Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

[NayborBear]

I think the key to understanding election is the immutability of God. As Luther said, if God's love and justice are immutable, so are His other attributes, including knowledge and will

God neither looked down the corridors of time to see who believes, (because His knowledge is immutable and He does not learn) nor did He at a certain point in time "decide" to choose us, because His Will is immutable and does not change, We were chosen in eternity, not in time

But I also believe that the reason a person is not saved is because of their own choice, not God's. It is not Gods will that any perish.

So from our perspective, in time, man must choose. But in eternal perspective, God chose before time existed

I know there is something missing in what I just wrote, so feel free anyone to add the missing piece that ties this together, (,unless it is a mystery hidden with God)

The "mystery", doesn't lie "hidden in God." Rather "hidden" amongst "men!" Causing even the elect, in their "seeking out", and striving in the exposing those in the midst of believers, who will cry out in that day, "Lord!"...."Lord!!" Cuz, I guarantee ya, 100% of believers will never see themselves as "the many who shall!"

The "Loving Kindness" of God towards His children ENDURES FOREVER! In His willing that NONE should perish, but come UNTO repentance!
Tis been my experience, in striving to deepen "Spiritual" roots, the using of the K.I.S.S. "method" (keeping it simple, Spiritual man), is a "discipline" that must be learned, and then adhered to. As it "seems", at least concerning "my" so-journeying, that "certain vanity's, pride, and arrogance", (i.e. "backdoor boastings") creep in unawares, in one's "communicating/teaching", the "passing on", or transferring of, whether orally, or written, regarding the "gleening" of knowledge concerning the God and Father of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, as well, as Jesus Christ of Nazareth Himself! The ONLY WAY unto the God and Father!

I don't know what others "see", when hearing or reading, teachers, or preachers, or authors, or musicians, or just about a "myriad" of "ministries" within the modern churches today, that speak, or write, or sing, etc., that use (for lack of a better way of explaining) "50 cent words!" (I'll just leave that, right there )

(what timing, eh? Seems I had an unexpected/unanticipated "visitor." took me out for breakfast, of which I ended up paying for it . derailing the "train of thought", I was on. Which, I have found so oft happens when "contending for the the faith", on higher Spiritual levels, overcoming, being crucified with Christ, which "kills" the "old man" in every believer.)
(but anyways, where was I).................................................(derailed....for now )

 

[Jimbone]

The "mystery", doesn't lie "hidden in God." Rather "hidden" amongst "men!" Causing even the elect, in their "seeking out", and striving in the exposing those in the midst of believers, who will cry out in that day, "Lord!"...."Lord!!" Cuz, I guarantee ya, 100% of believers will never see themselves as "the many who shall!"

The "Loving Kindness" of God towards His children ENDURES FOREVER! In His willing that NONE should perish, but come UNTO repentance!
Tis been my experience, in striving to deepen "Spiritual" roots, the using of the K.I.S.S. "method" (keeping it simple, Spiritual man), is a "discipline" that must be learned, and then adhered to. As it "seems", at least concerning "my" so-journeying, that "certain vanity's, pride, and arrogance", (i.e. "backdoor boastings") creep in unawares, in one's "communicating/teaching", the "passing on", or transferring of, whether orally, or written, regarding the "gleening" of knowledge concerning the God and Father of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, as well, as Jesus Christ of Nazareth Himself! The ONLY WAY unto the God and Father!

I don't know what others "see", when hearing or reading, teachers, or preachers, or authors, or musicians, or just about a "myriad" of "ministries" within the modern churches today, that speak, or write, or sing, etc., that use (for lack of a better way of explaining) "50 cent words!" (I'll just leave that, right there )

(what timing, eh? Seems I had an unexpected/unanticipated "visitor." took me out for breakfast, of which I ended up paying for it . derailing the "train of thought", I was on. Which, I have found so oft happens when "contending for the the faith", on higher Spiritual levels, overcoming, being crucified with Christ, which "kills" the "old man" in every believer.)
(but anyways, where was I).................................................(derailed....for now )

With all due respect, and especially because I don't at all disagree with what you're saying here, I have to notice this whole thing you're talking about is but a tiny piece in the whole. Our spiritual walk in the Spirit is for us, and is everything, to us, but Jesus finished Gods plan in victory and redeemed the world, it's all going under Him and His kingdom will know no end.

