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S
I think most of the Sabbath observers on this thread should be honest and admit they are accusing non-observers of being in sin, whether openly or not.
Isn't this why SDAs proselytize non-SDA believers, sometimes not clearly identifying themselves on the Bible study announcements and publications?
I think most Sabbath observers holds that position, but they try to hide it. That's my big concern with their view. I have no issue with those who observe Sabbath and festivals without making this accusation, but in reality that is the underlying implicit or explicit claim of most.
And, once someone takes the approach that a non-observer is in sin, I throw them in the heretic bucket. I have no issue with Sabbath observers who don't make that claim, but when they do, I throw them in the heretic bucket. I was in the heretic bucket myself as an Armstrongite. I'm not going back into it.
And..if I am the one with bad theology, how can you honestly support all the SDA dietary assertions?
You know that the Bible speaks nothing of forbidding all the foods SDAs claim should not be eaten. Alcohol, spices, coffee, tea, pickles, chocolate, eating vegetables with fruit in the same meal, meat, eggs, etcetera. Jesus and the disciples wouldn't even meet SDA standards.
They ate lamb. They drank wine. They ate fish. They ate eggs..in fact Christ spoke of a father giving an egg to his child as a good gift.
In addition, why do SDAs allow abortions? They allow abortion for members who are pregnant due to rape, incest, and severe congenital deformities (including Downs' Syndrome). Do not such children have a right to live? Did not God initiate the process of birth? Wouldn't interrupting this process, once conception has occurred, be a sin? Nope, I guess not..maybe it's because abortion isn't listed explicitly in the Ten Commandments..it's probably not even in the Torah..that's what happens when one is not Spirit-led and lives by the letter of the law. A Spirit-led believer knows intuitively that abortion is sin. In their health care facilities, they perform elective abortions. I guess it's ok if the mother is a non-Adventist to slaughter them regardless of reason. While loudly proclaiming the Sabbath, they are engaged in dismembering children in the womb. I guess they are fair game until they become a "breather".
Abortion in Adventism
I saw a website where a SDA refuses to do bible studies on the Sabbath now because he has been laughed at by Roman Catholics who point out the obvious inconsistencies of claiming the Sabbath applies while his own organization is allowing abortion, and SDA health care facilities are performing elective abortions. I guess the 4th commandment trumps the one over murder.
So, you guys can answer for your inconsistencies.
It would be nice, gotime, if you could simply state that you don't agree with your church on this issue but I've brought it up multiple times and you haven't denounced your church's teaching on this subject. To be honest, I think you are indoctrinated by your organization and will not say anything in opposition to their teachings. I was the same way about Armstrongism. To question the church on any of its teachings was the same thing as challenging God, to them. That's why I like belong to the Evangelical Free church I attend. They categorize doctrines by essentials and non-essentials, and their essentials are core Christianity, so I have no reason to question those doctrines, as I've proven them Scripturally. Neither would they endorse anything as grossly immoral as abortion.
As I've said, I would consider fellowshipping in a church that observes the weekly Sabbath and festivals if they didn't judge non-observers as being in sin, so my issue isn't with the Sabbath or festivals, but with the accusing, condemning mentality that accompanies most of the observers. I don't want accusers as friends and I don't want to associate with them. They draw a line between us so I respect their line.
Isn't this why SDAs proselytize non-SDA believers, sometimes not clearly identifying themselves on the Bible study announcements and publications?
I think most Sabbath observers holds that position, but they try to hide it. That's my big concern with their view. I have no issue with those who observe Sabbath and festivals without making this accusation, but in reality that is the underlying implicit or explicit claim of most.
And, once someone takes the approach that a non-observer is in sin, I throw them in the heretic bucket. I have no issue with Sabbath observers who don't make that claim, but when they do, I throw them in the heretic bucket. I was in the heretic bucket myself as an Armstrongite. I'm not going back into it.
And..if I am the one with bad theology, how can you honestly support all the SDA dietary assertions?
You know that the Bible speaks nothing of forbidding all the foods SDAs claim should not be eaten. Alcohol, spices, coffee, tea, pickles, chocolate, eating vegetables with fruit in the same meal, meat, eggs, etcetera. Jesus and the disciples wouldn't even meet SDA standards.
