DECEMBER 25?

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Who was well-off? I do not put up decorations or have a tree because they mean nothing to me but I do think about the Lord's birth and the suffering He had to face all of His life. If you do not understand what I am saying, here is a quote to give you a better idea, "Jesus wept."

I observe His advent, and it happens to be on the 25th of December becaue most folks observe it on that day, no other reason. I knew nothing of the Sasturnalia until about `twenty years ago or less. I was not looking for hidden meanings concerning the date.

The greatest and most glorious time for me is His resurrection, the Victory He made for us all.


what I am aware of is how hard christmass can be to those who are poor, not being able to afford to get gifts for your children, not having gifts to show your friends , the pressure of going into debt to try your best to give the gifts you cant afford to, yes I understand.
 
Your understanding of my reason can only be compared to how God knows my heart.

I am humbled to know you feel this way. May God bless you, my friend with all understanding and wisdom.

I am here with mouth opened, cmopletely dumbfounded.

In my opinion, friend, that is human emotion based off of a memory you have.
most of us could share similar stories.

not to diminish your story, but you can feed the poor on any day, and give testimony.
and we should. and not base it on a lie. in my opinion.
 
"Are you looking for some ATT. (attention), cause I can find some chores for you!"

That's what my mom would say to us when it was obvious that WE WERE looking for attention.

We all know this is silly, yet we keep giving bits of candy to the OP, that he joyously pops into his mouth.

Love Jesus, love each other, spread His Good News!
 
"Are you looking for some ATT. (attention), cause I can find some chores for you!"

That's what my mom would say to us when it was obvious that WE WERE looking for attention.

We all know this is silly, yet we keep giving bits of candy to the OP, that he joyously pops into his mouth.

Love Jesus, love each other, spread His Good News!


Yeah but is it Christmas candy lol
 
I celebrate the birth of our Lord and Savior on December 25. I celebrate the resurrection of our Lord and Savior on Easter Sunday. I celebrate my Lord and Savior on all the remaining days of the year. Praise God I will be able to celebrate eternity face to face with Him in the near future.
Amen to this ^^^^

And remember, everyday is Easter. :cool:
 
Something occurreed to me. For those who cannot thing of the 25th of December without thinking of a Saturnalia, you should also stop changing your calendar year on the 31st of December since it is on the solar calendar instituted by the Catholic church.

After all, until then Israel, the Jews, and even Jesus Christ while here used the lunar calendar. I do knows that the mind being trained on the Israeli lunar calendar would focus many on just how close we are to Christ's retrun, though not a soul knows that day or the time. Happy 5777 to any and all who knows what this means.
 
my parents taught me from the beginning that we celebrate Christ's birth each day. they told me from the beginning that santa claus didn't bring my presents. we had a christmas tree one year because 3 yr old melita asked for one cuz she liked the pretty lights. all the other years, we were just too lazy to put one up lol!

if someone doesn't wanna celebrate on december 25th, that's fine. celebrate Him every day!
 
Bah Humbug! This is not in answer or for any one, I just felt like saying BAH HUMBUG!
 
my brother, when I was younger, even for most of my adult life, I also celebrated the December 25 Lie.

there comes a time in the learning process when we have to step away from the lies and tricks of the enemy, in my opinion.

he has commanded us to NOT worship Him in the same ways the pagans do.
with respect, dm

It's funny that you ask this question. This has been on my mind a lot now that the season is approaching. I have come to the decision that while many believe we are honoring the birth of Christ on that day, but for me personally it does not. Christ's arrival was a gift from God but I can best celebrate Jesus Christ our Lord by honoring the Father and doing what He asks of me by demonstrating that shiny decorations and material goods have no value in the Kingdom of the Lord. That's a tall order as it goes against the traditions we have in our family but I love my God above all others and this year plan to respect His wishes. As a business owner, I have yet to resolve this dilemma but it is a sacrifice I realize I must make. His reward is much more valuable than any amount of money I could make on earth.
 
