WOF is Heresy & Should be Avoided at all Costs!

ladylynn · Jun 11, 2016

Roasting Pastor Prince yet again? Sheeshhh I'm a Christian woman who has been blessed greatly by the ministry of Joseph Prince and those like him who preach about the grace of God in Christ. and can say without a doubt the nasty things posted about him are not the truth. I'm very thankful for this brother in Christ and pray for him and his family. Have listened to him for 3 years now and the mixed up accusations here are so wacky words just can't express how wacky. And when words do express the truth, those who would rather believe the false accusations will do so regardless of what is said no matter how true. That is the nature of gossip.

Stephen63 · Jun 11, 2016

posthuman said:

i was just looking at commentaries for this verse, & it is apparent that the phrase "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" is not in about half of the Greek manuscripts we have for this book. so the consensus of scholars is that Paul's original document probably did not have these words here.

this phrase is borrowed from Romans 8:4 -- and the exclusion of it in verse 1 does not by any means change what Paul is saying. if you read the whole book of Romans, and especially all the surrounding context of this verse, there is no way to come away with the thought that we can just walk after the flesh all the time and think that we are "abiding in Christ" -- that same thought that the KJV includes here but almost no others do ((not because of conspiracy, but because of scholarship)) is present in Romans 8:4 in every translation. it is not a "deleted idea" like a KJV-only conspiracy-theorist would have us believe it is.

commentaries i was looking at are here:
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/romans/8-1.htm

you can see the Greek here and that about half of the manuscripts don't have it here:
http://biblehub.com/text/romans/8-1.htm

and you can see a bigger list of which translations have and don't have it ((by no means a complete list)) here:
http://biblehub.com/romans/8-1.htm

of course, i'm just poking around and am not a "scholar" by any means. someone who has studied and been trained in this sort of thing may chime in to let us know better why this isn't in most translations, and why so many manuscripts don't include it.

You may have said more than you realize. If someone honestly "just poking around" can discover this much truth, how can others who say they "know the scriptures" back such horrific heresy?

IMO we'd have less disputing in the BDF if everyone did that.

Willie-T · Jun 11, 2016

UnderGrace said:

Yeah, Bible College had me "believing" so much foolishness, that I almost lost sight of what "belief" really is.

posthuman · Jun 11, 2016

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

something that i think goes hand-in-hand with comprehending what Peter is saying here, that leads me to thinking about it the way i described ((though like you, i'm not able to say i've "grasped" it)) is this other passage Peter also wrote --

. . He rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)
(2 Peter 2:7-8)

this isn't right-in-your-face-clear from the story of Lot in Genesis, and to me it was a bit of a shock to read this for the first time, because from what i had first learned in Genesis, i always thought of Lot as sort of a 'black sheep' in Abraham's family, what i've heard people describe in the modern day as a 'fringe Christian,' sort of toeing the line between being good and being friends with the world. a 'prodigal son' in some way, maybe. you have to ask yourself why he was living in Sodom - but maybe it was the good land, after all, which was what the Biblical narrative says was his reason for choosing that part of the country in the first place.

seeing what Peter writes here, i had to adjust my thinking, and i realized i was judging Lot without any cause to. would i want to live in Las Vegas? 'Sin City' they call it? no! but are there believers there? true Christians? i sure bet there are, and i bet they are 'vexed' and 'greatly distressed' by what they daily witness, but also have good reasons to not simply move away - maybe they can't for a variety of reasons, and maybe they feel like they have opportunity, calling and purpose to minister to mankind in some of his vilest states.

that's a little off-topic, but more to the point Peter says Lot is 'greatly distressed' by the depravity around him, and that is sort of ascribed to him as righteousness. so i wonder if in ourselves, being 'greatly distressed' by our own sin, leading to humility, leading to character, and mercy towards others, leading to good behaviour and thankfulness toward God -- if this isn't part of what Peter means by 'ceasing from sin' by 'suffering in the flesh' . . ?

Stunnedbygrace · Jun 11, 2016

I reallyhave enjoyed listening to you speak posthuman.good
night all!a wful lag here. So sorry!