Isaiah 9:7
Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish and sustain it with justice and righteousness from that time and forevermore.

If I'm not mistaken Jesus has ascended and sat down on His throne, right?

Before I get to far I do not think you'd disagree with a thing I've said, so I'm not intending this comment as a "rebuke", or teaching at all, I just think that no matter how detailed we get in accurately describing our walk with Him after being reborn of the Spirit, it only ever plays a tiny part in the glory of His whole plan. We should be much more focused on Him and His kingdom than on "me". And one last time because I really want to be clear I am not speaking about you, to be honest I'll just say I'm talking about myself, ironically. I'm just really starting to see how often we are talking about, concerned about, focused on, and arguing over very personal and self focused matters of faith. I'm just thinking it's so very much about His glory and His plan, and so very little to do with me (even though this in no way means to minimize or belittle His indescribable love and purpose for each and every one of us) Easy to sound too cold making this point, and that's the last way I want to come across. I'm also just thinking aloud to see what others might think. Thanks and have a great day.

 

[Budman]

Form all I've gathered your BIG points are "we will always sin, and never lose salvation".
This keeps people in deception thinking they are Christians when they have not been reborn.

Here is my question; Can you recognize that I am telling you that this teaching here kept me in the darkness thinking I was Christian, and would have sent me strait to hell with a cross around my neck if I would have died in that wreck. What do you say about this? Can you even see my point about the danger of presenting the gospel in this way? At least.

Jim, what did I say that was untrue?

We can't lose our salvation.

We will continue to sin until the day we die.

You've been claiming the "Old Man" or the "Flesh" is dead in you.

If that were so, why do you still sin?

 

[Jimbone]

Jim, what did I say that was untrue?

We can't lose our salvation.

We will continue to sin until the day we die.

You've been claiming the "Old Man" or the "Flesh" is dead in you.

If that were so, why do you still sin?

Wow man, you are a kid.
Did you not read anything I wrote?
What do you say to to me telling you that the way you present the gospel kept me deceived in the dark, and could have sent me to hell? It DID do this, not "maybe could have" The way you deliver the good news is deceptive, and had me deceived. Not what you say per-say, but the way you ONLY give two points as the "biggest parts", them being #1. you will always sin. #2. You can NEVER lose salvation. When you present these facts as you do it paints a false sense of being saved when maybe I wasn't. It DID to me. That is what you do wrong. The way you've been promoting it here, to me, in 1,000 comments, and I am telling you what your "style" of presentation did to me. Concerning at all to you I was deceived by the partial gospel you're giving me here? This whole time.

 

[Macabeus]

I can't lie brother, He has brought me to this same place, I don't know I could have worded it any better, or even different. The part about us being in time and space is a vital point of contention when talking about the total sovereignty of God. I think another vital point of contention is a WAY too high a view of "man", and way to low a view of God. We are not the focal point, God alone is. God was not created to glorify us, but we were made to glorify Him. He is so good the He actually deals with our wickedness in His unbelievable long suffering so we can be saved to glorify Him and grow His kingdom. Him, Him, Him, Him, thank God it's all about Him.

One last thing I want to add because I understand this problem when speaking of Gods sovereignty. I always hear "if God is in total control of everything then what about the little girl kidnapped and sold into sex slavery?" Well first and foremost that is horrible beyond nightmarish belief, and may God save each and every one of those kids, and oh my goodness may the perpetrators find mercy or justice from our King. I truly understand this problem, but can't help but mention the little girl that was kidnapped and sold into sex slavery that grew up, got out, and was saved by our Almighty Creator to go on and become the most powerful testimony to this world you can imagine. These are hard truths, and I forgot where this quote came from, but I've heard it said that "If God looked through time to see who was going to choose Him, he would see nothing but a graveyard". Maybe instead of seeing it as "God chooses people for hell?" , maybe be amazed that He would choose any of us to save at all.