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I don't celebrate christmas. It's an unbiblical man-made holiday.

However, I'll be celebrating and remembering His birth during Sukkot in a few weeks. Our worship team set up the songs for that particular week and we're actually doing 2 "christmas" songs. O Come Emmanuel and Night Divine. We'll see how that goes over!
 
I don't celebrate christmas. It's an unbiblical man-made holiday.

However, I'll be celebrating and remembering His birth during Sukkot in a few weeks. Our worship team set up the songs for that particular week and we're actually doing 2 "christmas" songs. O Come Emmanuel and Night Divine. We'll see how that goes over!

If we are not going to celebrate Christmas then shouldn't we be celebrating the day or week we THINK Jesus was born? Let us not forget that Jesus existed from the beginning of time.
 
"Are you looking for some ATT. (attention), cause I can find some chores for you!"

That's what my mom would say to us when it was obvious that WE WERE looking for attention.

We all know this is silly, yet we keep giving bits of candy to the OP, that he joyously pops into his mouth.

Love Jesus, love each other, spread His Good News!

This is brilliant. Attention seekers are hilarious though. It's like watching someone provide an unsolicited free show at the circus.
 
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If we are not going to celebrate Christmas then shouldn't we be celebrating the day or week we THINK Jesus was born? Let us not forget that Jesus existed from the beginning of time.

No one knows for sure exactly when He was born, so we can't say for sure when it is. But most folks readily admit He wasn't born December 25th. Personally, I don't think it's wise to celebrate Jesus' birth on a day we know wasn't the right day, just for the sake of following man-made traditions.
 
No one knows for sure exactly when He was born, so we can't say for sure when it is. But most folks readily admit He wasn't born December 25th. Personally, I don't think it's wise to celebrate Jesus' birth on a day we know wasn't the right day, just for the sake of following man-made traditions.
Since we don't know the date then there is no need to change it.
 
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Personally, I'd rather celebrate my Savior's birth in the general time He was born instead of a made-up day that the majority of Christians know isn't even in the right month. I suppose that falls under the "traditions of man" category.
 
The problem I have with Christmas is not the day itself but the history connected to this day. The history is older than the birth of Christ and the person connected to this day was so corrupted and perverted that we should actually frown upon his actions. He was the saviour for his people and worshipped by his mother (who had sexual relations with him). After he died and early death, she planted a tree and left him present under the tree waiting for his return every year on his birthday.

This is well documented and for us as Christians we cannot seek God's blessing in a day like this just like Israel couldn't expect any blessings from God when they created a golden calf, named it YHWH and worshipped it at Mount Sinai.

That's the thing: it's NOT well documented. MUCH of what is 'known' about the pagan 'origins' or 'influences' of Christmas comes from Alexander Hislop's The Two Babylons, a book which is rife with wild conjecture and makes 'historical' connections where there are NONE. From UK Apologetics:

In 1858 a Scottish minister called Alexander Hislop published a book called 'The Two Babylons'. The book's basic teaching is that modern Christianity, in its more ritualistic form (as evidenced within Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy), is entirely pagan and can be traced back to the worship of Nimrod and Semiramis and to the very worst of ancient pagan practises. I myself read this book when it was loaned to me by a friend around 1981. The book was certainly fascinating but I recall being disturbed that almost none of Hislop's claims could really be substantiated by any reputable source, although it was certainly 'meat and drink' to the gullible. I did not entirely reject Hislop's thesis but put in on the back burner for a few years with the feeling that Hislop's points were not backed up with conclusive evidence (something which Hislop himself was apparently blind to). Basically, I came to the conclusion that outrageous accusation is not the same thing as carefully compiled and decisive evidence.

