Pentecostals and others claiming "second experiences"
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17 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ.
18 They said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.”
19 It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,
21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.
22 And have mercy on those who doubt;
Jude 1:
praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end, keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication
for all the saints,
Ephesians 6:18
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the
Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Romans 8:9
18 They said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.”
19 It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,
21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.
22 And have mercy on those who doubt;
Jude 1:
praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end, keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication
for all the saints,
Ephesians 6:18
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the
Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Romans 8:9
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the bottom-line is this,
if you feel in your heart-of-hearts that what you are doing is right, according to the scriptures
and are acting out your understanding, emotionally and physically,
then you should have a clear conscience in what ever you do, but if you don't, then another
door will be open to you and you will have a brand new opportunity to walk through it , IF
you have the courage to do so...
GAL. 6:7.
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap.
if you feel in your heart-of-hearts that what you are doing is right, according to the scriptures
and are acting out your understanding, emotionally and physically,
then you should have a clear conscience in what ever you do, but if you don't, then another
door will be open to you and you will have a brand new opportunity to walk through it , IF
you have the courage to do so...
GAL. 6:7.
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap.
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FYI, there have been many many objections by very well known leaders and respected pastors in Pentecostal/Charismatic circles
when people get on here and create this type of op it is VERY misleading because they misrepresent the truth and condemn what they have been pre programmed to condemn
prior to MacArthurs ridiculous and unbiblical assertions that all those who speak in tongues have demons, along with actual instructions in how to attack and try to get rid of all things Charismatic, there were already many objections
John Wimber, who founded the Vineyard Movement spoke against it
Derek Prince warned against the bizarre manifestations
David Wilkerson had nothing but warnings against what was happening...I heard him myself more than once...he would even cry and pound the pulpit in his anguish over the abuses
and many more...the one time editor of Charisma magazine stood against the abuses
the prosperity gospel, TV evangelists whose main reason for being on TV seems to be to beg for money...all these and more have been denounced by more people than those who fail to heed the warnings
I will say it again
since MacArthur wrote his book and said the things he did, the attacks on anything that resembles Charismatic beliefs have been attacked over and over and over
it is my personal belief, that MacArthur has unleashed demonic spirits to fight against the Spirit of God. his righteous anger and spirit is not of God. there is only one other source
yes I'm serious and I have not seen anyone else say that that I am aware of
but you can quote me
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Well, it is good that there are those standing against abuses as you mentioned. John Macarthur is not someone I listen to much and I haven't read any of his books so don't know much about him other than him being a pastor and author. John Piper is someone I have liked listening to before, though he says he is Calvinist and I don't consider myself Calvinist.
For the gift of tongues, I have been around people who believe in it and practice speaking and praying in tongues. They are some nice people and not the kind of people into those extremes. For myself, I have my own reasons why I am uncomfortable speaking in tongues. Some of it because of not knowing what I was saying, and praying for peace about it either way but not getting it and for a personal reason that may be good for me, to talk over with someone and other things.
For the gift of tongues, I have been around people who believe in it and practice speaking and praying in tongues. They are some nice people and not the kind of people into those extremes. For myself, I have my own reasons why I am uncomfortable speaking in tongues. Some of it because of not knowing what I was saying, and praying for peace about it either way but not getting it and for a personal reason that may be good for me, to talk over with someone and other things.
Yes it is the whole word of God, all things written in the law and the prohets .Scripture alone. No oral traditions such as the unknown tongue a doctrine of men.
Sola scriptura is the reforming authority in any generation. It makes the oral tradition of men to no effect rather than they making the word of God without effect.
Sola scriptura is the reforming authority in any generation. It makes the oral tradition of men to no effect rather than they making the word of God without effect.
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LORD JESUS SEND THE PROMISED HOLY GHOST!!!!
WILLIAM BOOTH SALVATION ARMY
Send the Fire
William Booth, 1894
WILLIAM BOOTH SALVATION ARMY
Send the Fire
William Booth, 1894
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A.D. 33 - The day of Pentecost:
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come they were all with one accord in one place... And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." ACTS 2:1-4
A.D. 41 - At Caesarea:
"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word... For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God." ACTS 10:44-46
A.D. 54 - At Ephesus:
"And it came to pass that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost... And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came upon them: and they spoke with tongues and prophesied." ACTS 19:1-6
A.D. - At Corinth:
"Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of Spiritual gifts, see that ye may excel to the edifying of the church... Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret... I thank my God that I (Paul) speak with tongues more than ye all." 1 CORINTHIANS 14:12-18
A.D. 100 - Eusebius (Church Historian):
Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says: "Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly embraced the true faith with their whole minds."
