The grace of God and the Law

[Pilgrimshope]

Could you give an example?

Much love!

Of ? The biblical warning ?

If so I was thinking about verses like this

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Jude‬ ‭1:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This happens in many ways but my entire point in that conversation with pine beach is “ if Gods grace is being explained and it requires us to reject the things Jesus taught his disciples in the gospel ….. that’s not the grace of God. His grace doesn’t lead us towards believing we don’t need to hear and obey his word but the opposite it constantly reminds us we need to hear and obey and be faithful so we will believe that way like this

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul is never trying to teach Christian’s “ you don’t need to obey the gospel now because you have faith “ he’s teaching Christian’s “ God has reconciled you through faith and forgiven your sins and made you new with his spirit and knowledge of Christ Jesus given in the everlasting gospel . …so that you can repent of serving sin which leads man to death and can walk upright lives before the lord now in this lifetime .

but when we fail and we sometimes surely all do and fall we need to do this and trust what it’s telling us !!

“If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:6-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

These types of things are important but often the grace message refuses anything we’re taught to do like even “ I’m already saved and forgiven for anything I do . I don’t need to repent and confess and be forgiven “ because that’s a work “ it’s not grace if I need to do what god said I need to do “

saying “ we’re saved by grace not works “ isn’t the same message as “ you aren’t required to obey God now because you have faith “ or “ you’ll never be judged by the things you do and say like Jesus and his apostles taught because I have grace “

biblically Paul’s stance on the words of Christ is pretty clear which is all I’m saying grace doesn’t erase or make anything Jesus said different but rether ….that’s where grace is found …. In the gospel he went to be preached to the world offering salvation .

This is the most important thing I’ve ever learned since believing summed up in two short verses

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, ( the gospel ) which is able to save your souls.

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It truly is a form a a self deception when we run up against him teaching us what to do and what will lead to salvation and what will lead to damnation , and then take a belief up that it’s not important enough that we need to actually believe and do it .

 

[Pilgrimshope]

This is Who I believe in. Why do we think we can do a single thing to impress God or add to His salvation? I'm not special but I think a little differently and when I see this as pictured in Revelation, I rejoice that I can do nothing. What could I possibly ever ever do to make any difference to this Being? Do you get the picture? Do we really understand all God did when sending His only begotten Son to die in our place because He loved us so much His heart could not stand the separation?

I don't know. Somehow in these days we have to get the picture of who God really is because things are closing in. I'm no prophet but how can we as believers be satisfied with the status quo? And I know that some resent me for pointing this out and saying these things. Who do I think I am? Actually I don't usually wonder about that at all. I'm too busy looking at someone Else because what else is there to live for when everything on this earth is temporary


John's Revelation

4 After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne. 3And he who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian, and around the throne was a rainbow that had the appearance of an emerald. 4;Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads. 5From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings and peals of thunder, and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God, 6and before the throne there was as it were a sea of glass, like crystal.

And around the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind: 7;the first living creature like a lion, the second living creature like an ox, the third living creature with the face of a man, and the fourth living creature like an eagle in flight. 8And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say,

“Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty,
who was and is and is to come!”
9And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11“Worthy are you, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they existed and were created.”

Amen …. Look what he said in the gospelabout being saved ! Since you believe in him don’t be afraid to approach and listen to his word and trust it like John the Baptist suggests in his little recognized ministry

“For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.


He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:34-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is what Jesus was saying

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We don’t want to reject his word in the gospel that’s what authors salvation …..we want to hear and learn from him and trust what he’s saying he’s the lord and is worthy of our trust

 

[Pilgrimshope]

OK. Let me try again. Perception can vary. Anyway

There is a conflict for some between God's grace and keeping the law to be in His grace. I tried to make this clearer in my post 26.

Of course saying 'grace' does not mean free to sin (although some people, who think law keeping is closer to God's heart despite the fact no one is sinless)

I am positioning myself from the biblical message of salvation/the gospel, meaning we cannot achieve salvation nor can we keep salvation nor can we add to salvation. All the glory goes to Jesus and He is our salvation and we cannot add to it.

