Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

[PlainWord]

Good point - this shows the preterist understanding very early on after 70 AD.

Yes. Ignatius is perhaps the earliest, non-Biblical Christian writer, born in 35 AD. I've read all of his writings and cannot find any reference to him looking for and/or waiting for Christ to return. Isn't that odd considering Paul, Peter, John and other disciples quoting Jesus spoke of this often?

Not sure if anyone posted about this because I came to the thread late and didn't read everything. It might be helpful to discuss who Christ (and by inference, God) was angry with. Who was/will be their wrath direct at? Were they angry with first century apostate Jews and Romans or are they angry at the world today (and for that matter, the world of the past 2,000 years)?

We know in Mt 3, John the Baptist made reference to the Wrath when he saw the religious leaders of the day heading towards him. Jesus also made it pretty clear of His unhappiness with them on multiple occasions telling them nothing could save them from Hell. Jesus called His generation, "faithless and perverse." Josephus in writing about his days and people makes many references to just how wicked these people were and that Rome was sent by God to punish them. He added, "as foretold by the prophets."

We've had some wicked times since, but God has not wiped out the earth as of yet, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc come to mind just from our century.

 

[abcdef]

I'm not being harsh AB - you ignore the plain meanings of scripture - as I said to soandso I can't describe every bit of minutae in the scripture when the scripture itself does not do so.

You keep harping on about the "exact" timing of the resurrection - both PL and I stated it was in the time frame of the compassing of armies of Jerusalem in the 1st century - for you this description and by the way it's Jesus' description not ours is not good enough.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

If this is not good enough for you then there is nothing more to be said that will make you happy.

I accept what is written - I don't make up scenarios to make scripture fit my theology.

When Paul stated that the resurrection was about to be I don't remove it from its first century context because it does not fit in with preconceived ideas about an exact time or manner - you do and it's a blatant ignoring of the inspired text.

Acts 24:15 having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous.

The only way to place this 2000 years past Paul's lifetime is to be dishonest with the text as it stands in a literal translation of the text.

Until this dishonesty is dealt with by yourself and other futurists you are always going to promote error and there is no way to have an honest discussion with dishonesty.

What it amounts to is lack of faith in the scripture and a more than warranted faith in your own reasoning based on preconception.

Brother Locutus,

What ever you want to say, about the resurrection time line, it must agree with Paul's description of the resurrections in 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24.

It says there, #1 Jesus, and #2 those at his coming, then it is the end.

But you still have too many resurrections,

#1, Jesus.

#2, 70 ad.

#3, When are the unsaved judged? Those who have died since 70 ad?

And death cannot be destroyed yet, because people are still dying the 2nd death.

------

The apostles knew that Jerusalem would be destroyed, and that there would be a time after that, but how long would the time be?

Yes, Jerusalem was to be destroyed, Ok, but then what? Did the resurrection take place then?

No, there is no witnesses, no real evidence that a resurrection took place.

There were many witnesses after Jesus resurrected, but none for a 70ad one.

It does say in Rev 11:11-12, that people see them v 11, and v 12, their enemies beheld them, but no one ever gives any evidence that it ever happened. You would think, that of everything that was seen and recorded, that it would have been front page news.

They thought it would happen soon, and maybe live to see it, but they didn't except for John.

----

Why didn't they know? Because the scroll, in Rev chs 4-11, could not be opened until the people were scattered (Dan. 12).

The scroll, tells the story of Israel, natural branches, after 70 ad, the 7 trumpets.

The information supplied by the trumpets could not be revealed until after Jerusalem had been destroyed.

(1-7 seals, rejection of the gospel by Israel thru 70 ad.,... The 7 trumpets, the time after 70 ad.)

---

The apostles expected the fall of 70 ad, to be followed directly by the resurrection, but it was not to be, it has still got to happen.

---

 

[abcdef]

Nope.

City didn't go poof in 37 AD - read Daniel again:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city....

Sorry, but I can't get the numbers to add up the way you do.

Jesus comes at the beginning of the 69th wk., v 25.

He is cut off in the middle of the week.

The covenant that Jesus came and confirmed with Israel was ended in 37 ad, when Israel rejected the gospel, was broken off, and the gentiles entered the kingdom.