They ate lamb. They drank wine. They ate fish. They ate eggs..in fact Christ spoke of a father giving an egg to his child as a good gift.
In addition, why do SDAs allow abortions? They allow abortion for members who are pregnant due to rape, incest, and severe congenital deformities (including Downs' Syndrome). Do not such children have a right to live? Did not God initiate the process of birth? Wouldn't interrupting this process, once conception has occurred, be a sin? Nope, I guess not..maybe it's because abortion isn't listed explicitly in the Ten Commandments..it's probably not even in the Torah..that's what happens when one is not Spirit-led and lives by the letter of the law. A Spirit-led believer knows intuitively that abortion is sin. In their health care facilities, they perform elective abortions. I guess it's ok if the mother is a non-Adventist to slaughter them regardless of reason. While loudly proclaiming the Sabbath, they are engaged in dismembering children in the womb. I guess they are fair game until they become a "breather".
Abortion in Adventism
I saw a website where a SDA refuses to do bible studies on the Sabbath now because he has been laughed at by Roman Catholics who point out the obvious inconsistencies of claiming the Sabbath applies while his own organization is allowing abortion, and SDA health care facilities are performing elective abortions. I guess the 4th commandment trumps the one over murder.
So, you guys can answer for your inconsistencies.
It would be nice, gotime, if you could simply state that you don't agree with your church on this issue but I've brought it up multiple times and you haven't denounced your church's teaching on this subject. To be honest, I think you are indoctrinated by your organization and will not say anything in opposition to their teachings. I was the same way about Armstrongism. To question the church on any of its teachings was the same thing as challenging God, to them. That's why I like belong to the Evangelical Free church I attend. They categorize doctrines by essentials and non-essentials, and their essentials are core Christianity, so I have no reason to question those doctrines, as I've proven them Scripturally. Neither would they endorse anything as grossly immoral as abortion.
As I've said, I would consider fellowshipping in a church that observes the weekly Sabbath and festivals if they didn't judge non-observers as being in sin, so my issue isn't with the Sabbath or festivals, but with the accusing, condemning mentality that accompanies most of the observers. I don't want accusers as friends and I don't want to associate with them. They draw a line between us so I respect their line.
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S
I am not an Israelite under the Mosaic Covenant. Therefore their covenant signs mean nothing to me in terms of a requirement. Neither physical circumcision or the Sabbath. They are valuable shadows and types, though.
I view the Sabbath in exactly the same way as physical circumcision.
I have already presented why I do not consider the Sabbath to be a moral law. I won't repeat myself.
In addition, regarding the many comments on Christians keeping the commandments, I agree..the commandments that apply to THEM not ancient Israel. I strive to obey God's moral law and the commandments that apply to ME not the ones SDAs or Armstrongites or Torah observers deem to be applicable to me. Their opinions on the issue are ill-informed, and they ignore other Scriptures in opposition to them.
Do you consider non-observers of the Sabbath to be in sin?
As I have said, I have no issue with Sabbath observers who don't make the claim others are in sin. Once they do that, they go in the heretic bucket. I don't want them as friends and don't want to associate with them. They draw a line so I respect their line.
I view the Sabbath in exactly the same way as physical circumcision.
I have already presented why I do not consider the Sabbath to be a moral law. I won't repeat myself.
In addition, regarding the many comments on Christians keeping the commandments, I agree..the commandments that apply to THEM not ancient Israel. I strive to obey God's moral law and the commandments that apply to ME not the ones SDAs or Armstrongites or Torah observers deem to be applicable to me. Their opinions on the issue are ill-informed, and they ignore other Scriptures in opposition to them.
Do you consider non-observers of the Sabbath to be in sin?
As I have said, I have no issue with Sabbath observers who don't make the claim others are in sin. Once they do that, they go in the heretic bucket. I don't want them as friends and don't want to associate with them. They draw a line so I respect their line.
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S
You didn't answer my question....if a Gentile master would not allow his Christian slave to observe the Sabbath, would he lose his salvation under your theology? Do you honestly think this situation did not present itself in the early Church?
Further, do you think the faithful Israelites observed the Sabbath during the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities?
