One taken,one left. The rapture.

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Jan 31, 2021
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Pure baloney
You were shown people there bodily.
Show me 'people there bodily' please.

btw, I think you'd be better served by joining "rapture forum.com". The owner of that site won't tolerate any other view. I joined, and posted in a thread 2 Thess 2:1 but without comment. That post got a number of "thumbs up". So I commented about that by asking if those who approved had thought through the verse, and what it was actually saying.

No snark, no nothing. Just a comment about a verse. Well, next time I tried to get on, I got a message that I was banned "for not being a good fit" for the forum.

Yeah, sure. I provided a verse that no one on that site could twist into anything other than a Second Advent with gathering.

I sure wasn't a "good fit" because instead of just drinking the kool-aid, I provided verses that refute the "rapture model".

But you will be loved there. You don't need any verses that prove the rapture theory.
 
Jan 14, 2021
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We all agree Jesus returns postrib.
1 thes 4 has nothing whatsoever indicating postrib rapture.
I find your interpretation confusing because 1 Thes 4:17-18 is one sentence in KJV which says:


1) The Lord comes down (Christ returns)
1a) the dead in Christ rise first
1b) caught up in cloud in the air (rapture)
1c) staying ever with the Lord

Either you disagree with 1) or 1b). I'm basically convinced that you don't have a coherent argument at this point, but if you do, please make sense of it.
 

GRACE_ambassador

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Feb 22, 2021
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I sure wasn't a "good fit" because instead of just drinking the kool-aid, I provided verses that refute the "rapture model".
Surely I will not be a "good fit" but I will give it a shot anyway!:

Part I

God’s PRE - TOJT Great GRACE Departure!:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
LORD JESUS, we beseech Thee Now For Thy Divine Understanding
In This Thy Most Important Doctrine For our Comfort And Consolation.
Amen. (1 Thessalonians 4:18)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With
The Second Coming
, is found in God's Context:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom
(“ages” past/future) (Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)

God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world”
(Matthew 25:34)

God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

Great GRACE Departure!

Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE, Is Found In:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)

God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9!)

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:4-11, 3:5-9!)
-------------------
The Second Coming, According to Prophecy:

(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew 24:29; Revelation 19:16, 11!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming On a white horse, With Crowns On
His Head, And A Sword In His Mouth! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(3) CHRIST Is Coming With, (which Were In Heaven!),
His armies * on white horses! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth With ONE army, * All Of His holy angels,”
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…
(Matthew 25:31; Revelation 19:11, 15)

(5) With Another trumpet (AFTER "the 7th angel trumpet in heaven), on
the earth, Angels Are SENT, By The KING, TO: “gather the elect”...
(Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27!)

(6)...for the “judgment of the Earthly Nations” By The Son of man, The King!
(Matthew 25:31-46!)

(7) Those Judged as righteous then enter the kingdom! And the UNrighteous
then Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!
(Matthew 25:34-46!)

to be continued...
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
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Part II

God's Prophetic Program, and second earthly coming

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians 1:19-23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The Trump of God! (1 Thessalonians 4:16!)

3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”
(2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:13!)

(4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep {in 3)} First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” {which
Is A Mystery!}, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The LORD in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52-53!)

(5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2, 5:1-2;
Ephesians 1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 4:18!)

6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans 2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1 Corinthians 3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:10;
Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:24-25!)

(7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians 5:27!)

(7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven
, Where we Live * Forever And Ever! Amen!
(1 Thessalonians 3:13; Colossians 1:5, 22;
1 Corinthians 6:3; 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 KJB!)

* Note, The ONE army Of The Body Of CHRIST, Must "have been
assigned our Heavenly positions" for ruling and reigning! Amen?
---------------------------------------------------------------
LORD JESUS, thank You so much for Your Precious BLOOD,
Gift Of Eternal Salvation
, And for Your Blessed Hope of
Glorification
When You Come To Finally Gather us Home! Amen.
---------------------------------------------------------
Please Be Very Richly Blessed, Encouraged, And Comforted! And:
Precious friend(s), see you In God's Great GloryLand!! ♫ 😇 ↑
 

Amanuensis

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Jun 12, 2021
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That is just absolutely amazing. The vulture language is definitely not something good. Read REvelation 19 to see what the vultures actually mean, they are eating the corpses of the people, not good, you dont want to be taken to that supper.
Read the text itself before you attempt to use another text to interpret it. It is a parable answer to their question using something familiar to nature. Jesus describes bird circling to a meeting place in the sky not on the ground and you have no authority to change his description.
There is no reason to assume that the use of vulture makes it automatically an allegory of evil people. It is more like a parable not an allegory. It is using something familiar from nature, which is the scene of birds (like buzzards) that circle in the sky in greater and greater numbers making quite a spectacle from the ground if you've ever witnessed it. The picture he is painting is not of them on the ground, but of the act of them gathering over a body long before they actually land.

36Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The people will be gathered to one location like when vultures circle in the sky when a body is on the ground. This natural phenomenon was familiar to them. It may be to you also. In some places you can lay still in a field and watch as vultures slowly circled high overhead. First one, then two then many all coming from different locations but gathering in the sky because they think there is a body below. Then after an hour you get up and walk away and they disband.

The text says he asked "where" meaning Where will they be taken too. And the answer he gets is a parable about vultures gathering in the sky. If you want to find another text that matches this it is more likely the one that says we will meet in the clouds in the air. This also paints a picture of a visible gathering in the sky.

So the question is, Was Jesus referring to vultures gathering in a circle in the sky because a body is spotted on the ground as a parable of something familiar in nature to answer the question where these taken will go next? Such as the believers meeting Jesus in the sky, Or was he saying that everyone in the world who is taken will be taken from their location, all over the world and deposited into some location in the Middle East to be eaten by birds on the ground?

If you prefer the second option I can't understand why as it makes no sense to me.

Since the raptured saints meet with the risen dead in Christ in the air, in the clouds it seems to me that the natural phenomenon of circling vultures that we have all seen is the answer to their question. That is what it will look like when the rapture occurs. Not a secret disappearing as some have imagined but a physical glorification of transfiguration and shining and then a gathering to a central point in the sky that people will observer from the ground. That central location will be where Christ is. The people on the ground looking at it will be those left behind.

This might not be the correct interpretation but it makes more sense to me than the idea that those taken are deposited to the Middle east to be eaten by vultures on the ground. That does not work at all.

I think that if you study this text you will find that most agree that Jesus was talking about the way vultures circle in the sky.

I doubt one could read two or three commentaries by textual experts and not discover that the circling in the sky of the vultures who find a body is the picture he is painting. Now what you think that means if you don't think it means the rapture is to be discussed, but the fact that Jesus was talking about circling birds in the sky is fairly agreed upon by the experts.

Why don't people use commentaries. It would avoid so many of the most obvious mistakes so that they can focus on the really challenging issues.
 

arthurfleminger

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Aug 18, 2021
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Thank you. I was told it started with the 1 Thess letter which the 2nd was supposed to clear up but didn't. Have you ever hear that or do you think they were making that up?
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 reads, “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.”
While this verse, as well as the similar 1 Corinthians 15, are often interpreted as referring to the Rapture, this is problematic, and far from certain. There seems to be nothing here that indicates that believers will be secreted off the planet. Rather, these verses seems to say that Christians will simply be glorified in some way at the Second Coming—“caught up” with Christ and made anew along with the rest of creation.
 

GRACE_ambassador

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Feb 22, 2021
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1 Thessalonians 4:16-17... ...this verse, as well as the similar 1 Corinthians 15, are often interpreted as referring to the Rapture, this is problematic, and far from certain.
Precious friend, did you possibly Miss posts # 423 and # 424?
Far from problematic, and close to Certain, eh?

GRACE And Peace...
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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This might not be the correct interpretation but it makes more sense to me than the idea that those taken are deposited to the Middle east to be eaten by vultures on the ground. That does not work at all.
Here's how I'm seeing it (and why I disagree with your take on it :) )

When they asked Him "WHERE [G4226 - 'at what locality'], Lord?"... (regarding the ones "taken" [which I believe are the lost / unsaved, at His Second Coming Rev19])...

... He responded with "WHEREVER [G3699 - 'at whichever spot'] there is a body / carcass, there also the vultures will be gathered together"...


... IOW, it sounds like that refers to "all over the planet" rather than that the bodies are gathered to one spot upon the earth first before the vultures can feast on them. Jesus didn't respond with "where [in a certain locality] that the vultures are gathered, you'll find the ones they'll be feasting on / bodies]"... He used the word "WHEREVER ['at whichever spot']" speaking of the carcass / body, "there also the vultures will be gathered together".