I can't lie brother, He has brought me to this same place, I don't know I could have worded it any better, or even different. The part about us being in time and space is a vital point of contention when talking about the total sovereignty of God. I think another vital point of contention is a WAY too high a view of "man", and way to low a view of God. We are not the focal point, God alone is. God was not created to glorify us, but we were made to glorify Him. He is so good the He actually deals with our wickedness in His unbelievable long suffering so we can be saved to glorify Him and grow His kingdom. Him, Him, Him, Him, thank God it's all about Him.

One last thing I want to add because I understand this problem when speaking of Gods sovereignty. I always hear "if God is in total control of everything then what about the little girl kidnapped and sold into sex slavery?" Well first and foremost that is horrible beyond nightmarish belief, and may God save each and every one of those kids, and oh my goodness may the perpetrators find mercy or justice from our King. I truly understand this problem, but can't help but mention the little girl that was kidnapped and sold into sex slavery that grew up, got out, and was saved by our Almighty Creator to go on and become the most powerful testimony to this world you can imagine. These are hard truths, and I forgot where this quote came from, but I've heard it said that "If God looked through time to see who was going to choose Him, he would see nothing but a graveyard". Maybe instead of seeing it as "God chooses people for hell?" , maybe be amazed that He would choose any of us to save at all.[/QUOTES]

Reminds me of Joseph in the OT. Blessings

 

[Budman]

Wow man, you are a kid.

And the name-calling continues....

The way you deliver the good news is deceptive, and had me deceived. Not what you say per-say, but the way you ONLY give two points as the "biggest parts", them being #1. you will always sin. #2. You can NEVER lose salvation.

Recognizing the fact one is a sinner, who will continue to sin, is essential to the gospel. It reveals that one has NO HOPE apart from Christ's saving blood! It keeps salvation in perspective if one starts to stay into a "works" based salvation mentality. We are totally dependent on God's saving grace throughout our lives.

Concerning at all to you I was deceived by the partial gospel you're giving me here?

Speaking of deception, why won't you answer this question?:

If the "Old Man" or the "Flesh" is dead in you, as you claim, why do you still sin, Jim?

 

[Milee777]

Wow. After two more long post I saw this and felt strait up ashamed. I got caught up to and pulled from the whole point of this thread too. Milee I too am sorry, and will stop right now (as if it's not WAY too late for this). And anything else I have to say I will message them or start out own thread. Internet rudeness. I'm sorry, and was honestly most interested in what you were saying asking anyway.

No need for apologies at all. Your discussions are something am curious to know too. Its not that what you and others are discussing about is something i don't struggle with myself...its a part of my own doubts and though slowly... am following the posts whenever the time is convenient.

 

[Milee777]

No it's not, if anything "change, change, change", but since you are lying on me right here, please produce one comment from me that makes the claim I am saying works save, or keep salvation. If you don't show me one or admit what you just did was wrong then you are a liar here and now. I posted your "We sin,We sin, We sin" comments, now post the ones where I'm saying works save or your exposed, hopefully to yourself.

I went to my college yesterday, i saw that some non Christians were behaving well...and i was wondering what is the difference between a Christian and a non Christian when it comes to a changed good behavior. Maybe its the love we have for others..? But what am slowly perceiving is that my love for humanity is growing dim and my feelings going numb for everyone... now recently diagnosed of depression on 11th of Jan, prescribed with some antidepressants too.... And i look at others and see how they are still interested in humanity, in showing some kind of good gestures and kindness though they are non Christians while i struggle to understand them... maybe its just that they are not under depression and being non Christians don't struggle with so many doubts and have their lives figured out and therefore its much easier for them to rejoice...and therefore be kind to everyone. Maybe they won't be kind if put in my situation. Most of them are hindus.. they come to me with food offered to idols... I feel anxious as i refuse to take what they offer thinking i will offend them and our so called friendship.. but somehow i do refuse because of the great fear in me of deteriorating my relationship with the Lord and remembering how Daniel's 3 frnds stood boldly while everyone bowed down to an image in the Bible.
Uhhm. So.. If a Christian does change... I do see your point because even in the Bible there is evident change.. Peter changes.. Paul changes. Its there in the Bible.. Its there in your life and some others too... But i wonder why not in my life. Correct me, rebuke if need be.. but point out what is wrong with me... what is wrong.