Not talking about sanctification or obedience or anything in how we live our lives for Him/in Him....just the plain simple fact of Jesus being our justification and righteousness before the Father. The conflict I am trying to address is Jesus being complete salvation or do we need to do our part once saved, in keeping it

Even simpler: Is Jesus enough or do we need to complete our salvation

Note: I'm not talking about obedience or works we might do for God...just the most simple parts of an equation that people often do not agree on if this forum is any indication or even outside of it

“There is a conflict for some between God's grace and keeping the law to be in His grace.”


this is about as far as I could get without explaining what I’ve been saying has absolutely nothing to do with “the law of Moses or Israel’s old covenant……

were not told about obedience to the law infact when it comes up the apostles all agree it’s not required of gentiles


I’m talking about obeying the word of Christ in the gospel that’s promising salvation to believers ……where gods righteousness truly is found

obeying the gospel has nothing to do with Israel’s law

 

[markss]

Amy only point with that was just saying the word “ grace “ doesn’t change any of the doctrine Jesus and his apostles taught believers …..that type of grace that requires us to reject Jesus word about things isnt from God it’s the grace the Bible warns us about used to justify ongoing sinful lifestyle free of any guilt …..

What is the grace that causes whom to reject what exactly?

Are you saying Christians don't care about sin?

Have you ceased from sin? If yes, that's a different discussion, if no, then what are you saying?

What I'm really looking for from you is an example of Jesus' words that a Christian rejects because of their understanding of Grace, and what it is about their understanding of grace that leads to this rejection.

Much love!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

What is the grace that causes whom to reject what exactly?

Are you saying Christians don't care about sin?

Have you ceased from sin? If yes, that's a different discussion, if no, then what are you saying?

What I'm really looking for from you is an example of Jesus' words that a Christian rejects because of their understanding of Grace, and what it is about their understanding of grace that leads to this rejection.

Much love!

“What is the grace that causes whom to reject what exactly?“

lol what I’m saying is when someone is telling you “ your saved by grace” . That’s a good and true statement. If this sounds like gods grace that saves us

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If Gods grace is doing this it’s Gods grace . If the message is “ you no longer need to repent and obey God now because you are already saved by grace don’t believe this is true
which jesus taught
““Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭

Or the apostle Paul taught

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-8‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:30-31‬ ‭


“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

What I’m saying is really simple if my message of “ grace “ has to make things like that untrue or not applicable because of “ grace “ it’s not a message that’s coming from God

he doesn’t tell us something and then allow for us to remove it based on our own imaginations and ideas aboit a word like “ grace “ rather he remains faithful to the things he said in the covenant he’s made with people to the end .

a when our message requires us to reject Jesus and his apostles message even half of it , thisbis not the operation of God and his grace . His Will is always going to teach man ( who will listen ) to repent of thier sin and to do the good things that are meant for us to do . Grace should always have the message of our behaviors in it like Paul’s letters did

This is there in his letters

“ You are saved by grace through faith not of works “


bit also all the things I just quoted from Paul like eternal judgement according to our deeds ( Roman’s 2 ‭‭, 2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬, are in the epistles and rest of the scriptures ( john 5 … ect ect

Amy point is sinply that we shouldn’t creat a message that’s contrary to the one the New Testament repeatedly stated before and after Jesus died and rose and says will never pass away

We can’t remove Jesus word that he preached in the gospel to his disciples from our beliefs and call it grace

 

[markss]

Paul is never trying to teach Christian’s “ you don’t need to obey the gospel now because you have faith “

No, naturally,

Ephesians 4:1-2 LITV
1) Then I, the prisoner in the Lord, exhort you to walk worthily of the calling in which you were called,
2) with all humility and meekness, with long-suffering, bearing with one another in love,

Ephesians 4:22-24 LITV
22) For you have put off the old man, as regards the former behavior, having been corrupted according to the deceitful lusts,
23) and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24) and to put on the new man, which according to God was created in righteousness and true holiness.