Today, of course, the book is soundly rejected because of the flawed and mostly unsubstantiated mish-mash which it is. Note, for instance, what the Wikipedia Encyclopedia says about this book,


The book has been severely criticized for its lack of evidence, and in many cases its contradiction of the existing evidence: for instance, the Roman state religion before Christianity did not worship a central Mother Goddess, and Jupiter was never called "Jupiter-Puer." Likewise, Semiramis lived centuries after Nimrod, and could neither have been his mother, nor married him. Hislop also makes unacceptable linguistic connections and fanciful word plays, e.g. the letters IHS on Catholic Holy Communion wafers are alleged to stand for Egyptian deities Isis, Horus and Seth, but in reality they are an abbreviation for Ihsous, the Latin spelling of Jesus's name in Greek (Ιησους), although popularly, they stand for the Latin Iesus Hominum Salvator meaning Jesus, Savior of Mankind (which also fits the teaching of Transubstantiation, where the wafer and wine are said to become the body and blood of Christ).” (Source: Wikipedia article, Alexander Hislop. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Hislop)

I believed that - as late as 1998 - no self-respecting evangelical would wish to touch this book; imagine my astonishment, then, when one day – circa 1998 - I found this book still for sale in a highly reputable evangelical book shop! Actually, perhaps naively, even now many still cling to every (usually erroneous) word of Hislop.

Originally influenced by this error-strewn book, Ralph Woodrow wrote
Babylon Mystery Religion. But this honest man has since withdrawn this book (an action which has caused him much financial loss) because of his later honest acceptance of Hislop's flaws. See Woodrow's frank and honest admission about his Hislop-inspired book and about the errors of Hislop HERE.

Here is just one brief quote from Woodrow's article to help us to note the flawed reasoning which Hislop so often used and which spread to the cults and sects:

"Some claim that round objects, such as round communion wafers, are symbols of the Sun-god. But they fail to mention that the very manna given by God was round! (Exod. 16:14). Some are ready to condemn all pillars and historical monuments as pagan. But they fail to take into account that the Lord himself appeared as a pillar of fire; and, in front of his temple, there were two large pillars (Exod. 13:21,22; 2 Chron. 3:17).”

I am not going to go further into the errors of Hislop here but would commend Woodrow's article to all, plus the book which he has now written, The Babylon Connection?, to help put right freely-admitted earlier errors (see the earlier link).

How worrying then, that even now in November 2005, when I did a Google search for 'The Two Babylons' and 'Alexander Hislop', the first 15 pages which came up were overwhelmingly in support of Hislop's position (most of these pages were from the websites of the cults and sects but some extreme fundamentalists were also represented). I finally only found about 3 references out of a few hundred which Google produced which understood that Hislop's arguments are now discredited!

Please be aware that in rejecting Hislop's wild claims about Roman Catholicism I am in no way defending error where it is present within Romanist doctrine, indeed, my whole internet ministry is based on exposing theological error (wherever it may be found), but I believe that it is vital for Christian Apologetics and Countercult ministries to ensure that they carefully substantiate all claims.


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I'll post Ralph Woodrow's article following.

-JGIG
 
The problem I have with Christmas is not the day itself but the history connected to this day. The history is older than the birth of Christ and the person connected to this day was so corrupted and perverted that we should actually frown upon his actions. He was the saviour for his people and worshipped by his mother (who had sexual relations with him). After he died and early death, she planted a tree and left him present under the tree waiting for his return every year on his birthday.

This is well documented and for us as Christians we cannot seek God's blessing in a day like this just like Israel couldn't expect any blessings from God when they created a golden calf, named it YHWH and worshipped it at Mount Sinai.


Ralph Woodrow, years ago, wrote a book that paralleled Alexander Hislop's The Two Babylons. It was an easier to read version with essentially the same information. Challenged by readers to do first-hand research regarding the claims in the book, after doing so, Mr. Woodrow took Babylon Mystery Religion off the market and wrote The Babylon Connection? as a result of his first-hand research.

