If Women Can't Have Authority Over Men in the Church, Why Are They Expected to Teach in School?

Thanks. We disagree on the last point (bolded). I don't accept that premise, because I believe that the Hebrew term ezer kenegdo indicates equality and correspondence, not subservience or inferiority in the slightest.

I'm curious because I've honestly never heard someone say they didn't believe in Bible colleges before (I'm not criticizing - it's just a new concept to me.)

* If you don't believe in Bible colleges, how do you believe one becomes an official pastor/Biblical teacher?

* What safeguards would be put into place to prevent just anyone from declaring themselves to be a S.A.P. (Self-Appointed Pastor or Prophet)?

I'm asking because I saw a lot of this in my hometown - men who automatically gave themselves authoritative spiritual titles but yet had nothing to back it but their own word.

I would guess this is also why internet "preaching" is so popular - anyone can claim to be some kind of spiritual authority without any actual credentials or accountability.

What are your thoughts on how the authority to teach would be legitimately obtained and kept in check? (I'm not saying all Bible colleges have it right, I'm just saying that it's one form of accountability, even though it's not perfect, so what other options do you believe in?)

Otherwise, it's like a surgeon who tries to claim he can perform operations just because he's self-taught.

I'm certainly not saying that it takes some kind of Bible degree in order for the Lord to speak through someone. I'm just saying, that without any kind of checks and balances system, sin and human nature will cause people to be more likely to claim authority that God never gave them.

Ephesians 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

1 Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.

Acts 6:1 In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Hellenistic Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food.
2 So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, “It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables.
3 Brothers and sisters, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them
4 and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word.”

Psalm 68:5 Father of the fatherless and protector of widows is God in his holy habitation.

If children are taught by parents up until adulthood when they go and find themselves a spouse. The wife would have been instrusted by her parents if she had questions about scripture. If she was married that responsability would fall on her husband.

A pastors role over the flock requires him to be a husband and father. In order to have the qualities to properly run the house of God. The flock then would be the pastors responsability. Daughters, widows, fatherless children, young men and women still learning how to become mature in Christ. They are all under the pastors spiritual guidance.

Thats why the pastor's role has specific characteristics. A single man cannot be a pastor. How can he give his flock spiritual guidance on issues concerning marriage or raising children? If he does not have a wife or children? The flock is lead by example, so the pastor has to be the example in all areas. A single man is not the example for a married man. Nor is a woman or single mother the example for a married man as well. Hence a woman does not meet the requirements. She cannot be the head of her own family how can she be the head of the flock?

The apostles dealt with all sorts of matters such as the widows being overlooked. They had them choose 7 to deal with the matter. It wouldn't seem unlikely for a pastor to designate certain members for specific situations where single or widowed women are able to seek spiritual guidance if they have questions. Likewise for men as well who may have questions. Everything can be done accordingly and with order. Under proper authority. Not all pastors are cut out for their role. But bible colleges may be the problem for that.

There are countless number of single women that are the head of their family. My wife was a single mom for years and very much the head of the household.

Good question. 1 Timothy 3 explains the requirements for the pastoral role. Jesus also explained that His kingdom is not like ours. He wants us to serve one another. But the one greatest will serve all.

Luke 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

So I take that the pastors role is not an easy role. To be the servant of Gods flock, he will have to deal with everyones problems on top of his own. So it is more than merely learning the Word of God but applying it. How well you apply it is where God will give you more responsability.

I would assume in order to begin, you start off in certains roles within the church, and show yourself approved among the elders. Being a pastor is a calling. One must prove first to be good manager of what God has given him (wife, children). In order to then be promoted to a pastor of a flock.

Going off to bible college skips alot of steps. Such as personal relationship in the church. Developing these skills by hands on training. Working hand in hand with the pastor and being taught and sharpened by him and other brothers in the church.

Its easier to spot signs where a person needs to grow in certain areas of their life, when its up close and personal. Whats personal about bible college? Most people that attend come from another town, state, or country. And its on a set timed curiculum. I don't think God works on a set time frame. But rather He develops a person over LONG DURATION of time. It is part of a persons personal walk with God.

I would say in order to be safe in what church you are in, observe the pastors family. Do his wife and children honor God and follow what the bible says? Because it reflects his ability to lead his family in Christ. Kids doing bad things, not going to church? Wife not submissive to the pastor or doing worldly behaviors? Those are red flags.