Stephen63 · Jun 11, 2016

ladylynn said:

He believes in WOF & has said so. He believes & teaches Hypergrace, a known heresy. He believes Jesus had to suffer in hell for 3 days to bring our salvation, that dying on the cross wasn't enough.

Now, you can gossip that I am gossipping, believe I'm a heresy hunter like amber does,..... or..... you can be a berean & search it out yourself. Don't blame & frame if you don't have the facts. Do the homework..... it will shock yer socks off.

NarrowRoadDisciple · Jun 11, 2016

Stephen63 said:

Indeed, and in reference to the Romans 8:1 inclusion/exclusion issue, we do find issues of manuscript accuracy. Just because some do not contain it or "older" manuscripts do not contain it does not mean it was not meant to be there. Some manuscripts do have issues. It is a good study, but I do not automatically hold to the idea that "older manuscripts are more accurate or better than newer manuscripts."

We do not have original manuscripts anymore. Manuscripts are copies of copies of copies ad nauseum. The originals have all degraded. Perhaps some manuscripts that are used more, copied more often, and appear newer.... may be more accurate? Granted, we do look for distance from the autographa, but there are other factors to consider.

Stephen63 · Jun 11, 2016

Now, back to amber..... how many saw she started a thread about heresy hunting, got about 75% of the posters down on her for judging, then told the mods to close her thread 'cuz almost nobody agreed with her?

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/137463-heresy-hunters-other-religious-types-6.html

Now, dear amber, who am I heresy hunting now? Your whole thread was about this one & how bad we are for exposing heretics leading the church astray. Would you like me to post where you was rightly accused of judging us for allegedly judging others? Or will you now try to close my thread, too?

crossnote · Jun 11, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

People have looked at it. They are wonderful scriptures of the grace and love of our Lord for us!

In revelation 2 one of the people that Jesus called to repent ( change your mind ) is Jezebel . Here are below some great grace-based teaching on this subject and many others too.

I like to use this website below as it tackles the obscure scriptures and often false assumptions and accusations about the grace of Christ.

It's important to feed ourselves in the areas that the Lord is bringing to us to look into so that we can grow in the grace and knowledge of Him.

Rest assured it is NOT our Advocate that is accusing us. He does love us and correct us but never accuses us. That is the very name of satan is accuser. I can assure you that Jesus is not satan.

There are a number of articles about the people in Revelation 2 and 3..:

Strike Her Children Dead (Revelation 2:23) ( Jezebel one )

https://escapetoreality.org/2015/06/...velation-2v23/

This one is all about the Laodicean church.

https://escapetoreality.org/category/laodicean-church/

This one is about " Incomplete Deeds: The Zombie Church of Sardis (Rev 3:1-6)"

https://escapetoreality.org/2010/04/...rdis-rev-31-6/

Here is one about." Forsaking Your First Love: What Was the Ephesians’ Problem? (Rev 2:1-7)"

https://escapetoreality.org/2010/04/...blem-rev-21-7/

Here is one about " Holding Fast in Thyatira: The Seductress versus the Savior (Rev 2:18-29)

https://escapetoreality.org/2010/04/...or-rev-218-29/

Since you gave me referrals. I'll refer you back to Angela's fantastic post #76.

NarrowRoadDisciple · Jun 12, 2016

Stephen63 said:

Now, back to amber..... how many saw she started a thread about heresy hunting, got about 75% of the posters down on her for judging, then told the mods to close her thread 'cuz almost nobody agreed with her?

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/137463-heresy-hunters-other-religious-types-6.html

Now, dear amber, who am I heresy hunting now? Your whole thread was about this one & how bad we are for exposing heretics leading the church astray. Would you like me to post where you was rightly accused of judging us for allegedly judging others? Or will you now try to close my thread, too?

Let's let that forum thread rest lol. It opened up a can of worms way too big.

Grace777x70 · Jun 12, 2016

Angela53510 said:

Hi Angela,...thank you for giving us your opinions.