By the way, for the Torah observers that are reading this thread, they could not have been obedient to Torah during this period.
I can tell you how I would have answered the Sabbath question as an Armstrongite. I would have said that the slave needed to forfeit his life if necessary to keep the Sabbath. In other words, keeping the Sabbath was an absolute requirement for salvation.
The silence in the Pauline epistles in regards to this issue is telling. So is the fact that Sabbath-breaking and eating unclean meats is never mentioned in any of the epistles to the Gentiles and in any of the sin lists they include.
Do you consider non-observers of the Sabbath to be in sin?
This meme reminds me of my Armstrongite past. I was told as a seeker that God wouldn't open my mind up to "the truth" (their heretical teachings) unless I started keeping the Sabbath. I think this sort of mentality still exists amongst many Sabbath observers.
Further, do you think the faithful Israelites observed the Sabbath during the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities?
By the way, for the Torah observers that are reading this thread, they could not have been obedient to Torah during this period.
I can tell you how I would have answered the Sabbath question as an Armstrongite. I would have said that the slave needed to forfeit his life if necessary to keep the Sabbath. In other words, keeping the Sabbath was an absolute requirement for salvation.
The silence in the Pauline epistles in regards to this issue is telling. So is the fact that Sabbath-breaking and eating unclean meats is never mentioned in any of the epistles to the Gentiles and in any of the sin lists they include.
Do you consider non-observers of the Sabbath to be in sin?
This meme reminds me of my Armstrongite past. I was told as a seeker that God wouldn't open my mind up to "the truth" (their heretical teachings) unless I started keeping the Sabbath. I think this sort of mentality still exists amongst many Sabbath observers.
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Sabbath debate?
Show when God changed the order of the week that the Sabbath is not the seventh day. He did not change it.
Show where man changed the order of the week making the seventh day the first day.........this you are able to do, but nothing more.
Now think real hard. Is God's will to be done or mankind's¿ Not a hard question really.
Show when God changed the order of the week that the Sabbath is not the seventh day. He did not change it.
Show where man changed the order of the week making the seventh day the first day.........this you are able to do, but nothing more.
Now think real hard. Is God's will to be done or mankind's¿ Not a hard question really.
Is not God the same always? Is not the creation story about the first week of time? The Seventh Day is a commandment, certainly, but first it was a gift to mankind.
What God has given as a gift I cannot deny. Many folks use Paul's teachings to justify just about anything, so why not I?
If I revere one day over another, it is not a sin if it is with a clear conscience.
If another reveres the first day as teh seventh day, I will not fault him, but do not pervert the order God has given to the week of creation just because your Sabbath is different from the gift given by God.
Also, gentiles continually call Sunday the Sabbath, so how much more is needed to demonstrate they are putting words into God's mouth. This is called apostasy, when traditions of mankind are taught as commandment from God, and this is undeniable.
What God has given as a gift I cannot deny. Many folks use Paul's teachings to justify just about anything, so why not I?
If I revere one day over another, it is not a sin if it is with a clear conscience.
If another reveres the first day as teh seventh day, I will not fault him, but do not pervert the order God has given to the week of creation just because your Sabbath is different from the gift given by God.
Also, gentiles continually call Sunday the Sabbath, so how much more is needed to demonstrate they are putting words into God's mouth. This is called apostasy, when traditions of mankind are taught as commandment from God, and this is undeniable.
S
My argumentation isn't weak, but Sabbath observers simply won't accept it regardless, except for the handful which really don't judge non-observers. It's a poor investment of my time to discuss anything with the rest. I do fear the future of the church in this regard, though, particularly with some in the Hebrew Roots Movement and Messianic Judaism. They have the potential for creating division in the church, just like the Judaizers did.
There are individuals who come in the Bible Study room discussing Sabbath and festivals and infer that non-observers are in danger of eternal punishment, specifically quoting these verses:
Matthew 7: [SUP]21 [/SUP]“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [SUP]22 [/SUP]On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ [SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
They don't come right out and say it in a manner that would result in a ban, but I know their meaning, and what they are trying to say. The inference is that if the rest in the room are not Torah observant, they are to fear eternal punishment, specifically on the Sabbath, festivals, and clean meat laws. So, I am really fed up with this sort of mentality from anyone, and those individuals are not people I want to talk with in the future. If someone claims non-observers are facing eternal punishment, then I have nothing to say to them, and don't consider them a friend.