A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus:
Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John. He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."
A.D. 300 - The Early Martyrs:
The early martyrs enjoyed these gifts. Dean Ferrar, in his book "Darkness to Dawn" states: "Even for the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority." He refers to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues.
A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople:
Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople, writes: "Whoever was baptised in apostolic days, he straightway spoke with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit, not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God's grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spoke in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongues, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal."
A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo:
Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."
https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/evidence-speaking-tongues-early-church
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come they were all with one accord in one place... And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." ACTS 2:1-4
A.D. 41 - At Caesarea:
"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word... For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God." ACTS 10:44-46
A.D. 54 - At Ephesus:
"And it came to pass that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost... And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came upon them: and they spoke with tongues and prophesied." ACTS 19:1-6
A.D. - At Corinth:
"Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of Spiritual gifts, see that ye may excel to the edifying of the church... Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret... I thank my God that I (Paul) speak with tongues more than ye all." 1 CORINTHIANS 14:12-18
A.D. 100 - Eusebius (Church Historian):
Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says: "Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly embraced the true faith with their whole minds."
A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus:
Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John. He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."
A.D. 300 - The Early Martyrs:
The early martyrs enjoyed these gifts. Dean Ferrar, in his book "Darkness to Dawn" states: "Even for the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority." He refers to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues.
A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople:
Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople, writes: "Whoever was baptised in apostolic days, he straightway spoke with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit, not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God's grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spoke in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongues, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal."
A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo:
Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."
https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/evidence-speaking-tongues-early-church
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Wayne Grudome is NOT a cessationist
the op really has done some very bad full of holes research in his efforts to condemn what he has been told to condemn
John MacArthur on John Piper and Wayne Grudem regarding Spiritual Gifts
I've written about John MacArthur's upcoming Strange Fire conference (here, here, and here). Pastor MacArthur's rhetoric seems primarily rooted in responding to the face of charismatic Christianity as found on television. There seems to be little understanding of responsible charismatic theology. Dr. MacArthur doesn't even adequately define those who disagree with him. For example, Dr. MacArthur says the following in an interview in January 2011:
the op really has done some very bad full of holes research in his efforts to condemn what he has been told to condemn
John MacArthur on John Piper and Wayne Grudem regarding Spiritual Gifts
I've written about John MacArthur's upcoming Strange Fire conference (here, here, and here). Pastor MacArthur's rhetoric seems primarily rooted in responding to the face of charismatic Christianity as found on television. There seems to be little understanding of responsible charismatic theology. Dr. MacArthur doesn't even adequately define those who disagree with him. For example, Dr. MacArthur says the following in an interview in January 2011:
There are people like people like C.J. [Mahaney] and other people like that who have shed that theology and simply hold on to what is called a non-cessationist view, that is the view that may be the miracles and signs and the tongues still exist. They haven't ceased. That's what's called a non-cessationist. We would be cessationists, if we would say we can show biblically how that's all ceased. So what's left to them is they've embraced good theology and I think they're moving in the right direction. But many of them, you know, people like John Piper and Wayne Grudem who are, generally speaking, theologically sound will hold on to that non-cessationist's view and say, "Well, God could do that and there could be miracles and there could be tongues."
Dr. MacArthur has not done justice to these men and their views. John Piper and Wayne Grudem are not simply "non-cessationists" who think that God "could do that." This is false. Here is something of Piper's view from a sermon he preached:In the previous section I argued that "signs and wonders" in the New Testament were not the prerogative of apostles only. The "seventy" performed them (Luke 10:9,17), deacons performed them (Acts 6:8; 8:6), Galatian Christians performed them (Galatians 3:5), Corinthian Christians performed them (1 Corinthians 12:9-10). Since signs and wonders were not the prerogative of the apostles, there is no New Testament warrant for inferring that these miracles were to cease after the apostolic age.