 

[abcdef]

I agree. This is no end of Planet Earth taught. An end to Israel is taught and indeed happened in 70 AD. In many places the "earth" is referring to Israel. There are other passages which seem to indicate our planet, "Earth" going on forever, or at least for a very long time.

Ecc 1:4: One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever.

Psm 78:69: And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever.

Psm 104:5: You who laid the foundations of the earth, So that it should not be moved forever...

The word, "forever" can sometimes denote a very long period of time.

There you go, you let the truth slip out.

Will you now accept your own words?

AB is fond of showing us little things that suggest a continuation of time after 70AD which only bolsters our position. Life does continue on this planet. But we have no direct prophesy of any specific event that is in the future on this planet. At least I haven't found one.

Rev 19:20, The beast and his followers, are thrown into the lake of fire.

The beast is the iron legs Rome.

 

[abcdef]

AB,



On or about Aug 30, 70 AD. Jesus says 4 times in the Book of John, they He will, "raise (them) up on 'the last day.'" He was referring to the last day of Israel and the Mosaic Age.

Was He? Jn 6:54, still valid for us today? If it is, then the last day has not happened yet, as we are promised to be resurrected on that day.

Nice date. Thanks.

Wrong ascension. Paul was citing Psm 68:18 in that passage. If you look at Psm 68 and pick up the context you see this:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]The chariots of God are twenty thousand, Even thousands of thousands; The Lord is among them as in Sinai, in the Holy Place. [SUP]18 [/SUP]You have ascended on high, You have led captivity captive; You have received gifts among men, Even from the rebellious, That the Lord God might dwell there.[SUP]19 [/SUP]Blessed be the Lord, Who daily loads us with benefits, The God of our salvation! Selah [SUP]20 [/SUP]Our God is the God of salvation; And to GOD the Lord belong escapes from death.

Eph 4:10, "He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens,...",

Jesus only descended into the lower parts of the earth once, when He died, then ascended.

He brought those captive in sin with Him through His blood.

There were no chariots recorded upon Christ's first ascension following His resurrection. However, Josephus records chariots in the sky above Jerusalem and surrounding the city during the siege.

The chariots are those preaching the gospel of the kingdom.

Also see 2 kings 6:17.

As far as people seeing things in clouds, I saw a monkey once.

Additionally, notice the use of "salvation?" When does salvation come? According to the writer of Hebrews, it's upon His second appearance.

[SUP]28 [/SUP]so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

He didn't appear at the dest. He was revealed as God.

His appearing has yet to come.

We also have this passage from Jude:

“Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, [SUP]15 [/SUP]to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds...

Ok, where were the ten thousands of His saints at the dest of Jeru?

Judgment was executed in 70 AD, not during the first advent.

The judgment started when Israel rejected the gospel kingdom.

It didn't end in 70 ad, that was only the end of the beginning.

Study the end of 1 Cor 15 carefully. What change is taking place, to whom and when?

Please be more specific, I don't have time to guess what you are implying.

Since 70 AD ish. Each in our own order. We have countless stories from those who went through near death experiences, seeing their loved ones, and Jesus in Heaven. They did not get a glimpse of Hades.

Yes, I saw a monkey once.

These may be true, or may not be, maybe just illusions, there is no absolute proof of these things.

Nor can there ever be proof, except when Jesus appears, because that is when faith will end.

 

[abcdef]

Brother AB,

When did/does Jesus bruise the head of the serpent? It was at the Cross. This was the defeat of Satan. This is why Satan tried so hard to kill Baby Jesus.

It was the death blow, but not the end of sin and Satan.

It (Planet Earth) goes on for a very long time with no end in sight, or taught. Earth (Israel) ended in 70 AD and now it's back after a brief 1,900 year hiatus.

Interesting. Maybe after the times of the gentiles is ended?

Maybe completing/ending the statue of Dan 2?

For the wicked, yes. But remember, we are not "of this earth." We will not face the second death; only the wicked do.

What is your basis for this statement?

The kingdom cannot be delivered up to the Father until it is complete, since souls are still being added, it cannot be complete yet.