 

[Milee777]

Looking back on my posting history you'll see I've always said at conversion our desires will change. We will grow to love the things we once hated, and vice-versa. And I've also always said Christians should seek to live a life pleasing to the Lord. My only contention is the idea good works are irresistible. We still have our sin nature, and can certainly choose to disobey. My other point is our salvation is settled. It was settled at the cross - the blood of Jesus cleansing us from all sin - past, present, and future. We can never be lost based upon our behavior after conversion.

As I like to say: A Christian can't go to hell even if they wanted to.

My biggest beef with Jim is the idea the "Old Man' or the "Flesh" is dead. The very notion is unbiblical. We will continue to struggle with our sin nature up until the day we die (or until Jesus raptures us - whichever comes first).

So suppose a Christian is watching something disgusting online when Jesus comes to rapture Christians.... doesn't is seem... hmm... odd. Watching disgusting videos and boom... Am in heaven with a Holy God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So suppose a Christian is watching something disgusting online when Jesus comes to rapture Christians.... doesn't is seem... hmm... odd. Watching disgusting videos and boom... Am in heaven with a Holy God.

Its simple

If they are under law, they will be doomed,

If they are under grace, God will keep his promise.

 

[Milee777]

Jesus "is the propitiation..." 1 John 2:2. I want to concentrate on that portion of the text, we know the rest of the verse, but let's examine this portion. Propitiation means he satisfied God's wrath by paying our debt of sin. That also means it has been accepted and is therefore paid in full.

Accepting has nothing to do with it as far as man is concerned because that is God's place. God therefore accepted it. I'm not sure how we've transferred what God accepts as a payment to man having to accept it. That places us in the stead of God if you think about it. A sacrifice was always for God to accept, consider the OT system, Hebrews &c.

"World" means not only Jews. God didn't accept Jesus' sacrifice in the stead of all who have ever lived as their propitiation. If that were true we would have Universalism or all in hell are paying for a debt owed to God that has already once for all been paid in full.

To say man has to accept it for it to be valid and applied is in my opinion borderline sacrilege if not blasphemous. So that said I believe we should, as you do, adjust our beliefs and terminology according to Scripture.

Hmm. Ohkay. So why do you believe in Jesus... because God made you to believe.? Then why doesn't the Scriptures say 'to all who were made to believe' instead of'to all who believe'. Correct me if am wrong at my assumption.

 

[Milee777]

Hey man I have a question for you. Right here you are speaking of not being able to be "unsaved", which by the way I agree with 100%. I do not believe Jesus will lose even 1 that the Father has given Him, and those He starts a good work in He will see to the end, and if they went from us they were never of us. So I do not believe that one that is truly reborn of the Spirit, can lose salvation. Clear enough? I agree with this. So when we take this and match it with your other "key points" being, "we can still choose to resist God, we will sin forever, we can't stop sinning, etc..."

Can you understand at all how that can paint a very deceptive picture for the unbeliever, and/or false convert?

Look I agree we don't lose salvation, I agree with the fact the Christian still sins, I agree with both these points. I have the whole time even though somehow in your head "works are evidence of ones salvation", means that if anyone does anything good this means they are saved. This is not, the definition you've put on this phrase is not what I mean at all obviously. If you read "works are evidence of ones salvation" and that's preaching "works", you just have no clue what I'm saying.

"works are evidence of ones salvation" is the whole root of this "debate", even though your whole argument is "we still sin, we can still resist God, we will always sin". These are true statements and are super useful when one is just paralyzed with false guilt from things recognized after rebirth. Yes we are going to battle these things, but that "battle" is ALL God, is ALL by His grace to CHANGE us for His glory. You are saying the EXACT same thing, only your whole focus seems to be on man resisting Gods power after salvation. That's what I conclude from your words.