In fact, I want to argue in this section that the New Testament teaches that spiritual gifts (including the more obviously supernatural or revelatory ones like prophecy and tongues) will continue until Jesus comes. The use of such gifts (miracles, faith, healings, prophecy, etc) give rise to what may sometimes be called "signs and wonders." Therefore signs and wonders are part of the blessing we should pray for today.
In fact, I want to argue in this section that the New Testament teaches that spiritual gifts (including the more obviously supernatural or revelatory ones like prophecy and tongues) will continue until Jesus comes. The use of such gifts (miracles, faith, healings, prophecy, etc) give rise to what may sometimes be called "signs and wonders." Therefore signs and wonders are part of the blessing we should pray for today.
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There is no text in the New Testament that teaches the cessation of these gifts. But more important than this silence is the text that explicitly teaches their continuance until Jesus comes, namely, 1 Corinthians 13:8-12.
The main point of this passage is that love is superior to spiritual gifts like "prophecies" and "tongues" and "knowledge". The basic argument for the superiority of love is that it lasts forever while these gifts do not. They cease "when the perfect comes," but love goes on forever. The reason given for why these gifts cease is that they are "imperfect". But when the "perfect" comes the imperfect will pass away. So the key question is: When does the "perfect" come which marks the end of the imperfect gifts like prophecy?
The answer is plain in the text if we follow Paul's line of reasoning. Verse 8 says, "Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away" (RSV). Why are these gifts temporary? The answer is given in verse 9: "For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect." So the reason these spiritual gifts are temporary is their incompleteness or imperfection.
How long then are they to last? Verse 10 gives the answer: "When the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away." But when is that? When does the perfect come? The answer is given in verse 12: "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood." The "now" of incompleteness and imperfection is contrasted with the "then" of seeing face to face and understanding even as we are understood.
So the answer to the question of when the perfect comes and when the imperfect gifts pass away is the "then" of verse 12, namely, the time of seeing "face to face" and "understanding as we are understood." When will this happen?
Both of these phrases ("seeing face to face" and "understanding as we have been understood") are stretched beyond the breaking point if we say that they refer to the closing of the New Testament canon or the close of the apostolic age. Rather, they refer to our experience at the second coming of Jesus. Then "we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2) The phrase "face to face" in the Greek Old Testament refers to seeing God personally (Genesis 32:30; Judges 6:22). Thomas Edwards' hundred-year-old commentary is right to say, "When the perfect is come at the advent of Christ, then the Christian will know God intuitively and directly, even as he was before known of God" (First Epistle to the Corinthians, p. 353, italics added).
This means that verse 10 can be paraphrased, "When Christ returns, the imperfect will pass away." And since "the imperfect" refers to spiritual gifts like prophecy and knowledge and tongues, we may paraphrase further, "When Christ returns, then prophecy and knowledge and tongues will pass away."
The main point of this passage is that love is superior to spiritual gifts like "prophecies" and "tongues" and "knowledge". The basic argument for the superiority of love is that it lasts forever while these gifts do not. They cease "when the perfect comes," but love goes on forever. The reason given for why these gifts cease is that they are "imperfect". But when the "perfect" comes the imperfect will pass away. So the key question is: When does the "perfect" come which marks the end of the imperfect gifts like prophecy?
The answer is plain in the text if we follow Paul's line of reasoning. Verse 8 says, "Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away" (RSV). Why are these gifts temporary? The answer is given in verse 9: "For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect." So the reason these spiritual gifts are temporary is their incompleteness or imperfection.
How long then are they to last? Verse 10 gives the answer: "When the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away." But when is that? When does the perfect come? The answer is given in verse 12: "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood." The "now" of incompleteness and imperfection is contrasted with the "then" of seeing face to face and understanding even as we are understood.
So the answer to the question of when the perfect comes and when the imperfect gifts pass away is the "then" of verse 12, namely, the time of seeing "face to face" and "understanding as we are understood." When will this happen?
Both of these phrases ("seeing face to face" and "understanding as we have been understood") are stretched beyond the breaking point if we say that they refer to the closing of the New Testament canon or the close of the apostolic age. Rather, they refer to our experience at the second coming of Jesus. Then "we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2) The phrase "face to face" in the Greek Old Testament refers to seeing God personally (Genesis 32:30; Judges 6:22). Thomas Edwards' hundred-year-old commentary is right to say, "When the perfect is come at the advent of Christ, then the Christian will know God intuitively and directly, even as he was before known of God" (First Epistle to the Corinthians, p. 353, italics added).