A SDA made similar inferences concerning Isaiah 66:17 and clean meat laws.
Isaiah 66:17 [SUP]17 [/SUP]“Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig's flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the Lord.
Again, there was an implicit claim that those who eat unclean meats are facing eternal punishment.
There are individuals who come in the Bible Study room discussing Sabbath and festivals and infer that non-observers are in danger of eternal punishment, specifically quoting these verses:
Matthew 7: [SUP]21 [/SUP]“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [SUP]22 [/SUP]On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ [SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
They don't come right out and say it in a manner that would result in a ban, but I know their meaning, and what they are trying to say. The inference is that if the rest in the room are not Torah observant, they are to fear eternal punishment, specifically on the Sabbath, festivals, and clean meat laws. So, I am really fed up with this sort of mentality from anyone, and those individuals are not people I want to talk with in the future. If someone claims non-observers are facing eternal punishment, then I have nothing to say to them, and don't consider them a friend.
A SDA made similar inferences concerning Isaiah 66:17 and clean meat laws.
Isaiah 66:17 [SUP]17 [/SUP]“Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig's flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the Lord.
Again, there was an implicit claim that those who eat unclean meats are facing eternal punishment.
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What has that to do with what we are talking about sparkman? how does that impact a study on origins and purpose of the Sabbath?
I will leave it because you clearly do not want to address the origins of the Sabbath and its purpose. I study the bible systematically. In other words I start at the start and work thought to get a picture. I don't like the old start half way through and then assume upon the start. Starting at the beginning gets rid of assumptions. That is why I do it that way. But anyway Ill leave it as the convo is bearing no fruit.
I will leave it because you clearly do not want to address the origins of the Sabbath and its purpose. I study the bible systematically. In other words I start at the start and work thought to get a picture. I don't like the old start half way through and then assume upon the start. Starting at the beginning gets rid of assumptions. That is why I do it that way. But anyway Ill leave it as the convo is bearing no fruit.
R
You know this a difficult thing to discuss, because we don't know where people are in their walk with God. Some are set in their thinking and have totally understood what Jesus did at the Cross and to derail them from their walk would be shameful. If keeping Sabbath keeps you in the walk, then keep it. But, I would not place my faith in it. If you do, then you will fail, but I guess we all have to walk the walk. It's like telling your son not to stick his hand in the fire then he doe's and then understands why not to do that.
Jesus is where I put my faith and trust but this thread is about the Sabbath and the thing that always has made an impact on me is the fact that God spoke from the mountain and then wrote with His finger in stone the 10 Commandments. Most of them start with Thou shalt not, but we have one that says Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy....Now why would God say Remember unless most of us have forgotten?
Another commandment says Honor your Father and your Mother.....
If you look at the 10 as a whole the first 4 show love and loyalty toward God doing what He asked us to do toward Him and the last 6 show us how to love our neighbor as ourselves. The two commandments spoken of in the New Testament summarize the 10 listed in the Old Testament.... God does not change....
This isn't about being saved because you worship on a specific day it is about listening to what God has asked of us and leaning on the Holy Spirit to equip us to do what has been asked.... We lean on Jesus and are thankful He did for us what we can't do for ourselves.... thankfulness and love, worship and praise all go to God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.... for giving us a way out of the law of sin and death not a way to ignore God's law but to trust Him (Jesus) to save us.....
Another commandment says Honor your Father and your Mother.....
If you look at the 10 as a whole the first 4 show love and loyalty toward God doing what He asked us to do toward Him and the last 6 show us how to love our neighbor as ourselves. The two commandments spoken of in the New Testament summarize the 10 listed in the Old Testament.... God does not change....
This isn't about being saved because you worship on a specific day it is about listening to what God has asked of us and leaning on the Holy Spirit to equip us to do what has been asked.... We lean on Jesus and are thankful He did for us what we can't do for ourselves.... thankfulness and love, worship and praise all go to God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.... for giving us a way out of the law of sin and death not a way to ignore God's law but to trust Him (Jesus) to save us.....