen to the Holy Spirit? Or could it be your still walking as a natural man?

You always want to include the works that you do as requirements for your Salvation. Is your Pride that great that you are willing to put your efforts and works above God?

Believe and Receive. This is how we receive Salvation. Not do this work or that work to receive the faith. Faith is from God. Grace is from God. Faith is NOT from anything we do, its from God only.

I can't speak for HeRoseFromTheDead, but maybe he isn't talking about working through the natural man or self righteousness. I think that if we are saved then Jesus can work through us if we allow him to. In one scripture Paul said that he had worked more than all of them, but he said it wasn't him working it was God working through him.

So my question is don't we have to be willing and obedient to let God work through us?

This is just my opinion here, but as for the thief on the cross wasn't he called at the last hour. It reminds me of the parable of the penny. They were all called to work from the beginning of the day until the end of the day. I'm sure the people who were hired in the morning had to work or do more things than those who started at the end of the day. Yet they all just received a penny for their wages. The thief was dying so he was hired at the end of the day.

Also what about the people who received the talents. The one that had only got one talent, took it and hid it in the ground. He did not put it to the usery or to work, and he got in trouble. The others put their talents to use and gained more talents.
I'm not saying that we should work of our own, but don't we have to let God work through us. What good are we if we say we believe, but don't walk with Jesus?

Also for the scripture where James is talking about love and helping others. It would be pointless the tell someone you loved them if you wasn't willing to help them in anyway. So isn't that the same thing as telling Jesus you believe in him and love him, but then in actions you deny him by going against his teachings and willfully sinning.

I'm not trying to be offensive to anyone. I'm just stating my views on it.

 

[gb9]

hello 1ofthem, just wanted to mention something you wrote : if you believe, but do not walk with Jesus. see, here is the point that gets missed by so many on here: if you believe, you WILL walk with Jesus.

the sad truth is, many say that they are Christians, but are not really. but that is for God to sort out, not us stand over each and be " fruit checkers". a real believer will do good works without the " threat " of losing salvation, judgement, hell, etc.

real Christians do not have to be forced to be good.

 

[B1Davanda]

I can't speak for HeRoseFromTheDead, but maybe he isn't talking about working through the natural man or self righteousness. I think that if we are saved then Jesus can work through us if we allow him to. In one scripture Paul said that he had worked more than all of them, but he said it wasn't him working it was God working through him.

So my question is don't we have to be willing and obedient to let God work through us?

This is just my opinion here, but as for the thief on the cross wasn't he called at the last hour. It reminds me of the parable of the penny. They were all called to work from the beginning of the day until the end of the day. I'm sure the people who were hired in the morning had to work or do more things than those who started at the end of the day. Yet they all just received a penny for their wages. The thief was dying so he was hired at the end of the day.

Also what about the people who received the talents. The one that had only got one talent, took it and hid it in the ground. He did not put it to the usery or to work, and he got in trouble. The others put their talents to use and gained more talents.
I'm not saying that we should work of our own, but don't we have to let God work through us. What good are we if we say we believe, but don't walk with Jesus?

Also for the scripture where James is talking about love and helping others. It would be pointless the tell someone you loved them if you wasn't willing to help them in anyway. So isn't that the same thing as telling Jesus you believe in him and love him, but then in actions you deny him by going against his teachings and willfully sinning.

I'm not trying to be offensive to anyone. I'm just stating my views on it.

Yes, but did you even READ the post right before yours, #1055?
Those good works FOLLOW salvation, having ALREADY been saved.
What hrfd and others like him keep insisting, falsely, is that salvation is DEPENDENT on things WE do, such as water-baptism or efforts of our own self-obedience, etc. That has been the on-going debate, not whether or not we should do good things...that was just shown in the post preceding yours.
When we do good works it's a result of having salvation, not as an attempt to aquire or keep it. Do you see the difference?

 

[Grace777x70]

There is a massive difference between 1) doing deeds to "maintain" salvation and to go to be with the Lord when you die and 2) to doing good deeds from the life of Christ that is in you because you are already saved.

The first one above 1) is works-righteousness and the other 2) is doing good deeds because we are saved. It is a fruit of salvation.

Doing righteous deeds by themselves does not make one righteous. This is having the cart before the horse.

I know there have been "good" people doing "righteous deeds " but they were not belonging to God. Many religions have moral living people in them - all doing "righteous deeds".

Here is how righteousness comes to a believer....we need to be righteousness conscious...not sin-conscious...we have a new creation in Christ now!

This "righteousness " will manifest outwardly in doing righteous deeds - but we need the "horse" in front first.

The "horse" being Christ's righteousness in us because of our being in Christ in our inner man..our new creation in Christ.

Awake to who you are in Christ!..Awake to righteousness and sin not..when you see who you are in Him in your new man..you become like Him outwardly.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.


Hebrews 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13[/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 54:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "In righteousness you will be established; You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear; And from terror, for it will not come near you.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we mightbecome the righteousness of God in Him.

When you see who you are in Christ because of His finished work...you become outwardly in behavior what you are truly like in your new inner man where Christ dwells.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I can't speak for HeRoseFromTheDead, but maybe he isn't talking about working through the natural man or self righteousness. I think that if we are saved then Jesus can work through us if we allow him to. In one scripture Paul said that he had worked more than all of them, but he said it wasn't him working it was God working through him. .

You are correct.