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This is where confusion comes in. And so many get confused about what is being said. So I will use an example of
Abraham was told by God, Leave your family, your land and your home, and go to a place I have prepared for you.
now what scenario's do we have?
Abraham did not believe, He would have showed this by not leaving.
He believed but was not assured. He may have left, he may not have left.
He was fully assured, HAD FAITH. He would have not only left. but he would have done alot of what God said. Which is what we see.
And remember, His faith was not perfect. He lacked faith in God completely. we know because he committed adultery with his maid. because he lost faith in God.
However, this is what we do know. God still kept his promise, even in spite of Abraham's lack of faith, and grave sin which he committed.
Now we go to James. James makes it clear. If one states he has faith. But has zero works, can this faith save him? Then he makes the statement which has been misinterpreted by so many people through the ages. Faith without works is dead.
Back to abraham. Was Abraham perfect? No! He committed a grave sin, He even lied about who his wife was because of lack of faith that God could protect him from a king. But when we look at his life. He did do many things which showed his faith was real. Using James statement as a guide. If Abraham did not even take the first step, In other words. he would have had no works, proving his faith was dead.
Thus comes the statement of what James was saying. Can a man be saved if they have NO FAITH? of course, I am sure if we look openly, we would have to agree, the answer would be no. So how would this prove OSAS is wrong? Abraham was not perfect. He committed grave sins, Yet God still saved him, According to paul, not because he did work, but because he believed in God..
I do not know how more clear it can get. James is not saying one must work or they will lose salvation. He is speaking of licenteous people who may have had a mere belief in God and his promises, but had not faith in what God said about them (they are sinners) about their state because of that sin (they are condemned) and about what one must do to be saved (not just mere belief but faith or a full assurance.) and how can we know> They did nto show the changed life which WOULD OCCUR in one who had been made a new creation in God (eph 2:10) based on their faith in Christ (eph 2: 8-9)
This is good. because faith will produce works, and acts. It is lack of faith which causes inaction, because we do not trust what we are asked to do. And are not assured that the result of the action will go to our favor. It is called pride.
If you read what Greeny and clutz have said, You would see this is not a fact with them. I have been told I have not entered rest. That I have not done this or that, and because of it. I can not be saved. I am an easy believist, I am a lover of sin, etc etc etc.
And remember, this line of discussion happened because of what Greeny said to me. So if you do not believe as they do, forgive me for making accusations, I guess you could say I assumed you believed as they did, because this discussion started with what they said. I can also say, I agree with what you said in this last statement
I have to get to church, I will respond to the rest of this later this afternoon (I also have a deacons meeting after church) so please do not think I am ignoring you if you do not see the rest right away. I am glad we are having this talk though. Maybe we can finally see what the other believes. Which is not normal in these chat rooms. I have cut the rest out, and will past in a new response, so will not see if you have responded to this before I answer the rest.
Abraham was told by God, Leave your family, your land and your home, and go to a place I have prepared for you.
now what scenario's do we have?
Abraham did not believe, He would have showed this by not leaving.
He believed but was not assured. He may have left, he may not have left.
He was fully assured, HAD FAITH. He would have not only left. but he would have done alot of what God said. Which is what we see.
And remember, His faith was not perfect. He lacked faith in God completely. we know because he committed adultery with his maid. because he lost faith in God.
However, this is what we do know. God still kept his promise, even in spite of Abraham's lack of faith, and grave sin which he committed.
Now we go to James. James makes it clear. If one states he has faith. But has zero works, can this faith save him? Then he makes the statement which has been misinterpreted by so many people through the ages. Faith without works is dead.
Back to abraham. Was Abraham perfect? No! He committed a grave sin, He even lied about who his wife was because of lack of faith that God could protect him from a king. But when we look at his life. He did do many things which showed his faith was real. Using James statement as a guide. If Abraham did not even take the first step, In other words. he would have had no works, proving his faith was dead.
Thus comes the statement of what James was saying. Can a man be saved if they have NO FAITH? of course, I am sure if we look openly, we would have to agree, the answer would be no. So how would this prove OSAS is wrong? Abraham was not perfect. He committed grave sins, Yet God still saved him, According to paul, not because he did work, but because he believed in God..
I do not know how more clear it can get. James is not saying one must work or they will lose salvation. He is speaking of licenteous people who may have had a mere belief in God and his promises, but had not faith in what God said about them (they are sinners) about their state because of that sin (they are condemned) and about what one must do to be saved (not just mere belief but faith or a full assurance.) and how can we know> They did nto show the changed life which WOULD OCCUR in one who had been made a new creation in God (eph 2:10) based on their faith in Christ (eph 2: 8-9)
This is good. because faith will produce works, and acts. It is lack of faith which causes inaction, because we do not trust what we are asked to do. And are not assured that the result of the action will go to our favor. It is called pride.
If you read what Greeny and clutz have said, You would see this is not a fact with them. I have been told I have not entered rest. That I have not done this or that, and because of it. I can not be saved. I am an easy believist, I am a lover of sin, etc etc etc.
And remember, this line of discussion happened because of what Greeny said to me. So if you do not believe as they do, forgive me for making accusations, I guess you could say I assumed you believed as they did, because this discussion started with what they said. I can also say, I agree with what you said in this last statement
I have to get to church, I will respond to the rest of this later this afternoon (I also have a deacons meeting after church) so please do not think I am ignoring you if you do not see the rest right away. I am glad we are having this talk though. Maybe we can finally see what the other believes. Which is not normal in these chat rooms. I have cut the rest out, and will past in a new response, so will not see if you have responded to this before I answer the rest.