This means that verse 10 can be paraphrased, "When Christ returns, the imperfect will pass away." And since "the imperfect" refers to spiritual gifts like prophecy and knowledge and tongues, we may paraphrase further, "When Christ returns, then prophecy and knowledge and tongues will pass away."
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Here is a definite statement about the time of the cessation of spiritual gifts, and that time is the second coming of Christ. Richard Gaffin does not do justice to the actual wording of verse 10 when he says, "The time of the cessation of prophecy and tongues is an open question so far as this passage is concerned" (Perspectives on Pentecost, p. 111). It is not an open question. Paul says, "When the perfect comes [at that time, not before or after], the imperfect [gifts like prophecy and tongues, etc.] will pass away."
Therefore, 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teaches that such spiritual gifts will continue until the second coming of Jesus. There is no reason to exclude from this conclusion the other "imperfect" gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10. Since these include miracles, faith, healings, etc., with which we associate "signs and wonders", there is clear New Testament warrant for expecting that "signs and wonders" will continue until Jesus comes.
Now, obviously, this is more than simply saying that all the gifts "could" be operative today. Pastor Piper is arguing that all are available! Dr. MacArthur's comments are even more off-base in discussing Wayne Grudem's views. Reading chapters 52 and 53 of Dr. Grudem's Systematic Theology shows that he is very much arguing for the full range of spiritual gifts today--including gifts of healings, prophecy, tongues and interpretations of tongues. For those wanting a short study by Grudem on these issues and to see for themselves exactly what his views are, one should consult his essay Should Christians Expect Miracles Today? Objections and Answers from the Bible. Now there is a category of person who corresponds to Dr. MacArthur's "non-cessationist" portrayal. In a four-views book edited by Wayne Grudem entitled Are Miraculous Gifts for Today? Four Views (Zondervan, 1996) one of the views is called "Open But Cautious" and is defended by Robert L. Saucy. Saucy's position is nicely summed up by his words:To state my opinion up front, the New Testament does not explicitly teach the cessation of certain gifts at a particular point in the experience of the church. It is, therefore, impossible to say, on the basis of biblical teaching that certain gifts cannot occur at any given time according to God's sovereign purpose. On the other hand, there are several lines of evidence that demonstrate that the miraculous phenomena experienced in the early biblical church are not standard for the life of the church throughout all time. (p. 100)
Here is a statement that is reflective of MacArthur's "non-cessationist" position. This, however, is not Piper's or Grudem's view. To assert otherwise is irresponsible scholarship.Pastor John MacArthur should do two things. First, he should accurately and honestly speak of his fellow ministers' views. He may disagree with both Piper and Grudem but he should be able to correctly label their views. Second, it would be helpful if MacArthur would responsibly interact with the actual arguments put forward by Piper and Grudem. In his book Charismatic Chaos MacArthur interacts with Grudem's views on prophecy in only one footnote on pages 368-369 and even this does not adequately articulate Grudem's views.
SOURCE
article was written prior to MacArthur's private war on all things beyond his 5 senses, in June of 2013 and the conference was in the fall I believe of the same year
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- Justin Martyr (100-165): “For the prophetical gifts remain with us even to the present time. Now it is possible to see among us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God.”
- Irenaeus (125-200): “In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts and through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages. ... Yes, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years.”
- Tertullian (150-240): “For seeing that we too acknowledge the spiritual charismata, or gifts, we too have merited the attainment of the prophetic gift ... and heaven knows how many distinguished men, to say nothing of the common people, have been cured either of devils or of their sicknesses.”
- Novation (210-280): “This is he [the Holy Spirit] who places prophets in the church, instructs teachers, directs tongues, gives powers and healings, does wonderful works ... and arranges whatever gifts there are of the charismata; and thus making the Lord’s church everywhere, and in all, perfected and completed."
- Origen (185-284): “Some give evidence of their having received through this faith a marvelous power by the cures which they perform, invoking no other name over those who need their help than that of the God of all things, along with Jesus and a mention of his history.”
- Augustine (354-430): In his work The City of God, Augustine tells of healings and miracles that he has observed firsthand and then says, “I am so pressed by the promise of finishing this work that I cannot record all the miracles I know.”
The False Doctrine Behind the 'Strange Fire' of John MacArthur
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