 

[MarcR]

Nothing strange about it sosandso - all the letters in the NT give signs of unmistakable evidence of imminence.

James 5:9 (NASB) Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door.

Seems James and Paul present the same message.

What is strange is that these things don't grab any attention.

It's the beauty of being outside the camps you see I'm not a futurist,or prterit,nor disp. ect.ect. but I am a good student. Now I notice that most are convinced they are the ones who are correct but in the end actually only end up providing their gut instinct as to things.

There is nothing in any of the internet forms that are being debated that were not the very same debates from the 1800's or the ad3-400's it all boils down to the pre/future thing. After so many years went by and the protestant movement(?) began the very same old issues sprang right back up and here we go again,lol.

I don't see you as any type enemy to me. I don't agree with every thing you say,lol. When I was younger I was quite vocal about my opinions on these same matters but as I got older I saw that it was really just my own opinion the same as the rest in theirs. Now I would really hate to "play teacher",and lead anyone astray in something that I thought was correct and was not hence you rarely ever see me state my position in certain areas of eschatology. That is I think it good not to injure any of you with my tongues pride.

As for salvation because you believe Jesus came and died for us and he is our saviour I suppose what we might differ on as to the fine details in eschatology and the same as the disciples not understanding Jesus would be slain and in the grave then resurrected. Jesus still loved them even though they did not know those fine details. And in the same when the Thessalonians were confused about if the return and resurrection had already come and if they missed it they were not cast away but instead handled with love. Remember Peter was told "nothing doubting" and the 12 and the elders having to reason through what was going on in Acts15,,,eschatology stumps us all at times and I notice we are still loved by Jesus our Lord.

Any way though it is interesting to talk to you,I rather well enjoy it in that even though you hold to full preterism you will be honest and say that their are some things you cant explain. lol,outside the camps at first it was cold and lonely,and then it became comfortable like Joshua 5:14,,,

There is no honest way to deny that the authors of all the epistles expected an imminent return of Jesus.

Jesus own words to the Church were to live in imminent expectation of His return.

Neither is there any honest way to deny that there was a first century fulfillment that culminated in 70 A.D.

The issue, for those of us you would call futurists, is that IMO and the opinion of many; the first century fulfillment did NOT satisfy ALL the prophetic expectations.

This leads many of us, myself included, to expect another fulfillment in our time.

 

[shrume]

There is no honest way to deny that the authors of all the epistles expected an imminent return of Jesus.

Jesus own words to the Church were to live in imminent expectation of His return.

Neither is there any honest way to deny that there was a first century fulfillment that culminated in 70 A.D.

I think there is. I think it’s a real stretch to say that Matt 24 was fulfilled in 70 AD.

The elephant in the room is that there is no honest way to conclude that Jesus returned in 70 AD.

The issue, for those of us you would call futurists, is that IMO and the opinion of many; the first century fulfillment did NOT satisfy ALL the prophetic expectations.

It didn’t even come close. At all.

This leads many of us, myself included, to expect another fulfillment in our time.

Agreed, except it will be the first fulfillment.

 

[PlainWord]

Merry Christmas Everyone!!

 

[abcdef]

I think there is. I think it’s a real stretch to say that Matt 24 was fulfilled in 70 AD.

Brother shrume,

Let's try to logic this out.

I think that you would agree, that Matt 24, Mk 13, Lk 21, parts of Lk 17, are all parallel passages.

There are books and places where the passages are combined, that is the best way to study them.

But let's just take the passage from Lk 21:20-24.

For context, the verses leading up to this passage Lk 21:5-19, are the 2 questions, and then the description of the persecution of the apostles.

V 20, The surrounding of Jerusalem, and the impending destruction becomes plain.

V 21, People in Judea flee to the mountains. Not necessarily Jerusalem at this point, because it says when you see Jerusalem surrounded, so it is already too late for them.

V 22, These are the days of vengeance. For what? Rejecting the gospel kingdom? Yes. This has to happen, that is the dest of Jeru, because the prophecies about it must be fulfilled.

V 23, Hard times are ahead.

V 24, They will fall by the sword, and be taken away captive. They don't use guns anymore, and they don't take slaves anymore. So how can this be future?