Much love!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

What is the grace that causes whom to reject what exactly?

Are you saying Christians don't care about sin?

Have you ceased from sin? If yes, that's a different discussion, if no, then what are you saying?

What I'm really looking for from you is an example of Jesus' words that a Christian rejects because of their understanding of Grace, and what it is about their understanding of grace that leads to this rejection.

Much love!

“Are you saying Christians don't care about sin?”

not at all . I’m saying there’s a modern message of grace that tells them to not even acknowledge if they sin but thank god they are righteous …… and if anyone tells them “ they need to do what god tells us to do …. then it’s not grace “

another messages include the teacher explaining why the gospel Jesus preached and sent forth to all creation isn’t the actual gospel and only Paul’s letters apply . Usually it’s “ a message about “ Paul’s gospel “ or the “ grace gospel that Paul preached “ which isn’t the gospel Jesus said would be preached to all nations until the end …… but it’s just “ Jesus died and rose ! If you believe it means you’re chosen from the beginning to be saved there’s nothing you can choose , or do or not do to change it . But if you don’t believe Jesus died and rose you are predestined to be condemned and never had a chance ….

brother there’s some extremely cooky and really way off totally unbiblical grace messages that require a person to reject most of what the apostles actually taught because they were teaching believers what to repent of and what to do …..

 

[Pilgrimshope]

No, naturally,

Ephesians 4:1-2 LITV
1) Then I, the prisoner in the Lord, exhort you to walk worthily of the calling in which you were called,
2) with all humility and meekness, with long-suffering, bearing with one another in love,

Ephesians 4:22-24 LITV
22) For you have put off the old man, as regards the former behavior, having been corrupted according to the deceitful lusts,
23) and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24) and to put on the new man, which according to God was created in righteousness and true holiness.

Much love!

Amen exactly . But what do some grace messages insist upon constantly ? You don’t actually need to act and do anything you are already saved by grace. You don’t have to obey anything you can never lose your salvation now “

That’s sort of exactly my point entirely . Grace is good but it’s found as we hear the lord

“Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭15:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭5:32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What was he teaching these imperfect sinners who came near to hear him ? Stuff like this

“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom.

For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.


……And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.


But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38, 46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

thinking we don’t need to do anything now that we believe is like building our house in sand with no foundation . When the storms and floods come along it’s going to crumble and destroy all within

abut if we become discuples lewrning and following after sincerely from our hearts we’re building our house upon a rock and when the storms come along …. The house won’t budge and everyone inside will be safe and sound before and after the floods and storms

 

[pinebeach]

“There is a conflict for some between God's grace and keeping the law to be in His grace.”


this is about as far as I could get without explaining what I’ve been saying has absolutely nothing to do with “the law of Moses or Israel’s old covenant……

were not told about obedience to the law infact when it comes up the apostles all agree it’s not required of gentiles


I’m talking about obeying the word of Christ in the gospel that’s promising salvation to believers ……where gods righteousness truly is found

obeying the gospel has nothing to do with Israel’s law

Actually, the comparison is between grace and law keeping. That is the reference. I'm not talking about and the thread op isn't about obedience to Christ as a believer.

 

[pinebeach]

let's out a big breath

 

[markss]

Amen exactly . But what do some grace messages insist upon constantly ? You don’t actually need to act and do anything you are already saved by grace. You don’t have to obey anything you can never lose your salvation now “

That seems contrary to the whole idea of regeneration, that if someone is reborn, they will be different, not like uncaring unregenerate.

"You don't have to" is a fleshy thing, we are reborn a spirit. God is not holding death over our heads to make us obey.

I cannot agree that we in our works maintain the reconciliation brought to us by Jesus through His work. I don't want to derail this thread so I will leave it here.

Much love!

 

[markss]

d it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom.

For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.


……And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.


But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”

. . . again a reminder . . . this over-formating is hard on my eyes, when I see something like this I just scroll through it while glancing away . . .