I woke up and saw this post and I have to disagree with the stuff above highlighted in green. We don't turn from sin and then come to Jesus - that is NOT the gospel. We come to Jesus and depend on what He did for us by removing our sin and in giving us His life we can live free from sin. You have the gospel backwards there.

True repentance is trusting in Jesus death and resurrection and that He took our place.

It's interesting just 2 weeks ago you "liked" all the posts that JGIG and others gave on what the real gospel of grace was and that included the definition of repentance. Obviously you must have read something else that changed your mind about the gospel which looks like it had it's origins in Depleted's post in the "cancerous" thread which was so foul the mods had to close down.

But everyone is allowed to "repent" and change their minds about what they believe too. People can also agree to disagree....

We all agree that the true Christian life when the true gospel is being preached will manifest in outward behavior. But we don't change ourselves first - then come to Jesus.

The fact that we have an exchanged life when we are born-again will show the fruit of already having repented to trust in what Jesus has done - not what we do.

The fallacy that this so-called hyper grace is preaching false repentance is just nonsense. It does conflict with the traditional religious view of "turning from sin" , ( and this can bother our minds ) but to say it is false to trust in the exchanged life when we come to Christ and it is His power that changes our behavior is, IMO - just defending our man-made tradition of the understanding of repentance.

The end result of trusting in what Christ has done for our salvation is the very basis for having repentance ( to change our mind or way of thinking ) to NOT rely on our own power but in Christ alone. The end result is we are living free from sin as the Holy Spirit transforms us. ( 2 Cor 3:17-18 )

Here is the fruit in my life of this repentance to trust in Christ's completed work for me and not on myself. This is not just me - thousands of people have given their testimony of how their lives completely changed from believing in what Christ has done from all over the world. People stuck in a works-based performance based Christianity have been giving testimonies of how their life in Crist has been dramatically changed and they are deeper in love with the Lord then they ever thought was possible.

This is my testimony of what the gospel of the grace of Christ has done in my life:

I have a great passion for Christ!..here is what knowing Him because of the revelation of the gospel of the grace of Christ has done for me.

I was praying one morning and thinking about how the grace of Christ has affected me. I had the scripture come up in my spirit where the Pharisees were arguing about whether a man was born blind or not after Jesus healed him. Of course the Pharisees were trying to discredit the message of Jesus. The man said.." All I know is that I was born blind but now I see."

This is what the gospel of the grace of Christ has done in my life:

I realize that these beliefs in the grace of God....especially the acceptance grace and the total forgiveness that Jesus bought and paid for with His blood....that these can be offensive to our religious beliefs and what we have been taught in church. ( they were initially to me as well )

This gospel of the wondrous grace of Christ has had a beautiful affect on me. I am more in love with Jesus and the Father more then ever....in love with studying His word....praying in the spirit constantly with a heart full of joy!

This gospel has given me a compassion for other people and to reach out in love to them. To give more than I ever have with a heart full of love.

To live a holier life in Him...to be a witness of the life and love of our Lord in me.

If these are the horrible fruit of the grace of Christ in me....I want more!.....give me more grace please my Lord and God!

I am living a much fuller life now, more deeply in love with Jesus and the Father then ever before or ever dreamed was possible and I am just starting.

I am free from the horrible religion of self-effort, having the love of God pour out in me to help others now that I understand the grace that is in Christ then I did when I was doing the self-performance based gospel ( which is not the gospel )

I was blind but now I see. I see Jesus and His finished work for me!

It will always be in eternity "Worthy is the Lamb"..

it will never be.."Worthy is the Lamb......and me..because I did my own D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness to help Jesus out"

It has always been about Jesus and Him alone and it will always remain that way for all eternity.

ladylynn · Jun 12, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

Angela53510 said:

Thanks for that link.I took the time to read it, and now I see how dangerous this hypergrace movement is!

Besides quoting part of a verse out of context (Romans 2:4b), quoting Watchman Nee, a heretic; and using false or twisted definitions for repentance (copied off an internet site with mistakes), the author has completely lost sight of the gospel.

What did Jesus come to save us from?