The idea that in this modern age, that this will happen, swords, is not very likely. People think that this hasn't happened, but it can only have happened in 70 ad ish.

Some think that Israel will run and escape to the desert, just like 70 ad, but not this time, there is nowhere to go, they are surrounded right now.

The elephant in the room is that there is no honest way to conclude that Jesus returned in 70 AD.

Jerusalem was destroyed wasn't it? Who destroyed it, the Romans? OK, but how could Rome destroy Jerusalem, if God was protecting it?

God brought many armies against Jerusalem, to get the people to repent. Ezek 38:4 is an example.
The idea is just like the great flood. When God withdrew His blessings on the earth (element), the dark waters flooded in. When God returned blessings to the earth, the dark waters withdrew.

God withdrew His protection over Israel when the natural branches rejected the gospel kingdom, and the darkness of the Roman war clouds, flood waters, came rolling in.

Jesus came at the destruction, but it wasn't a resurrection coming, that is where much confusion is. Decide in the Bible where it is talking about His coming to destroy Jerusalem, and where it is talking about the resurrection coming.

It didn’t even come close. At all.

Well so far it looks like 70 ad, but let's keep going.

V 25, Signs in the sun, etc.. See Acts 2:16-21, 20. The passage describes the day of the Lord against the Jerusalem of 70 ad, not the day of the Lord against the world, that is yet to come. Peter plainly states in v 16, this is it.

Distress, perplexity, sea of the gentiles roaring, why?

The gentile nations knew of the God of Israel and His power. It was known since the exodus from Egypt and the events of the centuries that followed. But if God was real, why would He allow His people to be destroyed, Jerusalem to be destroyed? Why, they were perplexed. Distress, maybe there is no God after all. The waters swallowing up Jerusalem and the people of Israel, flooding out of the mouth of the Roman dragon beast Rev 12:15-16.

V 26, Powers of heaven shaken, changed. This certainly happened when Jesus died, and the veil was torn. The day of Pentecost the kingdom came, salvation came, redemption from sin came.

V 27, Israel will know that Jesus is the Son of God, when He brings Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem like He said.

V 28-31, The first thing mentioned in this passage is false Christs v 8, and hearing of wars v 9. So redemption for sin happens on the day of Pentecost, when these things begin. They didn't begin when Jerusalem was surrounded. They begin long before that.

V 32, The apostle John is believed to have lived long enough to see these events unfold, and the beginning of the times of the trampling gentiles.

V 33 Heaven and earth did pass away at the death of Jesus, the new covenant on Pentecost, and the dest of Jerusalem.

But it is shown in the symbolism of the OT scriptures.

Agreed, except it will be the first fulfillment.

Look at this, in order for pretrib to have events take place like they expect,

They must recreate exactly the conditions that took place in 70 ad ish.

That would be a temple, sacrifices, Israel's rejection of the gospel, an Antichrist different than Caesar (iron legs, 4th beast, 7heads/10 horns), and another times of the gentiles.

The situation would have to be exactly like the events of 70 ad.

But the events already happened.

You want to prove the abomination took place in the 70 ad temple? See if the image of Caesar was put in the temple.

Because that is exactly, what has to happen for pretrib to be true. The image of the Roman 4th beast iron dragon, must be placed in a rebuilt temple just like 70 ad.

=========

 

[shrume]

Brother shrume,

...................................

I'm sorry, a-f. I appreciate your effort, but I completely disagree with almost everything you claim.

I will never be a Preterist, or partial Preterist, and I am confident that one day, when the things prophesied in Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 begin to come to pass, you will cease being one as well.

 

[abcdef]

I'm sorry, a-f. I appreciate your effort, but I completely disagree with almost everything you claim.

I will never be a Preterist, or partial Preterist, and I am confident that one day, when the things prophesied in Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 begin to come to pass, you will cease being one as well.

Brother shrume,

When they start using swords again instead of guns and bombs , then it may be possible.

Why ignore the truth? Why? To be with the majority? The RCC is the majority, are they right?

----

No, when Jerusalem falls this time, to Iran and it's allies, you will see that this cannot be true.

---

Now I challenge you.