May seem innocent enough, we all deal with the same circumstances. But if his situation is no different then mine, than why is he my example and leader? What can I learn from him if he hasnt been able to apply scripture to his life and in his family life to produce fruit? The pastors family is the benchmark. Our example, and he is able to teach us and help us mirror that. Both him and his wife. His wife to give guidance to the other women.

Does that answer some of your questions?

Do you follow her example? You are a man right? Im sure you agree those kids need a father. Just because the woman manages, doesnt mean that is ideal.

I mentioned in my previous post that the supporter role is not an inferior role. It is powerful because God ordained it. It is a blessing, and a privilege.

Well, if a single mom is divorced, perhaps from an abusive husband, there would be those that would shower her with bible verses that would prohibit her remarrying and providing a father for the children. You stated that a single woman is not qualified to lead in a position of authority because she lacks experience as a head of household and my point was that there are many single mothers who have been the head of household for years, many of which have vastly more experience in this area than men. No, it's probably not ideal but then again, that wasn't the point of contention. All kids need a loving supportive father but sadly this is lacking in many households. A lot of woman, single, married or otherwise are more than qualified to lead based on their lifelong experience and spiritual principals and practices, and in many instances more qualified then men.

Qualification though requires man to be the head of a woman. That was the point. Woman can be the head of a broken home, you made that clear. Gods home is not a broken home. We have a Father. We are not Fatherless.

So why use the example of a broken home and the single mother as thee example for the church body? (Meaning having that woman pastor a church.) That doesnt make any sense. I think you just wanted to point out that women can be the head of household in a broken home and that is unfortunate, but definetely not ideal.

What if she was an orphan? What if the parents were ungodly?
What if the husband does not understand scripture? What if the husband is ungodly?

Personally I don't mind keeping quiet in church, after all I'm an introvert.

If I don't understand something, I'll Google it. I can read or listen to knowledgeable people from anywhere in the world.

Besides, a woman does not need a man to lead her spiritually.
Hebrews 8:11 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

Whether the woman be single(free) or married, she can know the Lord. Thank you Jesus.

God gave Lydia understanding, she did not need to ask her husband (if she had one) anything. Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Mary who sat at the feet of Jesus, to listen to him, if she had a husband, did not have to ask anything Luke 10:39

When God gives a woman understanding to search and know the scriptures, she has no need to be taught by her husband. And as such the husband needs to occupy himself doing other useful activities, like taking his wife out to dinner.

The husband and wife should have prayer/worship/scripture reading time together where they both share and edify eachother. And if the wife is more knowledgeable, won't she teach him? Or will he say, woman I am your head, you can't teach me?

Lol thats funny. Who would even talk like that though? Woman, im your head. Now go make me a samwhich.. lol thats crazy.

If the kids are orphans than people have a whole lot more responsability for what we do with our lives right? Think about it, charaties and missions do alot of this. But maybe us as Christians need to do more. Because their are all kinds of kids out there who dont learn about God. I meet them all the time. Because the parents dont teach them.

So although it starts with the parents, youre right not all parents teach their kids about God. Not all people focus on God. They know the basics and thats it, out of sight out of mind.

As for the ungodly husband.. she should have picked a better man to begin with. We should not be unequally yoked.

The power of a woman lies greatly in her words. They have the power to influence a man. This is the power that satan does not want for women to apply in the righteous way. That's why he targets women to get to the man. Just like what happened in Eden. If he can't get the man directly, he will use a woman.

Perhaps it didn't occur to you that already-married women get saved, while their husbands don't?

Thank you for taking the time to explain some of your thoughts.

Going from some of the wording you used, such as, "I would assume in order to begin with," and "I would say in order to be safe", I am guessing that you personally have not seen the progression of a man who went from a church member to being mentored, taught, and then established as an official pastor at your church?

One of the things my old synod did was to never allow a pastor to be assigned to a congregation he grew up in, according to, "A prophet is not without honor, EXCEPT in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own home" (Mark 6:4.)

I understand your point and references about a pastor being a good role model, as well as having his family under control. However, all pastors are human. People expect perfection but that's not what they're getting, and the churches are running out of pastors. While I was growing up, 3 pastors in my church and school had kids who chose their own paths, and several members of the congregation called for them to be removed. One was let go, but for various reasons, the other 2 were kept on staff. I know this would take the discussion in an entirely different direction, so I'll just stop there.

I do find it interesting though that you seem to have an idea of how a pastor should be made, but haven't actually witnessed any in the making yourself, thereby you have no personal experience in seeing how your recommended process would be carried out, or what the results were?