Form all I've gathered your BIG points are "we will always sin, and never lose salvation".
This keeps people in deception thinking they are Christians when they have not been reborn.

Here is my question; Can you recognize that I am telling you that this teaching here kept me in the darkness thinking I was Christian, and would have sent me strait to hell with a cross around my neck if I would have died in that wreck. What do you say about this? Can you even see my point about the danger of presenting the gospel in this way? At least.

I am telling you right here and now, as clearly as I can, that this that you are teaching here kept me in the dark, they kept me deceived in a false understanding and false sense of security thinking I was saved while living exactly how I was before, enslaved to drugs, porn, video games, selfishness, laziness, brokenness, hopelessness.


I was All NEW (does not mean sinless), and for you to just declare the "old man" being put to death means sinless is something I've never even heard a Christian say or teach, you're the only one I've ever even heard this from before. Nope, the old man is put to death when you're granted repentance. When you turn from "my way", you are putting to death the flesh to turn and FOLLOW Jesus. So we are really saying the same thing two different ways, but you have picked your tribe and dug in for battle. I know this because you have to have put a label on me in your head from the start, to start rebuking me on things I never said at all, and absolutely do not believe. I addressed and posted your words, not what I make up. You never once posted a comment of mine saying anything you rebuked me on. So I honestly have no idea who you were even talking to half the time.

So what to you think about you're teachings keeping me in the dark?
Does this concern you in the least?

I agree because... then the world cannot be changed if we remain the same. If a there's no true love.. then there's no true hope... to conquer the hate in this world... and the superficial deeds which when tested are rotten. True love... unconditional... this world needs that.

 

[Jimbone]

I went to my college yesterday, i saw that some non Christians were behaving well...and i was wondering what is the difference between a Christian and a non Christian when it comes to a changed good behavior. Maybe its the love we have for others..? But what am slowly perceiving is that my love for humanity is growing dim and my feelings going numb for everyone... now recently diagnosed of depression on 11th of Jan, prescribed with some antidepressants too.... And i look at others and see how they are still interested in humanity, in showing some kind of good gestures and kindness though they are non Christians while i struggle to understand them... maybe its just that they are not under depression and being non Christians don't struggle with so many doubts and have their lives figured out and therefore its much easier for them to rejoice...and therefore be kind to everyone. Maybe they won't be kind if put in my situation. Most of them are hindus.. they come to me with food offered to idols... I feel anxious as i refuse to take what they offer thinking i will offend them and our so called friendship.. but somehow i do refuse because of the great fear in me of deteriorating my relationship with the Lord and remembering how Daniel's 3 frnds stood boldly while everyone bowed down to an image in the Bible.
Uhhm. So.. If a Christian does change... I do see your point because even in the Bible there is evident change.. Peter changes.. Paul changes. Its there in the Bible.. Its there in your life and some others too... But i wonder why not in my life. Correct me, rebuke if need be.. but point out what is wrong with me... what is wrong.

I can understand the conflict, but remember that it's not what we put into our mouths that defiles us, it's what comes out.
It does also say in Rom 14:1-4
1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Then in 13-19 goes on to make it even clearer

13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

So in Christ you have a freedom to see these things for what they are in truth, and still give thanks to the true God, you are not condemned for these things. It also says that for the one that does think it wrong or "unclean", then for him it is. He is not to be judged for not eating nor you for eating. Our connection to God transcends these things of the flesh. This is why Jesus offers a peace that nothing in this world can. Once we are reborn of the Spirit, this is just simply the beginning of something so much bigger, namely the kingdom of God on earth. We are then called to go proclaim this kingdom to all nations.

I can not rebuke you, or tell you what you're doing wrong, because from what I see you are seeking with a very sincere heart (as much as we can "tell" these things through text), you are asking the right questions and honestly the way you see things I am impressed by, not only because it's honestly spot on , but also because when I was still in the flesh I was so far from caring about or even thinking about these matters.