Plainly explain the same verses that I just explained. Lk 21:5-33, or even just Lk 21:20-24.

Can you take the challenge? or will you say, something else? Like, I'm going to believe what I want in spite of knowing the truth. (swords)

 

[shrume]

Brother shrume,

When they start using swords again instead of guns and bombs , then it may be possible.

When it happens, it won't be with swords. Swords is a metaphor for instruments of war.

Why ignore the truth? Why?

Preterism is not the truth.

To be with the majority?

There are several things I believe that are not in alignment with the majority.

But for the record, neither majority nor minority matter. The truth is what matters.

The RCC is the majority, are they right?

There are MANY things they believe that I am convinced are wrong.

No, when Jerusalem falls this time, to Iran and it's allies, you will see that this cannot be true.

...not sure of your point.

Now I challenge you.

Plainly explain the same verses that I just explained. Lk 21:5-33, or even just Lk 21:20-24.

Can you take the challenge?

Luke 21:
5) And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

6) As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7) And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

8) And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

9) But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

10) Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

11) And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

12) But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

13) And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

14) Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

15) For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

16) And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

18) But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

19) In your patience possess ye your souls.

20) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

29) And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30) When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31) So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33) Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

You might argue that some of the things presented in Luke 21:5-33 came to pass in 70 AD, but everything in red did not. And the things that you believe came to pass in 70 AD will happen for sure in the end times, along with the things in red.

or will you say, something else? Like, I'm going to believe what I want in spite of knowing the truth. (swords)

Preterism is not the truth, and swords is a metaphor for instruments or war.

 

[abcdef]

When it happens, it won't be with swords. Swords is a metaphor for instruments of war.

Brother shrume, thanks for a great reply,

How about the being taken away as slaves into all nations? When Jerusalem falls this time there won't be any slaves taken.

You say that the Jerusalem compassed is literal, Judea fleeing is literal, the vengeance is literal, the woman with child is literal, the captivity is literal, the trampling is literal,

But the swords are symbolic. That doesn't hold to the literal context of the verses.

Preterism is not the truth.

I'm an independent, I do not follow any group or denomination.

I think that preterists have some things right, and that some pretrib is right. But I do not hold to either one, and do not endorse either one.

Many things were fulfilled by 70 ad, some were not, it didn't end in 70 ad.

There are several things I believe that are not in alignment with the majority.

But for the record, neither majority nor minority matter. The truth is what matters.

Agree

There are MANY things they believe that I am convinced are wrong.

Me too. But some things that the RCC teaches are correct. We must study and think before we decide.

...not sure of your point.

The point is that Jerusalem will fall soon, then the 7th trumpet.

For there to be a second time of the gentiles, Jerusalem must fall again, and the people must flee again.

Then they must dwell in the gentile nations again, and then when the ToG's is ended, they must return to restore Jerusalem again, just like they did in 1967.

Luke 21:
5) And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

6) As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Not one stone of the temple will be left upon another. That means in pretrib, that the temple that they build for the Antichrist must be torn down as soon as it is finished, Yes? Or when?

So they have to build another temple, so the Antichrist can come and stand in it, then it is torn down after the first 3 1/2 times, so Israel must flee again.

7) And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

8) And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

There have been many false Christ's throughout history. Many come, not one.

9) But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

10) Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

11) And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

The great signs from heaven were on Pentecost, a fulfillment of Joel Acts 2:16.

There have been many earthquakes, etc. Many in the time between 33 ad and 70 ad.

We are just aware of them world wide, unlike before when it took months for news to arrive.

12) But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

13) And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

14) Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

15) For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

16) And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

18) But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

19) In your patience possess ye your souls.

This was spoken directly to the 4 apostles who were present, applies to them, and cannot be fulfilled at any later date because they are dead now. (This generation shall not pass etc.)

20) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

The days of vengeance are the dest of Jerusalem and the 1900 years that followed. Commonly known as, the time of Jacob's trouble, the great trib, the times of the gentiles.

This already happened, they ended in 1967.

23) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Which people? "This people", Israel of Jesus' time.

24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The times of the gentiles (ToG's) began when Israel was forced from Jerusalem and the gentiles ruled over the city.