"But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” Matt 1:20-21

Jesus did not come to the earth, minister to people and die on the cross just so people could "change their minds."

In fact, I am going to do a bit more study on repentance, and post it later. Because it is a total lie, according to Bauer (BAGD) that metanoia or metanoeo means "change of mind." That is never a use for repentance in the Bible. (Although it is translated that way in some early Christian llterature it is never used that way in the Bible.)

And certainly, there is a point concerning repentance meaning "turning about" but, in fact, it is more often "turning away."

The entire narrative of the Bible, from the Fall in Genesis 3, through to the coming of Jesus, is deliverance from sin! And yes, when we turn away from sin, we also turn to Christ. But that link totally misses this, and in fact repeatedly condemns "preachers" who somehow mix grace and law, But if we do not understand law, then what motive do we have to repent? I do believe God gives us the grace through faith to repent. But if we don't repent, and side step repentance, have we really received the grace of God, and are we truly saved?

This website misses the point of grace. It misses the fact that God had grace in the Old Testament, because he is the same God, yesterday, today and forever! And God did establish the law for a reason - to help his people live better - to give them boundaries and rules which the capricious gods of the surrounding cultures never had. (Instead these gods never told people how to live, or what they did wrong - but just keep the sacrifices coming!)

Further, the link in that article to Bible Hub shows Bible hub is in fact slightly wrong, which makes a HUGE difference in understanding the meaning of the word. In fact, in BAGD, the Lexicon that scholars use, the passages where "metanoia"is found in the Bible do not start after "change of mind." In fact, there is not one Bible passage found after that definition. Instead, the references start after the definition:

"repentance, turning about, conversion; as in turning away."

So is Bible Hub at the root of some of this bad theology for slipping up where it put the definitions with respect to the Bible versus early church literature? And, does this mean that some of these early church writers were influenced by gnostics, who were only concerned with the mind, and not the body? (Just asking rhetorically right now!)

Anyway, I will try and do a separate post on this. I want people to understand what an untruth it is that repentance only means "turn to God," when in fact, the historical and Biblical meaning in the Greek is "to turn away from sin."[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your opinions and I understand that the word for "repentance" in Greek does mean "change your mind". So, we actually must repent before we believe which Jesus said "Repent and believe the gospel". God is the one that grants repentance too. ( Acts 11:18; 2 Tom. 2:25 )

Yes..I suppose everyone is a heretic too if they believe differently then what our religious upbringing has taught me.

I also realize that our religious upbringing has hi-jacked the meaning of some words and can be hard to accept what the word actually meant to the listeners back in those days.

Let's look at it through what scripture has to say about repentance ( changing our mind - the way we think ) concerning preaching the gospel. I know we have been taught differently through our religious upbringing and beliefs handed down to us. Let's let God's word speak life to us.

Peter preached the gospel of the grace of Christ. to Cornelius ..no word used for repentence was said

Acts 10:43-44 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

[SUP]44 [/SUP] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.

They were not told to "repent" here.

I love how the Holy Spirit "falls upon " them as soon as they hear about the forgiveness of sins proclaimed to them because of Christ!

Peter got in trouble with the Jewish Christians when he went back because he went into a gentile's house and preached the gospel to them...he says in Acts 11:17,18

Acts 11:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"

[SUP]18 [/SUP] When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

What was there repentance even tho the word "repent" was not used?...they changed their mind toward God and had faith in Jesus and in His complete forgiveness of sins. This is the gospel message.

Notice that it was God that granted them repentance.

New Covenant repentance is not something we conjure up on our own nor is it a work we produce.

2 Tim 2:24-25 says that God may grant them repentance so that they may know the truth. God grants the repentance..not a work we do on our own.

Paul preached the gospel of grace here in the only recorded time in scripture.

Acts 13:38 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

Again ..no telling them to "repent" was voiced here either by Paul...but Paul did tell them .." urged them to continue in the grace of God"

Both of the examples we have of New Covenant preaching about the gospel of grace had NO words of telling people to repent. - and yet..they did repent!

These clearly show that "repentance " was not told to them.