To be honest the way you think reminds me of my wife, she was a thinker too, her testimony is coming to Him in a room alone with the Bible. Genuine seeking Him out. This is the impression I get when I read what you write. I truly believe with all my heart that this "knocking" you're doing is not going unheard. I pray for you right now that He let His will be done and that He gets you right where he needs you to be and grants you true repentance that leads to reconciliation. It's from Him, but He is so great He works within all our choices, actions and feelings to bring about His plan.

I can never give a "what to do" to receive this (because there is no "do", we can do nothing), but I can testify again of where I was when this took place in my life. I was at a place where I KNEW I was powerless to "fix" myself, yes physically, but also I knew there was something inside broken too that I could do nothing to repair. I knew "my way" was hopeless and futile. I can't repeat this enough, but when I hit my knees it wasn't "Jesus I need You now", no it was "I can't do this anymore!". It was complete defeat, knowing "I" was done. I pray in Jesus name that He grant you this gift and give you the peace in your heart that only He can give. Thank you so much for sharing on here. I know these places get a little too hot, in fact I really wish I would have approached Budman a little softer a few times in this very thread, but in Him we must proclaim the truth as He leads, I mean that for both of us, I appreciate the debate because a false works based salvation is just as deceptive as this kind of thing I got so consumed by that I forgot the much better and awesome conversation you started. I'm sorry about that by the way. This is so long now I will stop, I hope you have a good day, and hope to see ya later.

 

[Jimbone]

No need for apologies at all. Your discussions are something am curious to know too. Its not that what you and others are discussing about is something i don't struggle with myself...its a part of my own doubts and though slowly... am following the posts whenever the time is convenient.

Thank you, even though I apologized then went right back to it. What a hypocrite I am. Thank you for the grace though.

 

[preacher4truth]

Hmm. Ohkay. So why do you believe in Jesus... because God made you to believe.? Then why doesn't the Scriptures say 'to all who were made to believe' instead of'to all who believe'. Correct me if am wrong at my assumption.

I believe in the Gospel and person of Christ because God granted me belief at conversion, it is the work of God, not the work of man; John 6:29; Philippians 1:29. Note carefully 2 Peter 1:1.

Where does Romans 10:17 say faith comes from? Apparently this supernatural faith is not innate; Ephesians 1:19 shows us that it, faith, is the same power that raised Christ from the dead. Also faith isn't merely belief.

Can I ask a question of you, no offense intended, since you put it to me in the same sense, and after you examine the above truths: who made you believe, yourself? Or did God cause this within you through the Word and Spirit? Soli Deo Gloria?

 

[Jimbone]

I agree because... then the world cannot be changed if we remain the same. If a there's no true love.. then there's no true hope... to conquer the hate in this world... and the superficial deeds which when tested are rotten. True love... unconditional... this world needs that.

And to be fair I don't think he is denying the change really, he just puts WAY too big an emphasis on theses to points "We can still resist God and will always sin" true but why on earth would this be a Christians biggest message for the new believer or honest seeker? and then top it off with "you can never lose my salvation", so what I repeat a prayer and am in? What is I get baptized too? Am I the saved forever no matter how much I choose to "resist God"? Then I tell him strait up that this very SAME THING he is "proclaiming" kept me comfortable in my sin while saying "I'm Christian". If I would have died in my wreak then this "gospel" he's selling would have sent me strait to hell. I have asked him very clearly multiple times what he thinks about that FACT, the FACT that what he is teaching literally kept me deceived as a comfortable false convert, and he won't answer.
I honestly see you grasping what I'm saying better than he is. He is a kid in a fort throwing snowballs, he won't even address what I say, just always fall back to "do you still sin", LOL, his whole foundation is my sin. How sad, and just weird. Why a Christian reborn in the power of the Holy Spirit, would rather proclaim the power of Men to still resist God, than the power of that God to change us truly makes me wonder if they have even seen that power before. Anyway You understand the whole idea behind His kingdom, this is how it works and has worked for 2,000 years. He takes wretches like me, transforms us in a fundamental way, and sends us to go reach the all others. The only way to bring peace to this world is in love, and there is no way to truly love unless we are made whole in Jesus.