It lasted from 70 ad until 1967 when Israel was restored to military control over Jerusalem.

There won't be a second ToG's.

25) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

What are the signs in the sun and moon, etc.? (Acts 2:16-21, Peter said, this is it, the signs on Pentecost) How do we know what to look for? Sunspots?

Which sea is it that roars? the Red Sea, the Sea of Galilee, the Mediterranean?

You say that the swords are symbolic of weapons of war, but now you turn literal and expect material results.

26) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

The powers were shaken when Jesus died, and the kingdom came, what powers will shake now?

If when the powers are shaken in heaven, how will we know?

When Jerusalem was falling Israel knew Jesus was the Son of God.

27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Who sees Him? Those who pierced Him?

Stephen saw Jesus sitting on the right hand of God, who else saw Jesus on the right hand of God, at that time when Stephen saw Him?

We believe Stephen saw Him, but evidently no one else did at that time. Stephen saw Jesus as he was dying, so maybe the people of Israel were seeing Jesus just before their deaths in Jerusalem.

28) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Redemption was at the cross and Pentecost. We are redeemed when we receive Jesus.

We will not be redeemed at the rapt/resur, because we are already redeemed when we accept Jesus.

29) And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30) When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31) So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33) Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

You might argue that some of the things presented in Luke 21:5-33 came to pass in 70 AD, but everything in red did not. And the things that you believe came to pass in 70 AD will happen for sure in the end times, along with the things in red.

Preterism is not the truth, and swords is a metaphor for instruments or war.

The apostles have passed away, so there can be no future fulfillment of the things that Jesus said that they must endure.

==========

Now here is a problem.

How many scriptures are there, that talk about the dest of Jerusalem in 70 ad?

None? One? Someone told me one once, I don't believe that, I believe that there are many.

Pretrib treats the 70 ad dest, as if it didn't exist at all, not important, tiny detail, but it was everything to the apostles, and they wrote about it.

According to pretrib there is almost no mention of it at all, once they attribute all the verses to future events.

Verses cannot be found that apply to the 70 ad dest at all, maybe 1 or 2, under pretrib.

Things didn't end in 70 ad, but much did.

 

[MarcR]

I think there is. I think it’s a real stretch to say that Matt 24 was fulfilled in 70 AD.

The elephant in the room is that there is no honest way to conclude that Jesus returned in 70 AD.


It didn’t even come close. At all.


Agreed, except it will be the first fulfillment.

Mat 24 begins with a prediction of the fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple.

The expulsion of the Jews from the Holy Land in 71-72 AD can be seen as a partial fulfillment of much of Mat 24.

I agree that it is hard to make a case for Jesus having returned in 70A.D. and even harder to make a case for a millenniel reign of Jesus having occurred. I don't think even the Preterists attempt that.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I don't think even the Preterists attempt that.

Scrooge would say "Preterism? Bah! Humbug!" and would be be right on the mark.

"the Fall of Jerusalem was, in the fullest sense, the Second Advent of the Son of Man which was primarily contemplated by the earliest voices of prophecy" - F.W. Farrar,

http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/s/second-coming-of-jesus.html

 

[tanakh]

this is again where its important to rightly divide the word of truth or u will be mixed up in all kinds of false doctrines.

replacement theology is the problem here.

why would the church thats already purified have to go thru the purification of the time of Jacob's trouble? what about the judgment seat of Christ? when is that at? post-tribbers often just skip thru that event. its the u turn rapture.

Christ comes with his saints, (see 1 Thess 4:13-14) who are now in heaven. At the rapture they receive their immortal bodies along with those who are alive on earth at the time. But according to you instead of escorting Christ as he descends to the Earth where he appears at the Mount of Olives they are then all taken back to heaven where they stay for seven years. Then they all come back with Christ for the ''real second coming''. If anyone believes in U Turns its you and all those who believe the above. You state that we should rightly divide the word of truth. My question is when are you going to start practicing what you preach?

 

[iamsoandso]

There is no honest way to deny that the authors of all the epistles expected an imminent return of Jesus.

Jesus own words to the Church were to live in imminent expectation of His return.