Following is an article Mr. Woodrow wrote regarding his Babylon Mystery Religion book, explaining its removal from the market and its replacement book:

Message from Ralph Woodrow regarding the book BABYLON MYSTERY RELIGION
For a number of years my book BABYLON MYSTERY RELIGION was very popular, enjoyed a wide circulation, and was translated into various languages. To this day, we do not cease to receive orders and inquiries about it. Despite its popularity, several years ago we pulled it out of print and now offer a replacement book THE BABYLON CONNECTION?

Because misinformation about this decision persists on the Internet, and in other ways, the aim of this article is to set the record straight.

According to one rumor, “the Catholics” put so much pressure on me, I had a heart attack and almost died! Consequently, I “recanted” and wrote the other book. There is no truth to this!

Another rumor is that my motives were financial—my desire was to be popular and make more money. To the contrary, BABYLON MYSTERY RELIGION was extremely popular and provided more income to our ministry than all other books and offerings put together! We have faced much financial loss because of the decision to pull the book out of print.

Some letters we have received have been very warm, commending me for honesty and integrity, expressing appreciation for the clarification provided by the replacement book THE BABYLON CONNECTION? But other letters have been mean-spirited—that I am “stupid,” “scum,” “scared of the truth,” a “low down coward,” a “traitor to Christ,” following “a false god,” and am an “undercover Jesuit”! One even said, “I hope you die soon, I want you dead!”

It puzzles me how some can be so fanatical against one set of errors—or what they perceive to be errors—only to develop greater errors: becoming judgmental, hateful, and dishonest.

My original book had some valuable information in it. But it also contained certain teachings that were made popular in a book many years ago, THE TWO BABYLONS, by Alexander Hislop. This book claims that the very religion of ancient Babylon, under the leadership of Nimrod and his wife, was later disguised with Christian-sounding names, becoming the Roman Catholic Church. Thus, two “Babylons"—one ancient and one modern. Proof for this is sought by citing numerous similarities in paganism. The problem with this method is this: in many cases there is no connection.

Let’s suppose that on May 10th a man was stabbed to death in Seattle. There were strong reasons for believing a certain person did it. He had motive. He was physically strong. He owned a large knife. He had a criminal record. He was known to have a violent temper and had threatened the victim in the past. All of these things would point to him as the murderer, except for one thing: on May 10th he was not in Seattle—he was in Florida!

So is it with the claims about pagan origins. What may seem to have a connection, upon further investigation, has no connection at all!

By this method, one could take virtually anything and do the same—even the “golden arches” at McDonald’s! The Encyclopedia Americana (article: “Arch") says the use of arches was known in Babylon as early as 2020 B.C. Since Babylon was called “the golden city” (Isa. 14:4), can there be any doubt about the origin of the golden arches? As silly as this is, this is the type of proof that has been offered over and over about pagan origins.
By this method, atheists have long sought to discredit the Bible and Christianity altogether—not just the Roman Catholic Church.

By this method, one could condemn Protestant and evangelical denominations like the Assemblies of God, Baptist, Church of Christ, Lutheran, Methodist, Nazarene, etc. Basic things like prayer, and kneeling in prayer, would have to be rejected, because pagans knelt and prayed to their gods. Water baptism would have to be rejected, for pagans had numerous rites involving water, etc.

By this method, the BIBLE itself would need to be rejected as pagan. All of the following practices or beliefs mentioned in the Bible, were also known among pagans—raising hands in worship, taking off shoes on holy ground, a holy mountain, a holy place in a temple, offering sacrifices without blemish, a sacred ark, city of refuge, bringing forth water from a rock, laws written on stone, fire appearing on a person’s head, horses of fire, the offering of first fruits, tithes, etc.