I'm just finding it interesting that you've pointed out the flaws you see in Bible colleges, even going so far as to say that there is no use in going to them, but as an alternative, all you seem to offer are assumptions at what you "think" might make a pastor.

I'm not criticizing your ideas, and I'm certainly not saying that Bible colleges get everything right (henceforth the very purpose behind my thread.)

But what I WOULD like to ask, how do you know what makes a pastor when you've never experienced nor observed the process for yourself?

I'm not trying to claim to be any kind of expert either. I just know that as a kid growing up we saw part of the process: the programs potential teachers and pastors had to take in high school; the colleges they would be directed to; teacher and vicars in training from the Bible colleges who both sat in to observe our classes and at churches for several semesters of teaching or preaching, all as part of their required Bible college and then seminary training.

(I'm trying to remember, but I believe in the synod I grew up in, it took 8 years of schooling beyond high school, and another 2 years of active, on-the-job training as a vicar in a congregation other than their hometown.)

God is the head of Christ, Christ is the head of man, man is the head of woman, and woman is the head of angels, which is the authority structure of God concerning the Church while on earth.

But all men do not have authority over the women.

In the Lord a man and a woman are equal, for there is no difference between a man and a woman in the Lord, and in the Church, and at Church, a man and woman are equal, even the preacher.

A woman should not usurp authority over a man, but she can consider herself equal to a man.

When a person has the Spirit the kingdom of God is within them, and in the kingdom of God there is no difference between them.

A woman can preach, teach, and do the things that a man can do.

The Bible says that God will pour out of His Spirit upon all flesh, and the men and women shall both prophecy.

The Bible says that when the saints come together they all have something to add to the service, and since a man and a woman are equal, and both prophesy, it includes all of them.

Shall not a woman sing, and praise God in Church, and give testimonies.

When the preacher is speaking both men and women should both be quiet.

When the saints come together to worship God, and hear the word of God, it should be a man to take the lead in that circumstance, and he has the floor so do not interrupt him when he has the floor, and when he is finished with his business he turns the service over to the saints, and they all can contribute to the service both men and women.

So they might of had a problem at that Church of the women speaking, which if they speak they interrupt the service, and the preacher, who has the floor, and in charge, and if they want to talk to their husbands wait until they get home, for the man cannot answer her for then he too is speaking, and disrupting the preacher.

The preacher has the floor, and in charge, so he should be the only one speaking.

But since the preacher is in charge he can say to a woman say what you want for a moment, and say what is on your mind, for she is not interrupting the preacher, and if he wants he can have her come up and say a few words to the congregation, for she is not interrupting him, but he is still in charge and directs the service, and the congregation.

The man is head of the woman, but only the preacher when it comes to the Church of God, not all men have the authority over all women.

We are all instructed to preach the Gospel of Christ, so women can preach to men, and women, and there are settings that is not at Church, such as homes, or other places, where the man, the preacher is not in charge there.

Also God does not give more wisdom to a man than a woman, and does not give more wisdom to a preacher than the congregation, but all that asks for wisdom He gives to all people liberally, nothing wavering.

So a woman can know as much as a man, and can know more if she applies herself more than a certain man, so we can learn from women as much as a man, and people study different things, which is why when the preacher is done having the floor, and turns it over to the congregation they all have something to add, which is more beneficial than one person alone, the preacher.

When the saints come together to worship God, and hear the word of God, it should be a man to take the lead according to the authority structure on earth, but in the Lord a man and a woman are equal, for there is no difference between them in the spiritual realm, which the kingdom of God is within them.

And if it gives any comfort to women, Jesus said whoever is the greater let him be a servant, so the preacher, man, is actually a servant to the woman, as well as all the congregation.

Which it would seem like I would not have to write that, but we live in a world now where people are so bent on wanting to exalt themselves above other people that they cannot stand anyone having any rule over them, like men and women battling for control in the marriage, and children trying to have authority over the parents, and a say so above the parents.

And I say that a man and a woman are equal, and I do not like to control other people, so this is not meant in a wrong way, but America gave women liberty that they have not had in the past, and what do we find out, that the women act like the men for they have the liberty to do so.

For the world is based on self exaltation, to exalt yourselves above other people, so all that talk of women saying equal rights is not necessarily true, for that is not how the world operates, for they do not want to be equal, but want to be above.