So, repentance does not mean "turn from sin '..it means change your mind ( change your way of thinking and rely on God only for things dealing with your life) and turn to God and believe in Jesus and what He has already done.

There is a change after we come to Christ and His life in us transforms us. This is where we see the "fruit" of repentance. Fruit is not the "root" of repentance.

Fruit of an exchanged life comes after we have "repented " - changed our thinking to rely on Christ's work only for salvation.

We all need to repent every day as we hear the beauty of our Lord proclaimed!

Thank you Grace777 for taking the time to post this here. I wanted to post something but didn't know where to begin. There is so much false information being splattered here it's almost a lost cause at times to try and work for understanding.

But you represented my beliefs on the subjects very well with your post and I appreciate that.

I listened to the video #1 and it is such a mish mash of mis information. I concluded the ones who put that up on the internet just don't care what they say and who they say it about.

ladylynn · Jun 12, 2016

Stephen63 said:

That's the thing, I have done the homework long before this thread came along and can say without a doubt your conclusions here are very wrong. If you want the truth you will have to listen to the whole of what is being said, not bits and pieces of a recording playing the same sentences over and over again.

BenFTW · Jun 12, 2016

Just... no.

royalscot · Jun 12, 2016

crossnote said:

who told you,that you, were a sinner. clearly, this is the difference between spiritual understanding v human teachings.

again acts 2 is all jewish present, acts 10. (gentile) acts 15, never gave the the full law to a gentile.

plain to see, error, but then who am i to point this out. good thing about history, it marks a date of change. and you wonder why paul said.
4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace Galatians 5

Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned---13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. romans 5

royalscot · Jun 12, 2016

13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

God4me · Jun 12, 2016

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

The TRUE WOF don't teach hyper grace, although some people like Joseph Prince thinks they are WOF, just because the used to go to a WOF Church
Hyper grace is a false teaching that deceives many Christians. A Greek Bible scholar says the Hyper grace teachings are the same as the Nicolaitans, which Jesus hated.
WOF teachers teach the Biblical Grace.

God4me · Jun 12, 2016

Karraster said:

Those who have been here a while may remember back when a cc member was always posting about how Bible translations were changing. (Not to be confused with the KJV only guys), but this one was showing how useful comparing translations were. I wish I could remember his name, it would be useful to see his list again, i am working on a list myself..it is very telling.

To me, it is convincing evidence how big this deception is! IOW~what Bibles are these mega preachers using? I know some draw from several to piece together a perfectly tickling/tingling message. Here's one example how the Gospel gets twisted:

NIV_Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

New Living Translation
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.

English Standard Version
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Berean Study Bible
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore there is now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus.

New American Standard Bible
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

King James Bible
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. <--------(see how this part is left out in other translations?)
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus,

Hyper grace teachers also leave out, "Among those who are sanctified", Acts 20: 32.
Also v23 of Col 1: 21--23, They quote v 21--22, but leave out 23.
Also every time the Bible proves them wrong, they say, "That's not for the Church".

royalscot · Jun 12, 2016

4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace Galatians 5 (this was said to, the jewish christians etc)

v

acts 15 etc

God4me · Jun 12, 2016

Angela53510 said:

You obviously don't know the WOF teachings, as their gospel is, Abundant life, health, victory over adverse circumstances and being blessed by faith in the provisions that Jesus has already given us.

That doesn't sound like a false gospel, DOES IT??. For you to say it's a false gospel, you are saying the Bible gives false teachings.

And TRUE genuine WOF teachers never ask for money, Just because some who claim to be connected with the WOF ask for money, It doesn't mean the WOF teachings do it, As "woFAITH", is the key, Which is believing God for financial blessings.
So as they are believing god, Why would they need to ask for money?.

As for healing, It's already been provided by the wounds of Jesus, and it always comes but not always received, And that has nothing to do with God, It's the sick person who has failed to receive healing.
The Anti WOF people, must believe it's God who is withholding healing, as they say it's not the sick persons fault.

WOF is Heresy & Should be Avoided at all Costs!

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