By this method, the LORD himself would be pagan. The woman called Mystery Babylon had a cup in her hand; the Lord has a cup in his hand (Psa. 75:8). Pagan kings sat on thrones and wore crowns; the Lord sits on a throne and wears a crown (Rev. 1:4; 14:14). Pagans worshipped the sun; the Lord is the “Sun of righteousness” (Mal. 4:2). Pagan gods were likened to stars; the Lord is called “the bright and morning star” (Rev. 22:16). Pagan gods had temples dedicated to them; the Lord has a temple (Rev. 7:15). Pagan gods were pictured with wings; the Lord is pictured with wings (Psa. 91:4).

Here is a list of the some of the unsubstantiated claims that are made about the religion of ancient Babylon:

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  • [*=1]The Babylonians went to a confessional and confessed sins to priests who wore black clergy garments.
    [*=1]Their king, Nimrod, was born on December 25. Round decorations on Christmas trees and round communion wafers honored him as the Sun-god.
    [*=1]Sun-worshippers went to their temples weekly, on Sunday, to worship the Sun-god.
    [*=1]Nimrod’s wife was Semiramis, who claimed to be the Virgin Queen of Heaven, and was the mother of Tammuz.
    [*=1]Tammuz was killed by a wild boar when he was age 40; so 40 days of Lent were set aside to honor his death.
    [*=1]The Babylonians wept for him on “Good Friday.” They worshipped a cross-the initial letter of his name.

It is amazing how unsubstantiated teachings like these circulate—and are believed. One can go to any library, check any history book about ancient Babylon, none of these things will be found. They are not historically accurate, but are based on an arbitrary piecing together of bits and pieces of mythology.

Hislop, for example, taught that mythological persons like Adonis, Apollo, Bacchus, Cupid, Dagon, Hercules, Janus, Mars, Mithra, Moloch, Orion, Osiris, Pluto, Saturn, Vulcan, Zoraster, and many more, were all Nimrod! He then formed his own “history” of Nimrod! He did the same thing with Nimrod’s wife. So, according to his theory, Nimrod was a big, ugly, deformed black man. His wife, Semiramis—also known as Easter, he says—was a most beautiful white woman with blond hair and blue eyes, a backslider, inventor of soprano singing, the originator of priestly celibacy, the first to whom the unbloody mass was offered! This is not factual history—it is more in the category of tabloid sensationalism.

Some claim that round objects, such as round communion wafers, are symbols of the Sun-god. But they fail to mention that the very manna given by God was round! (Exod. 16:14). Some are ready to condemn all pillars and historical monuments as pagan. But they fail to take into account that the Lord himself appeared as a pillar of fire; and, in front of his temple, there were two large pillars (Exod. 13:21,22; 2 Chron. 3:17).

Because Babylon had a tower (Gen. 11:4), some suppose this must be why there are church buildings with towers or steeples: they are copying Babylon! A newspaper reporter in Columbus, Ohio, wrote to me about this. In that city, and numerous other places, this claim has been made. Let me say it quite clearly: No church ever included a steeple or tower on their house of worship to copy the tower of Babel! Why discredit thousands of born-again Christians by promoting ideas that have no connection? If a tower in itself is pagan, God would be pagan, for David described him as “my high tower” (2 Sam. 22:3; cf. Prov. 18:10).

No Christian who puts a bumper sticker with a fish symbol on the back of his car has ever done so to honor the fish-god Dagon. No congregation has ever put a cross on a church building for the purpose of honoring Tammuz. No Christian has ever gone to an Easter sunrise service to worship Baal. No Christian has ever worshipped a Christmas tree as an idol. Claims that imply “all these things started in Babylon,” are not only divisive and fruitless, they are untrue.

The concern about not wanting anything pagan in our lives can be likened to a ship crossing a vast ocean. This concern has taken us in the right direction, but as we come to a better understanding as to what is actually pagan and what is not, a correction of the course is necessary in our journey. This is not a going back, but a correction of the course as we follow “the shining light, that shines more and more unto the perfect day” (Prov. 4:18).
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I've read both The Two Babylons and Babylon Mystery Religion with my computer open and did searches myself to research the claims. It was VERY enlightening!

-JGIG