Do people in business want to be equal, do people in war want to be equal, do people in sports want to be equal, do people in how they look want to be equal, or anything else of competition, or differences between people, do they want to be equal.

But they do not want to be equal, but they want to be above, for that is the way the world operates, so women do not want equal rights, but they want to be above for that is the way the world works, which is why many of them slander men.

But God said what makes you to differ from another person, and they accuse, and excuse each other, for they accuse other groups, whatever it is, then make excuses for their own group, all the while they all act the same.

For women always wanted control, and power, for that is the way the world operates, but they could not get it, but America gave them liberty to do so, which we find out they act like the men being able to have that liberty, as they are out there battling with the men over things in society, and the marriage.

And the world all plays the same game wanting power, and control, all the while accusing, and excusing each other, but they all act the same.

So all this talk of men this, and woman that, and white people this, and black people that, means nothing, for they are all acting the same, but they cry oppression when they do not have the power, and are not on top, but they want the power, and to be on top too.

So according to the course of the world of the way they operate, and they all play the same game, the men are justified for controlling the women, because they want the same over the men, and the white people are justified for having power over the blacks, in America, and the world, for the blacks want the same thing, and they all play the same game, wanting power, and control.

According to God they are not justified, but according to the world they are justified for they all play the same game wanting power, and control, but they cry oppression, and they are cruel, when they do not have the power, and control, but they want it too.

For that is the way of the world.

And I point this out for many women cannot stand that a man is to be head of the congregation, for they have liberty to go against that unlike in the past, and push for power, and control, having the liberty, the same as black people cannot stand that white people have the power, and control, all the while they want the same thing.

But I view all people as equal, but the world does not view it like that, and do not want to be equal, but to be above.

Must have slipped my mind Dino. C'mon Dino. I live in the real world. Many people deal with these issues were talking about. Do you really think I dont get that?
I havent been in my walk long enough to see any of this happen. I grew up not wanting to go to church as a kid. I was too busy living a life of sin. But God saved me from that life. And here I am. A student in Christ.

So no I havent experienced any pastors come up from the ground up. I know 3 guys who are on their way to being pastors, who know the word of God, but I disagree that they qualify.

One of the brothers is in his 40s and he is in bible college. Has his wife and kids. And they seem to be doing good. But he lacks in confidence to speak in front of people. And his application to scripture in context isnt very refined. Its hard to understand his points.

The other brother also is in his 40s but does not have a church he is rooted in. He is divorced from his wife, and his son is a typical teenager who wants new phones, video games and money from his dad. His son doesnt go to church. This doesnt seem to fit the mold of 1 Timothy 3. (Husband of one wife.)

The other guy might not even be a genuine Christian. Hes in his 50s and had demons cast out of him in front of an entire church that he got kicked out of. Has numerous children by numerous women and had been indulging in alcohol and women the last time I heard of him.

Either way these guys claim to be pastors. But I dont see how they qualify or that I agree. I may lack experience, but I make up for it in understanding.

You had mentioned a shortage of pastors? Well that may be due to the number of churches. There shouldn't be so many different churches and then maybe if we all congregated under one roof maybe we would all have the same men as our pastors and elders.

There are way too many denominations and doctrines to know what to do or which church to go to.

They can go the Pastor and His wife They are a team and they can give both perspectives of relationship difficulties. Male or female. Church is a place of worship and getting out the gospel. Not a place to solve relationship difference with the opposite sex which it had turned out when the change came

The reference was not so much what is taught at church. But what is said and what was happening because of the big change. The reformation had come turning the world upside down a tribulation for a Jew like never before or ever again. This brought both men and woman into the work place of worship where ceremonial laws could be performed. Laws had to be made so the focus could be on the gospel.

Believers men and woman alike can teach each other and hold out the gospel in a hope the Holy Spirit will teach them all things necessary and bring to mind that which he has taught us.

One is our teacher Christ. We do not look to men or woman as foundation of sharing the gospel .We are to call no man or woman in that way teacher on earth . One is in heaven and just as one is our father in heaven and we call no man on earth father .That honor is left for our unseen God alone. Even Jesus when called good master denied credibility based on what the eyes see and said only God (not seen) good .

That alone make me wonder why some say woman cannot teach men .Teach men what? the gospel ? Christ in heaven is the teacher .We as believers simply should look for ways for other to obey the loving commandment to study to show oneself approved of God.

No coomandement to seek the approval of men or woman. We are warned of those who do say we do need a man to teach us. That idea makes up the MO of the antichrists .