Understanding God’s election

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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"Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." Jesus' words, John 3 verse 3 If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Romans 8 verse 9 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything. What counts is a new creation. Galatians 6 verse 15 The spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 1 Corinthians 15 verse 46
Thank you for the inspiration! :)
 

lrs68

Active member
Dec 30, 2024
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Here you go again! Now you claim God ordained all humans to live for Him. Since many do not live for him, then you must believe that we have a very weak God who has control over nothing.
Why would God be weak for ordaining the only way to Salvation being through Jesus in the beginning and foundation of the world?
 
Oct 19, 2024
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'TRY' is the key word.

Concerning salvation and eternal security no need to "TRY."

It's equal privilege and equal opportunity.

All can believe. And All have eternal security.

Draw your theory out.....It's not equal privilege and equal opportunity. Some may forfeit, walk away, jump out of His hand or lose salvation.....Impugning His Justice.
Yes, "try" means "seek", and concerning salvation all can obey Christ's call to repent and seek salvation--forever.
But some may choose not to persevere in saving faith--justly going to hell for despising divine love.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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Here you go again! Now you claim God ordained all humans to live for Him. Since many do not live for him, then you must believe that we have a very weak God who has control over nothing.
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.


But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:15-19‬ ‭

God doesn’t claim to control man’s actions he teaches them to do good and live and warns them of evil and death then says choose good and live

he speaks his word and calls to mankind ….he doesn’t operate them like puppets he created living souls in his own image
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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Now ask yourself – If it had been God's plan for Esau to die at the age of 6 weeks, would he have been saved or was he chosen for destruction prior to birth?
IF it had been God's plan for Esau to die at the age of 6 weeks, he would have been saved. However, God chooses no one for premature death, so the premise of your question is flawed, making your conclusion flawed.

It is also logically flawed to assume that because God allocated Esau and his descendants to serve Jacob and his descendants as the tribe through whom messiah would come in 1836 BC, that God's statement made 1400 years later, in 430 BC, rebuking Esau's descendants for seeking the destruction of Jacob during the fourth and fifth centuries BC, was addressed to the baby Esau in the womb of Rachel.

Interpreting God's expression of hatred of the 4th century BC Edom to be an expression of God's hatred for their original progenitor who lived 1400 years earlier. God does not hate someone on the basis that their descendants 1400 years later will do evil things.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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Why would God be weak for ordaining the only way to Salvation being through Jesus in the beginning and foundation of the world?
Yes, and Paul said when he was weak, then he was strong, and Jesus taught that the greatest in heaven is the servant of all.
Any nerd can program a robot, but it takes God to create MFW.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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Yes, and Paul said when he was weak, then he was strong, and Jesus taught that the greatest in heaven is the servant of all.
Any nerd can program a robot, but it takes God to create MFW.
And it takes God to deal with MFW perfectly so MFW in some and God's will ultimately align and work cooperatively together in mutual love.
 
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Sorry. Pretty cryptic.

Some form or point of human free will is condemned by some on this thread. I was just noting how the ultimate act of human free will was contained in the verses you posted.
Ok gotcha . Sorry my brain moves slow these days lol

I agree
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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If someone decides to walk away
Well you frame it as "walking away" yet you have not demonstrated how someone can assume the debt again when it has been completely paid and the person received that gift of payment.

The only way I have ever seen anyone get around this is to argue that only past sins are paid for and after "justification" a person must confess every sin to stay saved?

Is this what you think scripture teaches?

It also seems that you want to make justification an ongoing process and again that is contrary to scripture.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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Some form or point of human free will is condemned by some on this thread.
If you mean to say it (the free will of the natural man) is not taught in the Bible? Oh, no, of course you do not mean that.

The whole world is under the power of Satan, but you believe man has free will any ways.

Affirming Scriptural truth is not condemning free will, you know. Jeepers.

It is even said of some that they are taken captive to the will of the devil. But you reject that, too.

Considering how much you claim you have studied, it is shocking how little you understand.
 
Dec 14, 2018
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I guess I will throw my 2 cents into this discussion. Now the people who say you have free will to be saved. I can see thier line of reasoning but I can see it has flaws. And not just scripture based flaws.

I belive you have free will on wether or not to have faith in Jesus. But the only reason you have the free will to choose to have faith in Jesus is by the grace of God.

So through grace you are saved by faith. You would simply not even have the choice of faith in Jesus without the grace of God. The grace must come forth first in that equation and it cannot come from a man.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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Sorry. Pretty cryptic.