Just my two cents. = )
 

TheDivineWatermark

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As far as "Darby" being the INVENTOR of such an idea, that matter has been long debunked (aside from the biblical texts, which our discussions rarely bring many to "agreement")... here's a post I made some time back showing of others who spoke [/wrote] of a DISTINCTION [time-wise] between the timing of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" and that of His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 (tho some of us may differ in the specifics of how these folks understood it, they still saw the DISTINCTION [time-wise]):
Just to clarify, I'd meant to insert (but neglected to), that which I had intended to convey, "those who held to this WELL-PRIOR TO DARBY"

(he certainly was NOT the "inventor" nor the first to come up with this)
 
Aug 2, 2021
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1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 reads, “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.”
While this verse, as well as the similar 1 Corinthians 15, are often interpreted as referring to the Rapture, this is problematic, and far from certain. There seems to be nothing here that indicates that believers will be secreted off the planet. Rather, these verses seems to say that Christians will simply be glorified in some way at the Second Coming—“caught up” with Christ and made anew along with the rest of creation.
Everything is directly connected to and inseparable from and Ordered by God as written:
A.) His Coming/Return/Appearing
B.) the FIRST Resurrection = Glorified Bodies for the Just
C.) those who are alive at His Coming = rapture/caught up = last to receive their Glorified Bodies

Satanism is all about reversing/preventing/corrupting the Order of the Creation and His Coming.
A.) Woman over Man in the Garden onward to today = Harlot rides the Beast
B.) Antichrist appearing before the LORD's Return = replacing Christ = Bright Glorious Angel/Savior with a False Message & False Hope
C.) Antichrist glorified bodies is directly connected to the Mark and It's Technology
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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[re: 1Th4 and 1Cor15]
There seems to be nothing here that indicates that believers will be secreted off the planet. Rather, these verses seems to say that Christians will simply be glorified in some way at the Second Coming—“caught up” with Christ and made anew along with the rest of creation.
So, you hold to Amillennialism?


I agree that 1Th4 (in and of itself) does not disclose the TIMING issue (that is, what happens when in relation to what other thing / things); that matter is dealt with in other texts elsewhere.




[I'm referring to "caught up / SNATCH / rapture [G726]" in v.17 in relation, time-wise, to what other things... is not dealt with in 1Th4]
 
Aug 2, 2021
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Everything is directly connected to and inseparable from and Ordered by God as written:
A.) His Coming/Return/Appearing
B.) the FIRST Resurrection = Glorified Bodies for the Just
C.) those who are alive at His Coming = rapture/caught up = last to receive their Glorified Bodies

Satanism is all about reversing/preventing/corrupting the Order of the Creation and His Coming.
A.) Woman over Man in the Garden onward to today = Harlot rides the Beast
B.) False pre-trib rapture will deceive many and many will fall away
B.) Antichrist appearing before the LORD's Return = replacing Christ = Bright Glorious Angel/Savior with a False Message & False Hope
C.) Antichrist glorified bodies is directly connected to the Mark and It's Technology
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ @DavidTree , how do you explain Revelation 20:8 (speaking of the END of the MK age), saying, "...the number of whom is as the sand of the sea..." (speaking of those who Satan, when he will be loosed out from his prison at that point, "shall go out TO DECEIVE" [as his intention / aim / objective])? Who are all these "mortals" (in view of what we just discussed about Lk17's "WHEREVER" matter... re: the UNSAVED at the time of Christ's RETURN to the earth)





[for the readers: I see correlation between Dan2:35c / Gen9:1 "[actively] FILL / FILLED the [whole] earth" to that of Matt24 and Lk17's "as the days of Noah were, SO SHALL the coming of the Son of man be" (where ALL "Son of man coming / shall come / coming of / cometh / etc" speaks of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH [NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"]; and where Noah and crew were "left" (on the earth) to "FILL" it... in their mortal bodies, to do just that... just as in the "future" being spoken of in these texts)]
 
Aug 2, 2021
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^ @DavidTree , how do you explain Revelation 20:8 (speaking of the END of the MK age), saying, "...the number of whom is as the sand of the sea..." (speaking of those who Satan, when he will be loosed out from his prison at that point, "shall go out TO DECEIVE" [as his intention / aim / objective])? Who are all these "mortals" (in view of what we just discussed about Lk17's "WHEREVER" matter... re: the UNSAVED at the time of Christ's RETURN to the earth)