Neither is there any honest way to deny that there was a first century fulfillment that culminated in 70 A.D.

The issue, for those of us you would call futurists, is that IMO and the opinion of many; the first century fulfillment did NOT satisfy ALL the prophetic expectations.

This leads many of us, myself included, to expect another fulfillment in our time.

I apologize that I did not see your post until now,and hope you are well,Instead I was playing with a shrimp net my neighbour gave me in spite of it being a forgotten portion of America.

I also think some things do not so well line up with this, but then others yes. I think that today it is almost instinct for each and every thread to plunged itself into the "it's all verses no it's not" debate as to fulfilment rather than none to explore the question of "was the Church of Christ judged in ad70?"...

That is as we know Gods judgement upon the earth then before the flood was exercised in the days of Noah as well as the times of the fullness of measure of the Amorites were not yet at it's full measure in Genesis 15:14,,, but they did come as time continued onward into time from then and in fact there is an time as we know where they were at their full measure and then came to their end.

Any how though,,,when the same judgement of Israel came to it's fullness in ad70,,,"is this also when those whom we refer to as Christian also at their full measure of God's judgement?"... I think that's the question we all seem to miss.

 

[iamsoandso]

ok I want to put the word "are" where it goes but 5 minutes and 2 seconds later,well I cannot.

 

[abcdef]

I apologize that I did not see your post until now,and hope you are well,Instead I was playing with a shrimp net my neighbour gave me in spite of it being a forgotten portion of America.

I also think some things do not so well line up with this, but then others yes. I think that today it is almost instinct for each and every thread to plunged itself into the "it's all verses no it's not" debate as to fulfilment rather than none to explore the question of "was the Church of Christ judged in ad70?"...

That is as we know Gods judgement upon the earth then before the flood was exercised in the days of Noah as well as the times of the fullness of measure of the Amorites were not yet at it's full measure in Genesis 15:14,,, but they did come as time continued onward into time from then and in fact there is an time as we know where they were at their full measure and then came to their end.

Any how though,,,when the same judgement of Israel came to it's fullness in ad70,,,"is this also when those whom we refer to as Christian also at their full measure of God's judgement?"... I think that's the question we all seem to miss.

Brother iamsoandso,

To understand this point, we must look at the history of Israel, the kingdom, and the Roman dragon.

The iron legs/toes Roman 4th beast dragon beast with 7 heads and 10 horns, I'll just call Him Rome or the beast for now, ha ha, dominates Israel for the span of the legs and toes (Daniel 2).

During that time, the kingdom comes on Pentecost. This was probably just after the beginning of the iron, before the legs split. (The kingdom causes the statue to break into pieces, divisions.)

The statue shows that the Roman beast rules over Israel even after the time that the kingdom begins.

The statue begins in Babylon and ends when Israel is restored to control over Jerusalem again, and the gentile rule over Israel is ended.

So even though the kingdom came on Pentecost, the Roman beast still had power over Israel. So both those in the Pentecost kingdom and those who rejected the gospel kingdom suffered at the hands of Rome. This is shown in Rev 12:17, where the woman flees to the gentile wilderness and the Roman dragon attacks her children, gentile Christians.

During this time, the natural branches suffered the withdrawing (breaking off) of God's blessings and the kingdom branches (wild and natural) did not.

During this time the broken branches who practiced the old Law, were tormented by Rome for centuries, "Christians" were also, but after a time their persecution was eased, in many ways.

----

So what about the time of "wrath"? The time of Israel's trouble? What are the things shown by the prophecies?

The symbols show the relationship between the broken branches and God.

At the same time, although they both suffer at the hands of Rome, the members of the kingdom rejoice in eternal salvation through the gift of the Holy Spirit. They plant, water, and bring souls into the kingdom.

There is a war between the gospel kingdom and the dragon, but all through this time, the kingdom scores victory after victory each time a soul become part of the kingdom. Each time someone comes to Jesus there is rejoicing, even in times of darkest evil, there is light for the kingdom. The standing statue is being devoured by the kingdom.

---

So what we see, is the Pentecost gospel kingdom in the time of iron, suffering along with the broken branches, but in an entirely relationship with Jesus.