Some form or point of human free will is condemned by some on this thread. I was just noting how the ultimate act of human free will was contained in the verses you posted.
Interesting redX. I guess Jesus didn't choose to do what He did for us.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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Nothing in the Bible makes such a claim. God said He didn't want anyone to perish. By that statement from God it's safe to believe He did ordain all humans to live for Him.
2Pet 3:9, to which you are alluding, does NOT say what you claim! You are ignoring the context of the passage. Was the world the original audience to Peter's 2nd Epistle?

Peter wrote to the Jews.

But the scripture reference doesn't speak about foreordainment.
Nor does "the scripture reference" teach what you claim, since Peter's original audience were largely messianic Jews. God is patient, therefore, toward them (the "you" in 2Pet 3:9) -- not the world at large.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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Understood and appreciated. As time goes on, I simply have found myself setting aside the theological descriptives like intentional and permissive and being more willing to flow with the terminology of the discussion as much as makes sense to me.

I do like what you said that I highlighted above. In all these discussions re: loss of salvation and such, including as in #12,250 above, this matter of MFW as you refer to it and that @Rufus criticizes so adamantly, has become more and more important and pointed and important for me in how I view the Text. It was important before but especially in the loss discussions I can better see that nothing really makes sense if it negates human choice.

Thanks for the comments.
The evil one has blinded you by taking your eyes off the real ball (the human heart) and placing it on human will which resides in the human heart. So, now you're fully distracted by a mere component of the human heart! God didn't promise in the New Covenant to get his people a new volition but rather a new heart! Nor did God promise to circumcise the human volition but rather the human heart. Man is not called to fear God in his human volition but in his heart instead. Man is enjoined to believe in Christ not with all human volition but with his heart, etc., etc.
 
Sep 2, 2020
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Well you frame it as "walking away" yet you have not demonstrated how someone can assume the debt again when it has been completely paid and the person received that gift of payment.

The only way I have ever seen anyone get around this is to argue that only past sins are paid for and after "justification" a person must confess every sin to stay saved?

Is this what you think scripture teaches?

It also seems that you want to make justification an ongoing process and again that is contrary to scripture.
Read this parable and you’ll see how one can be forgiven completely and made free but then later have the debt reinstated because ofnthier actions

I hope we can appreciate who it is teaching his disciples this it’s a lesson from the lord

“Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. ( everyone faces judgement)

And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his Lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the Lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their Lord all that was done. Then his Lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his Lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.


So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:21-35‬ ‭KJV‬‬


he was forgiven completely but then he went out and refused to forgive others and the man ended up not forgiven by his own actions towards others . That’s how God is in the gospel .

This matters alot because we’re all less than perfect sinners even if we think we’re perfectly righteous it’s just bad eyesight when looking at ourselves and so this becomes paramount in Christs judgement

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

alike the man in the parable of the kingdom we all need mercy and we all need to also give out that mercy when someone offends us ….

Notice this isn’t for those outside Christ but it’s for the children

“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

For those who would listen tonjesus and believe him . Think of it if o refuse to forgive another person for thier sin against me …I’m actually denying that Jesus died for that sin and holding it against them who he died that I should forgive …..forgiveness is really really important and effectual in Christ
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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Well you frame it as "walking away" yet you have not demonstrated how someone can assume the debt again when it has been completely paid and the person received that gift of payment.

The only way I have ever seen anyone get around this is to argue that only past sins are paid for and after "justification" a person must confess every sin to stay saved?

Is this what you think scripture teaches?

It also seems that you want to make justification an ongoing process and again that is contrary to scripture.
And you have not demonstrated that no one can choose to walk away. I don't think anyone has.

The initial justification is release from a debt and imprisonment we could not pay and could not free ourselves from. Thereafter we are to be living, abiding, enduring in Faith-Obedience to our Lord God doing Good Works He created us to do. I think most of us here are pretty well convinced we are doing this. But this doesn't mean all others are or will. I've met and grilled at least one who was fully convinced of entering into Christ and choosing to walk away. It's quite the thing to have an in-depth discussion with someone who knows the Text, has been very active in Church and even in leadership, walked away, rejected, renounced, and can meet you head-on in any discussion re: Security you can muster. What happened in the years since then I cannot know.

I'd post the Kingdom principle Jesus taught in Matt18:23-35 re: forgiveness of debt, which I've noticed has been battled on some thread with @Beckworth doing some of the work as I recall. I think Justification is just like Faith and Salvation, etc... it is proven over time and must be. And the final judge of this reality in anyone's else's life is not us. We can see some signs but that's about it. Over time we can see better.