[for the readers: I see correlation between Dan2:35c / Gen9:1 "[actively] FILL / FILLED the [whole] earth" to that of Matt24 and Lk17's "as the days of Noah were, SO SHALL the coming of the Son of man be" (where ALL "Son of man coming / shall come / coming of / cometh / etc" speaks of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH [NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"]; and where Noah and crew were "left" (on the earth) to "FILL" it... in their mortal bodies, to do just that... just as in the "future" being spoken of in these texts)]
1.) How do you manufacture the rapture BEFORE His Second Coming???
2.) Are you an Apostle appointed by the LORD with additional revelation that changes the Order as it is Written???
3.) Was the Apostle Paul in error when he wrote: 1 Thess 4:13-18

Affirmation - But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep/died, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep/died in Jesus.

Before - For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep/died.

Christ - For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel,
and with the trumpet of God.

Dead 1st- And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Elevation - After that we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep/died.
The "presence / parousia [/ coming]" of the Lord, WHERE ?? (per the context);


"by no means PRECEDE [them...]" in WHAT MATTER ?? (per the context)






... and besides all that, you've not at all addressed the issue I laid out in my previous post, which proves to be problematic under your viewpoint's perspective (yet you've provided no answer to this problem).
 

TheDivineWatermark

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For this we say to you by the word of the Lord
Do you know what this ^ means?





[for the readers: the phrase "apostles and prophets" when spelled out in this order, speaks specifically of the NT "apostles and prophets"... Recall, Jesus had said, just b/f going to the Cross, "I have YET MANY THINGS to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them NOW, but WHEN..." (which is what we find disclosed in the NT books AFTER His resurrection / ascension / exaltation... see also 1Cor2:8)]
 
Jan 14, 2021
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While this verse, as well as the similar 1 Corinthians 15, are often interpreted as referring to the Rapture, this is problematic, and far from certain. There seems to be nothing here that indicates that believers will be secreted off the planet. Rather, these verses seems to say that Christians will simply be glorified in some way at the Second Coming—“caught up” with Christ
I suppose how it depends on how rapture is being defined. At the very least, the passage indicate believers being in the air (and rendered into an invulnerable state). That is the baseline for how rapture is usually defined.


So, you hold to Amillennialism?
Amillennialism in the RCC or some protestant faiths usually gravitates to the idea that Revelation is an allegorical account of happenings rather than a chronology of literal events. I haven't seen a silver bullet that would dismiss that perspective.

The parable of the Wedding Feast is accepted as figurative in the Gospels. Revelation points to a wedding. We can interpret this within the continuum of that parable (figuratively) or as a literal happening. It is possible that Revelation uses the language of different Biblical parables to express a deeper concept without necessitating that those parable elements become literal happenings.

I haven't seen a case for why amill would necessarily be untrue. I imagine there are different kinds of amill (some of which might genuinely be false), but for the sake of conversation let's assume we are talking about the RCC variant.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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Do you know what this ^ means?





[for the readers: the phrase "apostles and prophets" when spelled out in this order, speaks specifically of the NT "apostles and prophets"... Recall, Jesus had said, just b/f going to the Cross, "I have YET MANY THINGS to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them NOW, but WHEN..." (which is what we find disclosed in the NT books AFTER His resurrection / ascension / exaltation... see also 1Cor2:8)]
You have cracking up here............"Do you know what this means"

For all Readers please reference Post #434
 
Feb 24, 2022
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I just look at what Jesus FRAMED IT AS
" BEFORE THE FLOOD"

YOUR " 5MO" Deal somehow cancels Jesus words?
Your " 5mo" deal turns it into "After the flood noah is caught up into the sky"? ( as your doctrine declares?)

You have zero
You have no postjudgment removals by Jesus ,depicting the rapture.
All of Jesus pretrib rapture examples are;
Prejudgment,peacetime, and normal life.

You model is poorly thought out friend.
Sorry.
Now is pre-trib, where’s the rapture now? Are you posting this in heaven? Lol pre-trib is just a vague blanketing term with no clear definition. You’re just ranting and mocking all the time with no idea what you’re talking about. All versions of bible says FIVE MONTHS, not my model, but the WORD of GOD. Go gaslight in anyway you want. Hey, why don’t you go write your own bible translation?