 

[pinebeach]

I cannot agree that we in our works maintain the reconciliation brought to us by Jesus through His work. I don't want to derail this thread so I will leave it here.

Except....except....that is the basic simple question of this thread.

 

[pinebeach]

. . . again a reminder . . . this over-formating is hard on my eyes, when I see something like this I just scroll through it while glancing away . . .

It's considered shouting in every forum and on FB or anywhere really.

 

[pinebeach]

Amen exactly . But what do some grace messages insist upon constantly ? You don’t actually need to act and do anything you are already saved by grace. You don’t have to obey anything you can never lose your salvation now “

Why don't you just hijack the thread and make it all about your notes?

Oh wait. You already did.

I tried but it's like someone does not read English if someone else writes it

sigh


Actually, the comparison is between grace and law keeping. That is the reference. I'm not talking about and the thread op isn't about obedience to Christ as a believer.

It is not about 'cheap' grace or disobedience.

It is about people's understanding of salvation and whether or not we are saved by faith in Christ or we have to keep salvation by being 'good.'

 

[markss]

“Are you saying Christians don't care about sin?”

not at all . I’m saying there’s a modern message of grace that tells them to not even acknowledge if they sin but thank god they are righteous …… and if anyone tells them “ they need to do what god tells us to do …. then it’s not grace “

I guess I just don't know anyone like that.

another messages include the teacher explaining why the gospel Jesus preached and sent forth to all creation isn’t the actual gospel and only Paul’s letters apply . Usually it’s “ a message about “ Paul’s gospel “ or the “ grace gospel that Paul preached “ which isn’t the gospel Jesus said would be preached to all nations until the end …… but it’s just “ Jesus died and rose ! If you believe it means you’re chosen from the beginning to be saved there’s nothing you can choose , or do or not do to change it . But if you don’t believe Jesus died and rose you are predestined to be condemned and never had a chance ….

Well, Paul was in fact the apostle to the gentiles, and Jesus was in fact sent to the Lost Sheep of Israel. What do those things mean to you?

Jesus taught the Law to a people (the only people, actually) who were under the Law. Paul taught those who were not under the Law.

Jesus taught of the coming kingdom promised to Israel. That kingdom was not promised to the gentiles. Does that contexual their teachings?

About the choosing thing, I'm not reformed, as they say.

brother there’s some extremely cooky and really way off totally unbiblical grace messages that require a person to reject most of what the apostles actually taught because they were teaching believers what to repent of and what to do …..

Yeah, there are lots of false teachings. The fact is that God told differnent people different things at different times, and we need to consider such things.

For instance, no one here is building a ark, but why not? God commanded this, did he not? Noah, by faith, built the ark. Don't you have faith? Where is your ark?

I know, a silly example, but in fact this is the same things concerning the Law of Moses, which you know many defend to the bitter end that we are to keep it. Yet this was what God told that people in that time.

Abraham, who is called the father of the faithful, was not justifed by faith in Christ's death, for instance, but what does it say? "I will make you the father of many nations" while he yet had no children. Abraham believed God, and God accounted it to him for righteousness.

So we need to account for all these things.

Much love!

 

[markss]

Actually, the comparison is between grace and law keeping. That is the reference. I'm not talking about and the thread op isn't about obedience to Christ as a believer.

It is not about 'cheap' grace or disobedience.

I'll try to rein myself in . . . sigh . . .

 

[pinebeach]

I'll try to rein myself in . . . sigh . . .

No bother. I'm afraid it's like trying to herd cats with some people. I wouldn't encourage it at this point though.
Does just like I said. Takes over threads and makes them all about himself and ignores the actual op. Will also argue
until you say something he does not like and then you are just the most awful person ever. really.

been there done that and nada

 

[pinebeach]

We don’t want to reject his word in the gospel that’s what authors salvation …..we want to hear and learn from him and trust what he’s saying he’s the lord and is worthy of our trust

Jesus died and rose again for our salvation.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Actually, the comparison is between grace and law keeping. That is the reference. I'm not talking about and the thread op isn't about obedience to Christ as a believer.

Yep