Finally he said to you
"My biggest beef with Jim is the idea the "Old Man' or the "Flesh" is dead. The very notion is unbiblical. We will continue to struggle with our sin nature up until the day we die (or until Jesus raptures us - whichever comes first). "

This beef isn't with me, it's with the unbiblical scriptures that say
Rom 6:5-7
5For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in resurrection. 6We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin. 7For anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

Rom 8:13For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Ephesians 4:22-24
that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Colossians 3:1-11
3 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. 3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming. 7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. 8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. 11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.

Galatians 5:16-18
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

1 Peter 2:24
and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

Matthew 9:17
"Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved."

And of course
John 3:3-8

3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

I suggest that it's his definitions of what these statements actually mean that's the problem here, He thinks this means you are sinless afterwords, and that's just simply wrong, or at the very lest not what I'm saying. So his WHOLE problem with me is "his misunderstanding", and he simply will not deal with anything I say. At all. I'm done trying with him. I've been clear enough with him, but praise God that you understand I'm simply proclaiming what's clearly written and can see it.

 

[Jimbone]

And the name-calling continues....



Recognizing the fact one is a sinner, who will continue to sin, is essential to the gospel. It reveals that one has NO HOPE apart from Christ's saving blood! It keeps salvation in perspective if one starts to stay into a "works" based salvation mentality. We are totally dependent on God's saving grace throughout our lives.



Speaking of deception, why won't you answer this question?:

If the "Old Man" or the "Flesh" is dead in you, as you claim, why do you still sin, Jim?

Okay here's your answer: Because the old man being put to death does not mean "I'm sinnless". Understand? It just doesn't mean what you claim it does. When you dies to the flesh, when the old man dies, this is when you are born again, born of the Spirit. In the flesh you are blind to the truths of the Spirit and CANNOT please God, When reborn, by His grace, you can now see these spiritual truths, and honestly can't understand how you never saw it before. You are made all new and now desire to please God, you are CHANGED from "the flesh" to "the Spirit". Please give me the verse that says these terms mean "I'm sinless now". You have no case and will NOT ANSWER my question about what you teach keeping me in darkness, and if that concerns you at all?

I'm going to play prophet, and I prophesy that he still will not answer this question I've asked 5 times now even though I answered his. I say the "Old Man" or the "Flesh" is dead, does not mean sinless. Either provide the scripture to make your case, or admit you had me all wrong and are accusing me of believing something I don't believe. Be a man and answer my question. Stand on your foundation and answer me.

 

[Milee777]

I believe in the Gospel and person of Christ because God granted me belief at conversion, it is the work of God, not the work of man; John 6:29; Philippians 1:29. Note carefully 2 Peter 1:1.

Where does Romans 10:17 say faith comes from? Apparently this supernatural faith is not innate; Ephesians 1:19 shows us that it, faith, is the same power that raised Christ from the dead. Also faith isn't merely belief.
Well, when i was about 12, i believed God existed, i saw a miracle... and was in wonder. The One my dad prayed to and the One we were praying to daily in our dining hall for a miracle actually existed! Woah. But then i went on with my life.... this knowledge was in the background... And i remember praying now and then for some deep concerns to Him. When i was 15...i was in deep problem... I realised i had done something very wrong.... I shut the myself in a room and wept.. I remember saying... '' i know You exist. ''... I was asking for forgiveness. Then what more... He was getting involved in my issues at school.. I felt so confident in Him. How He took care of all my concerns at school which i mentioned to Him in prayer. So then i realised i was in this relationship with Him...
Uhh. Coming to your question now. The answer is - i dont know. Just... go through the above and tell me how it happened.

 

[Milee777]

@preacher4truth: my answer above...is it clear? Am unable to edit it... I realised i erased some of ur answer and didn't leave a gap. My answer starts at.. '' Well, when i was about 12...''

 

[Milee777]

The gist is that... At an early age.. I realised God existed. And later...one day i sought Him for i was in deep distress. He answered... And then i also startrd relying on Him for all my problems and later on out of a desire to know Him i started reading the Bible... and was enjoying my relationship with Him... Later what happened wont be relavant to my answer so I'll leave till here.